Toho 9000 Oil Conditioner

Submitted: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 at 09:15

ThreadID: 69226 Views:7059 Replies:2 FollowUps:7

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Member - John M (NSW)

At 100,000 kms I added the Toho 9000 Oil Conditioner system to my Nissan GU 4.2 turbo after cooled ute.
The conditioner was added to engine, gearbox, transfer case, both diffs and power steering.
Toho claim that this conditioner is good for at least 200k kms although I am scheptical about this. They also claim to increase fuel economy, power, smoothness etc. etc.
We have all heard these stories before.
Before I agreed to use this product Toho promised to take oil samples for testing at 5000 km intervals. (at their cost) The first sample has been taken after 6500kms and I am awaiting the test results.

To report to date the Nissan is certainly smoother in all running manners from the engine to gear changes although I doubt that I will see any significant changes during 4wdriving.

The most significant difference that I have found to date is fuel economy.
Prior to adding the conditioner to my vehicle I was getting mostly around the 10.5 litres to 100 kilometers in across the board driving conditions. (motorway, urban and city driving) with the truck in its current setup weighing 3.4 tonnes. (not loaded)
Having done a test this week on the economy the results this morning are as follows: -
- distance travelled - 505.4 kilometres
- fuel consumed - 60.4 litres
= 8.36 litres per 100 kilometres

A saving of over 2 litres per 100 kilometres.
I thought this was significant and should let you know of this product.
It costs about $380.00 for a complete system conditioner and at the lower fuel usage, cost of oil changes etc this product appears to be of good value. I am interested to get the oil analysis results to check on oil condition and engine wear etc.
I am very particular about oil and filters and always change both at 5000 km intervals. I have owner the Nissan from new and it has never used any oil.

Maybe this product and information is of interest to other members.
I have no interest or affiliation with Toho 9000.
Most service people have no interest in this product as they lose out on oil changes etc although it does not reduce the requirement to carry out other scheduled servicing.

A couple of my mates are maintenance superintendents for a bus company and a council who use this product and the buses are changing oil after 150,000 kms and the council is changing oil in their street sweepers after 2500 hours.

I hope this is of interest.
Regards John

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Reply By: Peter McG (Member, Melbourne) - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 at 10:37

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 at 10:37

Slight correction John:

- distance travelled - 505.4 kilometres
- fuel consumed - 60.4 litres
= 8.36 litres per 100 kilometres

60.4l used to cover 505.4km = 11.95l/100km

Cheers

Peter

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Follow Up By: Member - John M (NSW) - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 at 10:50

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 at 10:50

Thanks Peter
You are correct, I was using the wrong math calculation for both consumptions.
This would make the original consumption figure of just over 14 litres per 100 k's. I will check my log book tonight to double check these figures.
Regards John

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Reply By: Flywest - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 at 12:06

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 at 12:06

John,

It would be "interesting" to me if you would post your Used Oil Analysis results please (as I have a 4.2 liter 1HD-T Cruiser with LPG fitted) and have kep UOA analysis results - which might make an interesting comparison maybe.

I've long been "a snake oil slaesman" sceptic.

I spent a bit of research effort on getting tit he bottom of 2 claimed oil additives / conditioners, Bitron & Marvel Mystery Oil.

It turns out that - if you really want to - you can google the MSD's (Material Safety Data sheets) for these chemicals online.

These MSD's require the constiuents to be listed so that anyone using them can assess the risks of poisoning or explosion if damaged in transport etc etc.

That way - the contents no longer become a mystery, and anyone can cut and paste them here for all too see.

The Bitron was an interesting case study - largely the active ingredient is Chlorinated Parrafin.

That particular substance, is a cuting oil used in the tooling industry - which has some most unusual characteristics.

It's characteristic is that it is attracted to heat, and a good lubricant, most oils thin with heat, and disperse away from the frction causing heat location, exacerbating the friction and heat - Chlor Parafin is the opposite. In being attracted to heat, the more friction of cutting you apply the more the lubricantis attracted to the heat source and the better it lubricates and cools.

This is ideal wghen lathe cutting tool steels for example.

You can imagine that in an engine application, and bearing that was getting hot thru lack of oil would attract the Chlor parafin, thus increasing lubrication and cooling the bearing - a great way to avoid a lot of excess wear damage in an engine - sort of an insurance policy against excessive bearing wear.

Anyway - Chlor Parrafin is cheap to buy in bulk for the tooling industry, but rebottle it and lable it a trade name like "Bitron" and us 4wd folks will buy it at maybe 1000% markup as some mystery marvel goo - and you'll never have to work again, add a pyramid marketing scheme to it - and likely you can move to waterfront luxury on the gold coast in Qld and have a big boat too.

