Remote bush camping. Multiple questions

Submitted: Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 17:58
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I'm working on a rig which will give me around two weeks in the bush without suppy.

Question one: Its early days, but has anyone had bush experience with the new ARB 47L fridge please? Good and bad points.

I have a 40L Engel permanently secured in the car, and want to install a second fridge in the new camper trailer I’m buying. One will be used as a freezer and the other as a Frig.

Question two: I’m about to replace the second battery in the car with a Fullriver 100-110 amp/hr battery. A 40amp wire, and Anderson plug will be installed in the car to service the camper battery whilst on the road (the camper van is fitted with a 130amp/hr battery). Am I on the right track?

Question three: Can I plug the existing 80w solar panel into the above mentioned Anderson plug on the trailer, and expect it to provide a charge to the camper trailer battery once I’ve camped. Or do I have to get some other fancy wiring done?

Question four: Will a CTEK XS 7000 battery charger be suitable to charge a 130amp/hr battery (the supply source is a Honda 2Kva generator)?

Question five: In the new configuration, the water supply will consist of the following: 50L fresh water in the car, 80L fresh water in the trailer and 60L designated for Bore water (washing dishes and southern parts of the body etc). Does this seem I like a reasonable balance in your view?

Question six: I'll be purchasing a spare hub/drum and bearing kit from the dealer for $243 (Gaffa independent suspension). Do you reckon this is a fair price?

Regards

Kim
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Reply By: Member - Warfer (VIC) - Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 19:20

Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 19:20
Hiya Kim

Will only try answer your first Question and just a suggestion,Do not overlook the Evakool Units especially the RF60 model they do come in smaller sizes,They were at least 20 kilos lighter than the Engel 60l,very good on amperage too..Fantasic insulation in hotter climates..This advice is from experience..


Evakool

Goodluck with it all..
AnswerID: 356745

Follow Up By: Member - Warfer (VIC) - Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 20:33

Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 20:33
If interested there is a second Available in 40 size
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Reply By: Member - Mark E (VIC) - Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 20:10

Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 20:10
Kim,

Answers to questions as I can:

1. Cant help, have an Autofridge...... :-)

2. 40 amp wire....you would need to tell us the actual diameter of the copper core of the wire as not all "40amp" wires are created equal. I have undertaken a great deal of research into wiring 12 volts of all description and installed a VERY big twin core wire to the back of my car to charge the camper-trailer. From memory it is somewhere along the lines of 25mm sq diameter wire and has very little voltage drop along the run. The thinner the cable the more the voltage drop and subsequently the less charge will reach the camper batteries (in simplified terms...). The wire cost serious $$ but has been worth the extra as the batteries get about 90% charge after a long run when flattened by lights and fridge. Collyn Rivers" books on Motorhome and Campertrailer elecrics are fascinating reading. Let me know if you would like to borrow them..... I think you live close-by.

3. Providing you have an appropriate solar controller and the anderson plug attaches directly to the battery, I can't see any problem with attaching the 80 watt solar panel to the camper anderson plug. Sounds OK to me.

4. Yes CTEK 7000 will charge the 130 AH battery, with one caveat. If the battery is significantly flat, the 7000 charger at 7 amps will take quite a long time to charge it up. I have a CTEK 7000 and often use it to top up all my batteries including the starter, the aux battery in the car (Fullriver 120AH) and the camper battery (Fullriver 120AH). It works fine, but a little slow. May not charge a 130AH battery overnight if significantly flat. A 15amp or 25 amp would be better, but cost more $$.

5. Depends on how you use water and how many people you're servicing. If just yourself it sounds fine to me. Do you want to have 30 min hot showers???? If so, you may need to carry around a larger water tanker!!! Another option....camp by a billabong!!!

6. No idea about the price, but I carry spare bearings, races, grease and the tools to chage out a bearing by the side of the road, but not spare hub drums.... I can't envisage the need to be changing these out on the side of the road....so long as you look after the 'new' ones, you should be fine....others more experienced may disagree??? When I bought my CT, I changed the hub drums and stud pattern to suit my car and bought spare bearings etc, so I know they're new and looked after. So far, so good. From memory the whole shebang when I replaced both hub drums, bearings, plus spares, and new brake shoes cost about $500, so $243 sounds a fair price.

