200 Series Turbo V8

Submitted: Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 13:13
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New vehicle has ticking noise like a loose tappet under light load disappears at idle or heavy load
Bridge Toyota Darwin looked at it and diagnosed it as number 1 injector replaced it made no difference at all
Dealers do not appear to have any idea on this one
Any one with a lead on this ?
Bob
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Reply By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 13:36

Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 13:36
Ring Toyota Australia and ask them what you should do... Tell them the dealers are not capable of servicing said vehicle.. Michael
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Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 17:49

Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 17:49
Better still send them a letter by "Registered Mail"
get it in writing in front of them and yes 'suggest' the Factory Trained Toyota Mechanics are incapable of fixing their problem with their vehicle, that you have purchased because you were advised by their advertising was a serious 4wd and was technically and mechanically advanced compared to their nearest rival

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Reply By: Wim - Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 13:38

Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 13:38
Bob Y

Could this be the new generation 1HXXXX tick.
I hope they have more success with this tick.

I, along with many other 1HXXXX owners have been driven crazy by the legendary ticking noise.

Regards and best of luck.
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Reply By: MAVERICK(WA) - Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 16:35

Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 16:35
for what it is worth - we have 2 x 200 TDV8 (leased - 1 x 12,000km and 1 x 18,000km now) and both have been in to the dealer for the now legendary oil and fuel consumption fixes. the 'ticking' noise was 'fixed' with new injectors - 8 on 1 and 4 on the other. ticking noise still there and will stay until the lease runs out (2yrs) as the 5 days off the road is just too much. 3 weeks ago we took delivery of another V8TD but this time the 76 - single turbo etc. for whatever reason no ticking noise - both 200 were evident from delivery. if the 76 is the same as other single turbo 76 we have it will not have any fuel or oil consumption problems. the issues with the twin turbo appear to be something toyota wishes/hopes will go away - sort of like nissan with the early 3.0l gu. having said that both the 200s get up and go and the 'noise' does not appear to have any effect on performance or fuel/oil usage. and the oil consumption has dropped as the kms increase but still nearly double the 76 consumption - maybe it is needed to keep the insides from exploding.
more completely useless info - so far both 200 are averaging 19.4L/100km and 18.8L/100km with the older 76 (21,000km) averaging 18.2L/100km. with the equipment fitted and weight carried and area they are used this is considered very acceptable. rgds
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Follow Up By: Member - JohnR (Vic) - Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 22:14

Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 22:14
I wonder about the oil useage issues. Diesels are best to have a really hard worked life early on, but how do you get to work such a powerful diesel hard just driving it around?

Our tractor engines need to be worked hard right from the start. No light loads like just towing a car body around as a 200 V8 is. Really hard throttle and loaded up engines to bed the rings in - or THEY USE OIL. That will wreck them. THEY NEED TO WORK.

To have oil consumption dropping as the kms build sounds like a bedding issue.

Maverick, I was towing a Karavan with friends with the same gear towed by a 200 and tank to tank we were getting better economy by about 8-9% in our 100 Series. I am not sure where that leaves Toyota claims, well I guess I do :-) I was running lower tyre pressures too on the Ood tracks and stones. I would have loved his torque up the Adelaide Hills
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Follow Up By: Members - Bow & Nan - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 08:48

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 08:48
John

The oil consumption problem is not caused by not bedding in the rings. Our 200 spent most of its early life towing a caravan and still used oil.

Towing a heavy caravan our 200 Series uses about 10% less fuel than the old troopy towing the same caravan. Without the caravan the 200 uses 20% less fuel than the troopy.

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Follow Up By: Member - JohnR (Vic) - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 09:25

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 09:25
Greg, I am interested in the reply, but the extent to which you can get a big torquey V8 diesel loaded up with an automatic transmission is in my mind limited unless you can get the converter manually locked up. It is designed to drop to a lower gear.

I have no doubt the 200 would do better than the Troopy. The Troopy would not have had electronic fuel metering I would guess. No computer, it was about throttle openings as an 80 Series would be too
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Reply By: Flywest - Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 17:07

Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 17:07
It may have something to do with either:-

The fact it is a V8

or

The electronically activated hydraulic injectors.