The sad thing is - that chlorine (the chlorinated part of the chlor parrafin) when it combines in the sump with the gasses of combustion that blow bye the rings, forms Hydrochloric acid, which in turn will prematurely use up early, the amount of "base" add pack the oil manufacturer added to the oil, and THEN lead to possible corrosion within your engine.

IF Chloro parafin was considered a good addtivie for sump oil in internal combustion engines - the oil co chemists who post at BITOG (Bob IS THE Oil Guy) Forums in the USA assure me they would add it as standard too the base oil stocks when they forulate our sump oils for the oil companys.

The reason they don't - is because - they are worried about the acidic consequences.

Obviously the marketers of "Bitron" product aren't worried about this aspect!, Or they wouldn't market it to be added too engines sump oil.

Those same oil co chemists willingly admit that adding Chlor Parrafin (Bitron) to say gearboxes and diffs where there are no combustion bypass gasses, is probabaly a damned good idea!

This is IMHO a case where the co selling the stiff don't give a rats about you or your engine - tyhey just want to sell product and the more the better. IF they had any morals - they would ONLY sell it for diffs and gearbox oil additives, where it can only help and not do any harm.

To do so would cruel them financially - because a LOT more oil is used and sold for sumps than gear cases and diff housings and sumps oil is changed a LOT more frequently.

So...theres a case of a product that 'used correctly' MIGHT be a damn good thing - but due to fiscal reasons is possibly being used for the WRONG purposes!

Say I were to market water instead of as H2O - but to take it out of the tap, put it into bottles and label it a fancy name (EVIAIN) and put 1000% markup....would people be Niaive enough to fal for the trap and buy it?

I guess the fact that millions of $ worth of Eviain is sold every day is testimony to the fact that people generally are niaive (EVIAIN) spelled backards is NIAIVE!

The company involved quite overtly succeeed in the market place with a brand name that shows how stoopid their customers really are!

Marvel Mystery Oil?

I forget exactly now, but it turned out to be nothing more than a blend of Auto Trans Fluid, Kersene or white spirits or something.
(Do the Google MSDS Search for Marvel Mystery Oil for yourself.

Marvel Mystery Oil made a US family fortune multi generational company for someone in the USA for over 50 years with the "secret recipe".

People are a little gullible.

The products may or may not do all thats claimed.

At the end of the day - we can just take a punt and feel good or not its up to each of us to decide.

Me - I'd like to look at the MSD's for this new product you mention and see what it turns up.

Maybe I'll ppost again into this thread with what I find.

Thanks for the headsup - I guess I enjoy this type of thing - getting to the bottom of such claims - and oils is a bit of a hobby of mine.

Cheers

AnswerID: 366952

Follow Up By: Flywest - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 at 13:06

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 at 13:06

Ok - that was "interesting" 5 or 10 minutes invested.

I had a look at their website - hoping to find MSDS sheets for the product - but no go.

That means effectively the product is illegal for sale in Australia - because it doesn't meet Australian standards which require the MSDS sheets be available for transporters and for users.
(Emergency Authorities, Aust Post, etc require MSDS be available to determine accident response when theres a spillage - to determine risk of combinations of chemicals, to explosion and poisoning etc Aust Post need to know the flashpoint to determine of it can be posted or transported by air).

Next - the only reference is too esters and di-esters as any mention of the actual constituents.

Next - there is a link to their "web forum" for TOHO 9000 Oil...
This is the link!

http://forum.toho9000.com/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=6b775f5770cd33556cca34bfb1f447d8

The posted topic headings on the front page of their forum are:-

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etc
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I am sure you get the idea - the whole forum is illegal sales of viagra and links to porn websites, hardly a reputable advertisement for the snake oil salescompamy pedalling this product!!!.

Their webite http://www.toho9000.com/ actually contains quite a few english grammer mistakes, but also some factual mistakes about oil and oil lubrication and specifically standard engine oil filters.

[quote]
The dispersion/dissociation effect of TOHO 9000 will cause the oil particles diameter to be less than 1 micron. The oil filter will not be blocked even after a long usage (the size of the filter’s pore is one micron). Since the oil particles do not stick to the filter, it can reduce oil consumption and keep the environment clean by huge reduction in waste oil disposal. If TOHO 9000 is added to regular engine oil, oil filter’s life span can be extended 4 to 10 times longer. Even though the sludge carbon will float in the oil as micro particles, causing the colour of the oil to turn black, this does not mean that the oil has degraded. It still remains useful.
[/quote]

The above is quite false - with regards to the particle sizes of soot (carbon) within the oil and what an oil filter will stop - most standard filters allow everything below about 25 microns to pass straight thru.