I hope this is of some help and I'm sure other 'guru's' will pipe up to offer their opinions. :-)

Cheers,

Mark
AnswerID: 356753

Follow Up By: Kim and Damn Dog - Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 20:49

Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 20:49
Gidday Mark

Your reply has been very helpful.

From what your saying, I should be considering the CTEK XS 25000 (although the cost needs to be considered).

I'm a bit confused about the wiring from the second battery to the Anderson plug at the back of the car.This is often refered to as amp capacity, or diameter (such as 6mm). Are you able to clarify the diffence?

PS I don't have too many showers in the bush. LOL

Regards

Kim
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Follow Up By: Member - Mark E (VIC) - Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 22:45

Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 22:45
Kim and DD,

Before I start I will say that 12 volt electical wiring for 4WD and campers can be a hot topic and some have very strong ideas on what works and what doesn't. If any type of heated debate follows, I'm outta here......... PM me if you wish any further opinion. Here's my further take on your questions........

XS2500 would be the best, but you could get away with the XS1500 depending upon how quickly you needed to charge your batteries and how flat you intend to let them get. If running this off a generator, I imagine you will want to limiti the genset run-time, so a higher capacity charger would be best and probably worth the extra $$ for you.

I never carry a generator and only occasionally go to caravan parks, so rely on the car to charge the camper and car aux batteries (total 240AH). I have the capacity to stay in one spot for about 3 days with the one fridge and a few lights and running the HF radio a little, depending upon weather and not discharging everything down to the barest minimum, say about 50%. I also don't have any solar panels as yet.....though when the budget allows..... :-(

Gas fridge much better proposition if staying put for any length of time without adequate solar supply.

In regards to the wiring from the second battery to the Anderson plug, this is my take on it....

Cable sizes and terminology is a bit of a minefield, not worth getting bogged down in. Forget the amp capacity as it's really irrelevant in our situation. The best way to understand it is to think about voltage drop. Basically the more current (amps) carried by a cable length and the longer it is, the greater will be the voltage drop.....(hence long distance electricity transmission lines run at 330,000 volts!!!)

Firstly, you need to figure out how much emphasis you wish to put on the capacity of the car alternator to charge both the camper and car aux battery. If you will be relying on this PRIMARILY to charge this battery from a relatively flat (say 50%) state, then your wiring will need to be top notch, with heavy duty cables, good quality connections and Anderson Plugs, so that the batteries receive a decent charge voltage and it will still take some hours of driving to charge the amp-hour capacity of batteries you have. Those that tell you to just plonk 6mm cable there and don't get carried away....blah blah... haven't REALLY studied the effect of voltage drop over cable length and the effect on battery charging. So just get the heaviest cable you can afford to, plus 2 x 175 amp Anderson Plugs (you will need these big mothers to fit the larger cables in) appropriate terminals and a circuit breaker or maxi-fuse for protection.

On the other hand if you are going to be spending most of your time camping where there is access to 240v power (or generator with charger) and you are happy for the batteries to be recharged PRIMARILY via this method, I wouldn't worry about spending so much time and money arranging a heavy duty charging system from the alternator. Just stick thinner cable there and accept the voltage drop. The batteries will charge, but never very well, never fully and whatever charge gets to the batteries will take a very long time. That's the trade-off. It's horses for courses.

I hope I haven't confused you more. Feel free to pop around to Edithvale and have a gander at how I've set up mine if you wish or PM me for further if you would like.....

Cheers,

Mark


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Reply By: Member - Duncan W (WA) - Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 20:12

Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 20:12
Kim had a mooch around Annaconda today and their appeared to be a sale on Engels. Saw a review on the ARB but it was sponsored by ARB, so could of been biased. Good report BTW.
Dunc
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AnswerID: 356754

Reply By: Willem - Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 20:56

Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 20:56
KIm

I will stay out of the technical side of things

We have a 32lt Engel and Two Zone on top giving 55 lts and also a 15lt Engel installed giving 70lts fridge space. Run both fridges on Freeze at all times.

