At first I thought this may be a littlle O/T, but on reflection I think a lot of

Submitted: Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:03
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Good evening all

I though I'd have a look at the government rebate for replacement HWS.

The rebate seems straight forward, I think,but unless I missed something the installation may be additional.

While I know that solar systems are pretty effective in summer and not so in winter I still lean towards that system as my replacement.

However, I am also interested in the heat pump system produced by Rheem, Edwards and Quantum.

Unfortunately I have only found a handful of independent comments on these heat pumps and they are very mixed, especially about noise and reliabability.

Can anyone offer any information on which system is better than the other and why.

I hope the moderator is interested in this topic as well.

Your help would be really appreciated.

Regards BooBoo
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Reply By: Sir Kev & Darkie - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:22

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:22
Have you looked at the gas instantaneous units??

We have one that runs off the 45kg LPG bottles, for a family of 4 we go through 3 bottles a year and I have long showers LOL

Cheers Kev
Russell Coight:
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Follow Up By: Member - Boo Boo (NSW) - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:44

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:44
Sir Kev

Should I really take notice of someone with poor dress sense?

Fancy a bloke wearing a reddy colour shirt in public..........Go the Blues. LOL

Your gas setup sounds OK. I will also have a look at the pros and cons of that.

Thanks mate.

Regards BooBoo
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Follow Up By: Member - barry F (NSW) - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 18:00

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 18:00
It's a good point Kev, we use bottled gas for home heating & have not considered it for hot water. The only problem is with gas is it's like vehicle fuel & keeps getting more expensive.
Last year we were charged $85 per 45 Kg Cylinder delivered & this year they delivered one a few days ago & the cost was a little over $95. Makes you wonder how they justify a 10% increase when most of our incomes dont go up by 10%.
& Boo Boo take notice of his outfit, I reckon he his one of those cross dressers. LOL & cheers
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Follow Up By: Sir Kev & Darkie - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 18:20

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 18:20
Barry,

in QUEENSLAND i only pay about the $95 mark for a bottle of gas

Go The MAROONS

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Reply By: Hairs & Fysh (NSW) - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:23

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:23
Your right the the installation is out of your pocket.
The rebate is only for the unit.
I've just purchased a 300 liter Solahart, $2400.00
I'm out of pocket $60.00 plus installation.
Haven't used it yet, still waiting for the plumber and Sparky.
With regards to the heat pump, I have heard, and only from a couple of people they can be a little noisy. These were installed on weather board houses, I would say they would be quieter with brick.

We are looking forward to cheaper power bills. This is for Two adults, Three kids under 11. The power useage may change when the two girls get older
Just my two Bobs worth.



AnswerID: 368262

Follow Up By: Member - Boo Boo (NSW) - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:32

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:32
Jon

Yeh, the installation of panels and piping could add up to a few bob.

Anyway, I'll keep investigating.

Regards BooBoo
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Follow Up By: Member - joc45 (WA) - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:35

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:35
Saw some heat pump versions installed on a brick wall at a caravan park recently. Couldn't believe the noise they were making! I've heard claims of them being cheaper to run than a solar, but the noise would have put me off immediately, regardless of cost.
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Follow Up By: Hairs & Fysh (NSW) - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:37

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:37
In the near future, we would like to invest in Solar panels for power as well, if the budget allows it.

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Follow Up By: Member - Vince B (NSW) - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:53

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:53
Hi Jon.
You have done well.
I will be out of pocket $900 when I finally receive the 2 govt. rebates.
Cheers.
Vince.
PS Will be down your way this weekend.
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Reply By: Crackles - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:37

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:37
Heat pump units are about as noisy as a small reverse cycle inverter air conditioner.
Apparently very popular in WA & are a common install over all other trypes.
Cheers Craig..........
AnswerID: 368265

Follow Up By: Member - joc45 (WA) - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 18:22

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 18:22
The ones I heard might have been a bum installation; they were noisier than an old wall rattler and could be heard from some distance away! It was the noise which made me investigate! These were the first I'd seen in WA, at Hyden caravan park. (perhaps the rest are so quiet, which is why I haven't noticed them)
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Reply By: Member - Ian W (NSW) - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:43

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:43
I have a Solarplus Heat Pump system. These were originally manufactured and sold by Siddons Solar Systems, I believe they are now owned by Quantum.