I say this coz my F 250 with the intercooled 7.3 V8 does just the same thing, and it shares those two design aspects with the new 200 series V8 twin turbos Cruisers.

It's had the rocker covers off a few times now and valve backlash adjusted etc etc, and it makes no difference - with no load the tick is there all the time and more pronounced when cold.

Its MY own opinion that the efect is in the V8 configuration... obviously the block being metal expands a fraction as it warms - in the case of a V8 it expands such that the V section causes a fractional distance atleration in the distance apart from each other of the two heads.

Where they run a centralised cam and pushrods - this affects the tappet adjustment...it's inherrant in the design (not so with ndividual overhead cams tho).

I could be wrong - but thats my pet theory for what its worth.

Pet theory number 2 is that if they are HEUI (Hydraulic Electric Unit Injectors) injectors - then you MAY have one thats noisy perhaps.

You could buy a new injector and place it into each cylinder in turn until the noisy one went away perhaps BUT these type of injectors arent CHEAP - like around $800 US each (over a grand Aussie) - so you can sdee why dealers don't just throw a few new injectors at the problem hoping it will go away.

Now.. how are the dealers diagnosing the engine in the first place?

Have they got the full computerised electronic diagnostic program and connector?

Or are they trying to do it by ear?

As best I know, your HEUI injectors work like this.

1st you have a normal oil pump in the engine just like everyone else and it makes maybe 100 psi oil pressure the usual displacement way that others do and oils the internals just as every other engine does.

2. This is where the new engines differ, they have a 2nd oil pump - called a HPOP (High Pressure Oil Pump) and it is much like a Jam Tin with maybe 8 metal hyperdermic syringes fixed inside of it. Its fed with eengine sump oil from the first oil pump. The end of the Jam tin HPOP has a jam tin lid welded onto it but at an oblique angle - not flat. The ends of the syringes are affixed to this "swashbuckle" plate that as it rotates - lifts the plungers up and down, as the oblique angle rotates, like a buckled wheel on a car!

3. This HPOP with it's individual syringes takes the used dirty sump oil, fed from the first normal oil pump at about 100 psi and tries to compress it, increasing the pressurre upwards of 2000 psi - to each individual injector!

4. The HEUI Injector has a further pressure increase of the oil by restricting its passage into a smaller gallery that takes the hydraulic pressure upwards of 20,000 psi!

5. The 20,000 PSI of haudralic pressure is then used to pressurise the diesel fuel - thus effectively atomising it. That 20,000 psi of pressure is released when the electronic signal reachess the injector from the controlling IDM (Injector Drive Module) computer.

6. The IDM computer tells the injector WHEN to fire, base on info the main computer gets from a magnetic camshaft position sensor fitted to the engine block.

The "ticking noise" can come from a HEUI injector where excess carbon (soot) deposits within the engine sump oil have accumulated/agglomerated & partially blocked the restrictor section in the injector where the oil pressures are increased from 2000 psi to in excess of 20,000 psi.

IF oil debris / soot or partial blockages, get into that section of the injector it is like the sound of a little man hammering away with a ball pein hammer - we are talking very high pressures here.

It IS one of the "possible downsides" of these new high tech engines - anyone whos worked with hydraulic machinery will tell you that keeping hydraulic fluids scrupulously clean, is paramount to long term performance and reliability of any hydraulic system. Any dirt or particles within a hydraulic system where high pressures are involved acts like a cutting paste and eats away metal at a great rate of knots.

This has to make one question, the "sense" in the very first place of using DIRTY black soot laden sump oil in a diesel engine as an hydraulic fluid to fire the injectors - no?

Especially when they are around a grand a piece and your engine uses 8 of them!

Now, when you think how important it is to keep the hydraulic oil clean of ANY particles that might cut away at the metals inside the injector when 20,000 psi pressures are involved, wouldnt you think the manufacturers wold go out of their way to filter that engine oil as finely as they could removing any soot particles down to below 1 micron with sub micron bypass filtration?