Your water seems OK. For our upcoming trip we are carrying 140lts per vehicle based on 14 days between water points. This isn't a sure thing as we are making for waterbores which may or may not have water at a reasonable depth. Nevertheless we cannot waste water until we find a reliable source. This trek is 30 days between food outlets and fuel bowsers so a hell of a lot of thought and organisation is going into the logistics

Spare essentials for trailer should include wheelbearings and seals. Also make sure you have a decent jack for lifting the trailer.

Cheers
AnswerID: 356760

Follow Up By: Kim and Damn Dog - Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 21:42

Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 21:42
Gidday Willem

It’s interesting you talk about the essentials. A mate and I went down to have a further chat with the fella who I’m buying the trailer off today.

At one point I asked him if there was a decent jack supplied with the trailer. The answer was no.

Two good quality bottle jacks have gotten me out of some trouble in the past, so I'll need to purchase another one shortly.

Have a good trip.

Regards

Kim


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Reply By: Best Off Road - Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 21:36

Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 21:36
Kim,

I'd borrow Mike's Chescold 1180 and give that a run. Two weeks, one gas bottle, no farting around with batteries.

Just a thought.

Cheers,

Jim.

AnswerID: 356763

Follow Up By: Kim and Damn Dog - Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 22:04

Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 22:04
Gidday Jim

Hope everything is going well with you.

I hear what you say, but from experience I’m not all that confident with three way fridges in the rough.

Up in the High Country where the travel is relatively slow their alright, but across heavily corrugated tracks I haven’t found them to be all that reliable.

PS Where is the silly old buggar? haven't heard from him in ages


Regards

Kim
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Follow Up By: Best Off Road - Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 at 09:22

Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 at 09:22
Kim,

I haven't spoken to him since Christmas.

That CTEK 7000 will need to run for hours each day.

I run an 80L fridge, with a similar sized solar panel to yours and still need to run a 17 amp battery charger for 2-3 hours each afternoon. The charger I bought (2 years ago) is a three stage Calbre brand from Supercheap, about $200. Probably not as sophisticated as your CTEK, but doesn't need to be for daily charging.

Add one of those to your current 7000 and you've got 24 amps total. Then use the CTEK at home constantly connected to the camper battery to maintain it.

Cheers,

Jim.

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FollowupID: 624890

Reply By: Member - JohnR (Vic) - Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 22:17

Saturday, Mar 28, 2009 at 22:17
Kim, despite what has been suggested above, I have heard it argued by suppliers that for an 80 watt panel you could just plug it into your Anderson plug. The 17 volt open circuit is that. Your battery will be a load and so it won't be open circuit. With your fridge on it too, it takes some of the load. The 80 watt solar will be under 5 amps in it's contribution, so should help with the fridges.

I know that I will have comments against what I say above, but I have used 160 watts into my Karavan battery pack without a regulator for days at a time. The reason it isn't at the moment is because I get a check readout through the solar regulator as well as in the sophisticated battery monitor on the dashboard of the Karavan.
AnswerID: 356773

Reply By: Bob of KAOS - Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 at 00:41

Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 at 00:41
Kim

Fridge in trailer? Depends on trailer but can be very traumatic.

Even if the contents survive, the compressor and its mounts may not.

Bob
AnswerID: 356785

Reply By: RV Powerstream P/L - Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 at 09:09

Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 at 09:09
Kim
I hope this helps.
Assume a 20Ft run from your cranking battery to the trailer the voltage drop and a 20A supply the voltage drop can be calculated as follows.
EG: a 6MM auto cable is 4.5MM2 or 10GGE in round terms.

3.6V drop is an indistry acceptable standard for 12V

10GGe Cable over 20Ft @20A gives 0.822V drop
8 GGE cable over 20Ft @20A gives 0.517V drop
6 GGE cable over 20Ft @20A gives 0.325V drop
6GGE Cable is the largest to use with 50A Anderson Plugs.
50APlugs will take 10GGe,8GGE and 6GGE Contacts
4 GGE cable over 20Ft @20A gives 0.204V drop.
2 GGE cable over 20Ft A20A gives 0.129V drop
2GGE Cable is the largest for 120A Anderson Plugs
120A Plugs will take 6GGE ,4GGE and 2GGE contacts.