My system was installed in October 1986 and is still going strong. The F.I.L had the same system installed on a new home 21 years ago and again , no problems.

These particular systems have the evaporator plates mounted on the roof.

Noise. My unit is now a little noisy due to vibration as the rubber mounting grommets on which the sealed unit sit have got a bit sloppy. I will one day get up to Clarke Rubber for replacement rubber mounts which will cure the problem. The bit of noise/vibration is only noticed if I go outside and stand near the unit.

The F.I.L. had his tank/unit installed inside the house and all you hear is a faint hum no louder than the refrigerator. Basically these units are a refrigerator running the "other way round".

I believe the "noise" is noticed when comparing to a totally silent electric water heater.

Perhaps the "fan cooled" units may be noisy however having no experirence with them I can't comment.

Ian
AnswerID: 368267

Follow Up By: Member - Boo Boo (NSW) - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:50

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 17:50
Ian

I had installed about ten of the Edwards heat pumps at our Nursing Home in Scone in about 1988.

They worked really well and there was a big drop in our electricity bill.

I don't recall a noise issue, but it does seem to be an issue today.

Hence I thought I would get a few comments on the issue.

Regards BooBoo
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Follow Up By: Member - Ian W (NSW) - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 20:54

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 20:54
Hi Boo Boo,

Not familiar with "Edwards".

My system is whats known as a "split system".

Water tank topped by a seales unit just like in a refrigerator sits on the ground or if you prefer, inside the house. Refrigerant lines carry the gas to three aluminium evaporator plates ideally mounted to face north. These can be on the roof as mine and most are, or vertically on a wall.

The unit is connected to "off peak 2", that is, it can run any time other than between 5:00pm and 10:00pm. No need for booster elements etc:

The beauty of the "split system" is that it actually works more efficiently during rain due to better heat/energy transfer.

It may well be that the units incorporating a fan in leiu of the evaporator plates may be noisy compared to other systems however the noise if it is really noticable doed not appear to have affected sales.


Ian
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Reply By: jdwynn (Adelaide) - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 18:07

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 18:07
We had a close coupled solar hot water service with an instantaneous gas booster installed about 18 months ago now. Efficiency wise, if your roof will take something like half a tonne of weight, close coupled is the way to go - otherwise the tank has to go on the ground and water is circulated to the solar panels via small pump. The other thing we did was to opt for a stainless steel tank – IMO for longer life and a better warranty, that's the way to go – not cheap though.

In terms of emissions and usage costs, gas boosted close coupled solar systems are the most efficient - electric boosted solar, traditional gas storage unit, and heat pumps are similar (check out the Sustainable Energy Authority Victoria, NSW Sustainable Energy Development Authority websites). However which system is best may depend on your circumstance, state subsidy (Fed subsidy obviously same) e.g. whether or not you have gas available, what type of gas etc.

Since having on our system fitted our gas use has reduced by two thirds, and gas bills are down by about a third (not so impressive due to gas supply fee).
AnswerID: 368269

Reply By: Nutta - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 18:29

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 18:29
I've got two friends who are brothers, one is a plumber, he says heat pump, the other a gas fitter , u guessed it he says gas!
Personally i think the gas maybe better but im a roofer.
Wayne
AnswerID: 368272

Reply By: DIO - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 18:36

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 18:36
I am led to believe that in SA they can only install replacement h/w heaters that have a solar component (panel). There are govt. rebates. Can no longer have just a gas heater or electric mains or storage without a solar panel. Apparently it all came into law middle of last year.
AnswerID: 368276

Follow Up By: Sir Kev & Darkie - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 18:44

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 18:44
Dio,

HWS that are run via either bottled gas (instentaneous) or mains Natural gas are still able to be installed.