I have a special wound cotton Bypass oil Filter fitted in addition too the standard ol filter, on my F truck and this one is a sub micron bypass filter - it will stop particles down to about 2 or 3 microns and less.

All oils contain a dispersant within their add pack, designed to keep soot particiles in suspension until the specified oil drain time - this helps to stop sludge build up & agglomeration of soot particles into larger particles - they also contain a detergent to wash the soot particles off the cylinder wall surfaces and other surfaces inside the engine for the dispersant to then keep the soot in suspension.

Ther website makes it SOUND as tho generic brand sump oils don't contain any add pack at all and as tho THEIR goo is actually doing the job of the oil company add pack the oil already contains, which is just plain wrong.

I also looked at some of their posted used oil analysis results with the treatement in - and if I were getting wear metal results as high as those I would be VERY worried.

Simply the results weren't even half as good as what i get using Delvac 1 fully synthetic - and I am not happy with my Delvac results so I'd be mortified with the results they post as good.

I am really sorry to say that this stuff raises my "snake oil suspicion" hairs on the back of my neck waaay up.

To me this LOOKS a LOT like one of those scam or phishing websites where maybe you order stuff and pay for it online and it never shows up and you've done your dough.

I remain to be convinced with this one - a 200 liter drum of the stuff, lists at $60,000 bucks!!!!!!

Who in their right mind would pay that for an oil additive that claims to do just what the oil companys oil additive pack already does?

I would want a material safety data sheet before I had any transported too me, and before I allowed any employee to handle the stuff, I am required by law to do that to protect my workers safety under Occ Health & Safety laws!

The company is obligated by law to provide those, when they do - we can LOOk at the contents of the product and what it really does or does not do.

The obviously chinese or asian background company to this product has me very sceptical of just another snake oil sales scam.

Caveat emptor is my advice after a brief looksee!

Cheers

FollowupID: 634630

Follow Up By: Member - John M (NSW) - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 at 14:02

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 at 14:02

Hi Flywest
It appears you are certainly more versed and educated on oils than most of us, especially me.
I did not purchase the toho 9000 on the internet but from a local company.
I agree with your comments on the MDS and have contacted them for a copy which I will forward to you when received. They should have been sent with the product and should be readily available.
The product is reported to come from Japan and the representative selling this product has many high profile company references, reports and data sheets supporting this product and after being told by my friends about this was the main reason I agreed to try it.
I will send you a copy of the oil analysis sheet when I receive it in the next few days if you send me your contact details.
The company that distributes this product and Aust. & NZ agents are Bilbis Holding Pty Ltd T/A Toho Australia. They are located in Rosebery NSW.
All your constructive comments are taken on board as well as the scheptism. All I know is that so far after 6500kms there has been a significant reduction in fuel consumption in my vehicle and it certainly runs smoother.
Regards John

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Follow Up By: Bushwhacker - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 at 18:13

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 at 18:13

Hi Flywest,
A very well written reply to John's thread.
As John has said, he didn't buy the Toho 9000 from a porn site, but a local supplier. Google and other search engines often come up with many sites that are totally unrelated to the search requested.
I, like you, dislike 'snake oil salesmen', but at least John is dealing with a local face, and taking into account reports from reliable (to him) sources. I feel he can do no more than listen to the reports, and decide for himself.
The information you have offered is way over my head, so I guess if I was sceptical, I could figure you were just telling me whatever it is YOU want to promote, as I don't know any better. Not much different to a 'snake oil salesman', but I believe your heart is in the right place, and you are not trying to sell me anything, rather, you are trying to warn me and others of the possible 'dangers' in such a 'foolish act', such as purchasing this system. The information is great, if you understand what it means.
MSDS are required by law to be made available ON REQUEST, nothing says they have to put it on the internet.
Does 'sub micron' mean 'less than' micron? If so, why would your special wound filter only trap 2-3 micron soot? Should it not trap 1 micron stuff?
'Whacker

FollowupID: 634696

Follow Up By: Madfisher - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 at 21:09