175 Amp plugs will take 4GGE,2GGE and up to 1/0GGE contacts.

All the above cableswill still charge a needy battery but the length of time to charge gets longer with voltage drop so the least drop the best charge.
Now if your alternator can give you 40A.
10GGE over 20Ft @ 40A gives 1.643V drop
8 GGE over 20Ft @ 40A gives 1.033V drop
6 GGE over 20Ft @ 40A gives 0.650V drop
4 GGE over 20Ft @ 40A gives 0.409V drop
2 GGE over 20Ft @ 40A gives 0.257V drop
To summarise if your output is 20A you should use 6GGE Cable minimum but if your output is 40A you should use 3GGe cable minimum.
Just think again the higher the amps the greater the volt drop the smaller the cable the higher the volt drop the larger the volt drop the longer it takes to charge your battery.

Ian
AnswerID: 356805

Follow Up By: Member - Mark E (VIC) - Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 at 12:52

Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 at 12:52
Ian,

Are you serious about 3.6v voltage drop? To me this seems excessive as I'm sure my fridge wouldn't work too long with this kind of setup. If we consider 12.8 as fully charged... minus 3.6 would be 9.2v. I have my cutout set at 11.5v, to protect my batteries.

Do you really mean 0.36v? I have heard a figure of 3% (Collyn Rivers) being considered acceptable.

Cheers,

Mark
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FollowupID: 624936

Follow Up By: RV Powerstream P/L - Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 at 15:51

Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 at 15:51
Mark Sorry it is supposed to be 0.36 V drop.
Thank you for correcting me .
I think it would be evident in reading the figures and the cable sizing stated but there is no excuse for not checking what was typed.
Regards
Ian
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FollowupID: 624959

Reply By: time waster - Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 at 09:11

Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 at 09:11
Hi Kim I have the same set up 80w panel and a regulator fixed to the underside of the panel (reg a must) with 6m of 6m2 cable with an anderson plug attached and can plug straight into car or van and also put an amp meter on the panel so I can see what is going in.

Also fitted another anderson plug to the front of the car direct to second battery so that can leave the car and van connected and charge both.

Made up a anderson plug with a short lead with alligator clips for direct connections.
AnswerID: 356807

Reply By: Member - John and Val W (ACT) - Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 at 17:31

Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 at 17:31
Kim,

I'd agree with most of the above, but there is a way around the cable size issue which might be worth looking into. There is a charger made by Arrid that takes the available vehicle voltage and boosts it up to what's required for charging. They aren't cheap, but they do allow full charging of a battery from the vehicle in spite of voltage drop in the cabling. From memory the Arrid units deliver, from a lower voltage, preset current up to 20A at the required voltage. There is a smaller unit (7A??) made by Engel (?) which does much the same job - these are about $120.

Check out the Arrid unit here

HTH

John
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AnswerID: 356888

Reply By: Kim and Damn Dog - Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 at 18:02

Sunday, Mar 29, 2009 at 18:02
Many thanks to everyone for your advice. This once again demonstrates the value of the site.

In response to a couple of comments:

I’m limited in the size of the refrigerator, because the storage area in the trailer was designed to accommodate a 40L Engel. Apparently the new ARB refrigerator has similar dimensions but an extra 7L in capacity.

In some respects I’m also a little concerned about the longevity of a refrigerator in a trailer. Therefore a piece of high density black rubber will be placed beneath the refrigerator, and tied down using a method I’ve yet to decide on.

From the advice I've received, I’ll upgrade to a CTEK XS 25000.

Regards

Kim
AnswerID: 356896

Follow Up By: Sigmund - Monday, Mar 30, 2009 at 08:01

Monday, Mar 30, 2009 at 08:01
As for the charger, check out Ozcharge. Much cheaper.

My sparky's been fitting them for 2 years to vans and CTs and has not had a problem.

I had him fit a 16 amp job in my battery box; unit cost is $200.
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