The Mains elec HWS (as we currently know it) are to be phased out and I think sales of this type is now banned. A heat pemp is now permitted and may be used in conjunction with a solar system.

Cheers Kev
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Reply By: Saharaman (aka Geepeem) - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 19:18

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 19:18
HI BooBoo,
We have a quantum heat pump. I researched it carefully 4 years ago when we built a new house and believed they were the best. They were one of the first to develop such systems. We use a lot of hot water (2 teenage daughters) and the cost is consistently between 23c and 27c per day (24 hrs). So about 1c per hour for as much hot water as you can use. Ours is on off peak tarriff.
Never found the noise a problem - its outsdie the brick house. Just put it in a corner where you don't go when socialising outdoors. You can also duct the exhaust (cold) air into the house in summer but need to divert it in winter. The exhaust air is always 10 degrees celcius colder than ambient temperature.
We have friends who had a bad experience with the solar panel type on the roof of their high set house. Tank needed to come down for repairs (outside of warranty) - had to hire a crane to lift it down and then up again after repairs. A very expensive experience. They also look ugly on your roof I reckon.
I would go for a Quantum heat pump - a very good quality product and they make hot water 24/7 as needed. Try having a hot shower with a solar panel type at night after rest of family has used up a lot of water. No more hot water until sunrise Or use the booster at high rates.
Cheers
GPM
AnswerID: 368289

Reply By: Member - DAZA (QLD) - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 21:28

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 21:28
Hi All

Being in the plumbing game, we have installed heaps of hotties over the years, my preference is gas, only if it's connected to a reticulated system, bottled gas is ok put dearer than town gas, and my other preference is using a recirculation pump, where the hot water is continuosly recirculated through the pipes, hot water comes out of the tap instantly, saving water and power, and also using a Tempering Valve so the hot water is allways 42 degrees celcius, in Showers and Baths and Hand Basins, while the Kitchen Sink and Laundry remain on 75 degrees
celcious, the Australian Standards require the above, to stop Children getting scalded.

Cheers
Daza
AnswerID: 368309

Follow Up By: rags - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 22:29

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 22:29
Daza
just to clarify above point [working as an inspector for a supply authority]
thermostatic mixing valves[tmv] are required in disable/heath care child care etc with delivered temp at 42.5deg, tempering valves at all other ablution points at max 50deg and other points above 50degs usually 60degs, but unless you install a commercial hws 75degs would be excessive.a circulating pump is ok but you need to factor the energy costs of running these.i agree with the costs are excessive on lpg.
ta
Russ
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Reply By: rags - Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 23:02

Wednesday, Jun 03, 2009 at 23:02
Hi
I ve recently been through a similar exercise as you and have come to the following conclusion.[I work in the plumbing industry]
I note that you are in NSW so you would be entilted to both state and fed rebates as well as the sale of the rec's points and these sites can help
http://www.solarsavers.com.au/
http://www.hotwaterrebate.com.au/
I am going to install a Rheem heat pump soon which my buy price is approx $300- $ 400 cheaper than the rebates offered. My reason for choosing a rheem over other heat pump units heaters and solar units are
[1]310ltr over 260 -270 ltrs from other suppliers,
[2] the rheem has an heating element mid way up the unit for additional heating in cold periods [our location is in the blue mts so cold temps are the norm]which not all makers have.
[3]Solar heaters need a nth facing elevation to work best which i can't achieve due to shading and to move to a due west roof is not effective and i would also need a frost protected model which are dearer
[4] Aheat pump is simpliar to install outside by simply removing my offpeak heater and installing new one.
[5] And the clincher comes$1000 to renew my current 20yr old heater and no rebate or $3000 to buy rheem heat pump and receive back approx $3450 back in rebates.no install costs allowed for as i'm installing.
Acouple of negatives that i forsee with the heat pumps are,any servicing may need to be done by appropriate people due to the compressor,gases etc,but the units are 2 parts ,heater and heat pump motor so can be seperated ,an offpeak heater only has 3 things to go wrong element, thermo, and leaking which most plumbers/electricians can do.And noise factor but they will be quiter than an reverse cycle aircond and they are outside and usually on the unused side of a house.I would not consider lpg instant heaters due to flow restrictions and gas consumptions
hope this helps
Russ
AnswerID: 368328