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 at 21:09

Hi flywest,
very interesting data on bitron. I have found it excellent in automatic transmissions as you suggest.I have used it in 7 diff vehicle engines and have experienced smoother, and more economical running. But I think you are right about forming acid. I had a 2.6 Jack which had bitron in the engine for 130000ks, just prior to selling it at 218000k I noticed the oil pressure was taking longer to build, so could have been the start of bearing wear. Although the young fellow I sold it to covered another 50000ks before writing it off. However I will not be putting it in my car engine in future.
I think it would still be good as an engine flush as it certainly cleans soot etc out of diesels and petrol engines.
Thanks for the info
Cheers Pete

FollowupID: 634742

Follow Up By: Flywest - Friday, May 29, 2009 at 19:21

Friday, May 29, 2009 at 19:21

1. I am definitely not selling or recommending anything to anyone.

2.[quote]Google and other search engines often come up with many sites that are totally unrelated to the search requested.[/quote].

The link I posted is to the web forum shown on the companys website - it isn't some errant google search result. You go to the companys web site, you hit their "forum" link and all the topics listed above (& more), are shown as posted. Look at the forum site and you'll see the link includes the companys product web site as part of its address.

I just said that I find it questionable that a legitimate companys website and forum would allow such posts from purveyors of illegal schedule 4 & 8 drugs as well as porn content, - maybe they don't have a moderator for their forum and have no idea what trash others have posted there - but that would be a little "unprofessional" for a "legitimate" product purveyor.

We have no way of knowing what the contents of the brew are (and thus what it might do) without MSDS sheets.

$60,000 for a 44 gallon drum of the stuff seems a little expensive to me.

With regard to my after market (oilguard) sub micron filter, they are marketed as removing particles down to below 1 micron and possibly do - however I've seen posted results of oil samples where some 1 & 2 micron particles were present, so accept that the adverttised claims might be slightly better than real world useage results.

These two quotes from the oilguard websote speak volumes about the ability of filters (including their own sub micron one)

[quote]· Oil samples at the inlet and outlet of the filter were taken every ten minutes. Contaminates in the oil were measured and the percentage of contamination removed by the filter was computed to determine filter efficiency.[Bold]The smallest particle measurable with this test is two microns.[/Bold] [/quote]

And

[/quote]
WHAT THE TEST RESULTS SHOWED:

The single pass efficiency of the OilGuard filter is over 92 percent at two microns.[/quote]

You can see that although they sell these filters as "Sub Micron", yet their own tests are only capable of measuring down to 2 microns.

These tightly woven cotton wound filters do trap many sub micron particles and they also allow a few to get thru or past, and testing is only effective really down to 2 microns in most cases so it is hard to be "definitive" about the claims made.

What i do know is that your standard paper element oil filter only stops particles down to about 25 microns and the website for this magic goo - states as I quoted that these "normal filters" trap particles down to 1 mocron and thats simply not true - or os perhaps deliberately misleading?.

I am just posting what I understand to be true - I am not disputing Johns first hand experience with the product.

As I tried to show with the Bitron Example, the Mystery Marvel Oil example and the Eviain examples, sometimes cheap products (Chlor Parrafin in the Bitron Example, Water in the Eviain example and Auto Trans fluid in the Marvel Mystery Oil example), in tough economic times - some unscrupulous people, will re-lable a cheap readily available product, like the 3 examples I used, and create a slick marketing campiagn, to sell the same to the average guy in the street who hasn't had the time or inclination to do any research on the subject, for a quick buck.

That is just the way the workd is.

If I knew what the MSDS data was for this product - we could look at the properties of the constuents, and get some idea how they work and perform the claimed miracle results that they advertise.

Without that data, we really can't make any headway one way or another is the way I see it.

I am not against "new technologies" at all and IF ths stuff is god - 'd like to know what and be able to explain it to others and happily reccomend it too others.

Case in point the Marvel Mystery Oil.

It was a great product for 50 years for old technology petrol engines, it did do wonders, and the product and family owned company that marketted it made family dynasty fortune for some people in the US.

50 years later when legislation required MSDS to be published - the many millions of happy cutomers realised they paid a LOT of $ for the product when theyCOULD have bought auto trans oil and white spirits or whatever - and got the same results.

Same with Bitron IMHO _ all it is is Chlor Parrafin which is a cheap bult availa;e cutting oil for the tooling industry - but in the way Bitron relable and re bottle and market it - then it too - retails at similar $60K to the 44 gal drum price.

I see a few "similarities" in the examples of Bitron and this new product is all - and that raises my suspicions.

I want to know a little more about what goes into my engine if it isn't what the manufacturer recommended in the owners manual for warranty reasons etc.

I guess there will always be gullible people around.

Cheers

FollowupID: 635114