Follow Up By: Saharaman (aka Geepeem) - Thursday, Jun 04, 2009 at 06:34

Thursday, Jun 04, 2009 at 06:34
Rags,
Have you had a good look at Quantum?
They have 2 models - the one I have is 315litres (Model 340ACH).
I don't think the Blue Mts would be a problem as Quantum export theirs all over the world incl Canada.
It says on the specs sheet I got with mine they will work below zero temperatures.
You may want to place on northfacing wall in cold climates but we deliberately placed ours on a south facing wall to get max cold exhaust air in summer to direct into kitchen for free air conditioning.
It doesnt matter what the air temp is - Quantum just extract 10degrees of heat from whatever the air is to heat the water.
Have a closer look at Quantum - you may discover they are better.
In my view they are better than Rheem and have been around for a lot longer than Rheem making heat pump systems.
Cheers
GPM
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Follow Up By: rags - Thursday, Jun 04, 2009 at 19:01

Thursday, Jun 04, 2009 at 19:01
Hi GPM
I have looked at the Quantum range and yes they do work at below 0 deg,and in fact have installed many and did like the old model which included an absorption panel mounted on the roof.
As the outside temp drops hotwater consumption increases a fact i can atest to with a house full of girls.
An important factor for any HWS to consider is the rate of hotwater recovery,a quantum heater [315lt]at 10deg outside temp will recover at approx 20ltrs/hr,while a rheem [310lt]is approx 50lt/hr and up to 200lt/hr in warm climates, this achieve with the use of a back up element something that most solar heaters also have.The element reduces the claimable RECS points by 2 certicates = $50 EACH.Dux use an alternative method through the use of a trace heating wire which is another good idea.
The climate that the heater is installed has a big impact on the choice of heater,and if i was closer to Queensland then a Quantum would be a worhty choice but from experience not here in the mts [same with instant Rinnai etc].
I guess it is a bit like a Land Rover OR JEEP , they have been around a lot longer but then TOYOTA/NISSAN come along and do it better.
Cheers
Russ
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FollowupID: 635985

Reply By: MrBitchi (QLD) - Thursday, Jun 04, 2009 at 07:43

Thursday, Jun 04, 2009 at 07:43
I've got Solar and have had for about 20 yrs. Wouldn't have anything else. Only very occasionally needs a boost, and only for an hour or two before bed after a few days of overcast weather. It's surprising how little sun they need to heat water.

We are a family of three, one of those being a teenage girl.. You've never seen long showers till you have one of those ;-((

AnswerID: 368347

Reply By: brushmarx - Thursday, Jun 04, 2009 at 09:41

Thursday, Jun 04, 2009 at 09:41
Rheem recently changed thier design to take the heat punp from the top of the HWS to sit beside the unit.
This was done to reduce the noise of the unit operating although none of our clients complained about the noise.
We have been installing them now for a couple of years in new houses (roughly 130 units) and had only one need for repairs relating to the HWS itself, and Rheem attended to the callout within 24 hours.
No affiliation with Rheem except for purchasing thier products, but the heatpumps do seem to operate well and are cheaper to run than normal electric heaters. Also should be quite a bit cheaper to install labourwise as a replacement to electric heaters.
Whether they are cheaper than gas, or full on solar, I'll leave that to the experts.
Cheers
Ian
I'll get there someday, or die wanting to.

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AnswerID: 368362

Reply By: Member - Boo Boo (NSW) - Friday, Jun 05, 2009 at 09:57

Friday, Jun 05, 2009 at 09:57
Thanks for the input everyone your thoughts and comments are appreciated.

I am now thinking very hard about the heat pump and gas.

They appear to suit our situation.

Regards BooBoo
AnswerID: 368513

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