Its quite odd then that the new Toyotas (and My F 250) doesn't come standard with such sub microm filtration fittings - instead relying on the old standard oil filter that allows particles as large as 25 microns to keep circulating thru the engine, the oil pump the HPOP and the Injectors at pressures up to 20,000 psi?

I reckon its simply crazy myself, and what will happen to those who don't do supplementary filtration AND don't do regular frequent oil changes as well - those who let the oil get out to say 20,000 km's between changes because they have fully synthetic oil and the read somewhere that you can run extended oil changes out to 20,000 km's on this new miracle wonder oil?

How will their HEUI injectors hold up long term?... no problem just pop in 8 new ones ($8K thank you very much!).

I reckon as time progresses we will hear MUCH more about ticking noises from the cruisers (and the 7.3 liter F trucks) and start to hear screams of pain from those replacing injectors at early km's.

I could be wrong (I was once) ;o) - but Me? - I've fitted sub micron bypass oil filtering, just in case to try and minimise that annoying ticking noise from the HEUI Injectors!

The landcruiser folks will have to work this one out for themselves just as I did with the F truck engine - a little research will go a long way I reckon in that regard.

It's going to take a wee while until enough 200 series deisels are out there with enough KM's omn them and until enough technicians stat to pull them down etc before the real issue comes to light IMHO.

Meanwhile the ticking won't kill it, but it might well drive you nuts!

Welcome to the new technology diesels where they require good electrics to make them run - wait until your IDM gets wet in a water crossing and the whole "reliable / will run under water with a snorkel" engine quits at the first decent shower of rain, coz the electric signals shorted out, and couldn't tell the injectors when to fire - yep this new technology will be Soooo reliable!

But don't take my word for it - buy one and learn from experience!

Cheers
AnswerID: 371978

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 17:39

Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 17:39
The V8 turbo diesel Landcruisers have electronically controlled piezo injectors.

They don't use a hydraulic type injector.
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Follow Up By: Member - Ian H (NSW) - Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 17:45

Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 17:45
Great post Flywest, taught me a few things about new hi-tech diesels. The first being that I love my 1HZ non electronic donk that will run under water. I know one day I will have to move up but the 80 has only done 214000kms so I won't need to worry for a while.
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Follow Up By: Member - Timbo - Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 17:47

Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 17:47
Hi Flywest,

Your first theory sounds credible but if it was the case, you'd expect this 'ticking' would show up in lots of other V formation engines too

The second theory: I agree it would seem a bit reckless to be just using the sump oil for high pressure hydraulics but this isn't the first time we've seen it - the 3.0L TD Jackaroos used the sump oil to operate the injectors also. The most significant problems I've heard of from those engines was difficulty starting the engine on cold mornings (when the oil was too thick to go where it was needed to operate the injectors) or if the incorrect grade of oil was used (ie. again, not thin enough to operate the injectors).
As you rightly say, the ultimate proof will be in the long term with a few thousand of these things running around clocking up the km, but personally I think a manufacturer like Toyota would value it's reputation too highly to carelessly risk their reputation on a design flaw as obvious as you make it sound (but I could be proven to be terribly wrong on that)!
It would also seem a bit strange that others report the noise on delivery of the vehicle (ie. how much soot could have built up in that time?).
Finally, the evidence could weigh for or against your theory depending on whether the sub micron bypass oil filtering that you fitted made any differenceto the ticking noise from the HEUI Injectors?

BTW: diesel engines have been so electronically controlled for probably at least 10 years that I understand many of them would have trouble running under water.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 18:26

Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 18:26
The last series of Jackaroos used a high pressure system much like the Landcruiser, the fuel pressure was low pressure from the engine driven pump until it passed through the injector, oli was used to generate high pressure in the injector it's self.

This is why the grade and quality of oil was so critical in the Jackaroos.

The Toyota V8 D4D engines uses high pressure from the engine driven pump (around 20,000 to 25,000psi) to deliver fuel to the injector, the injector has no oil feed and does not increase the pressure.
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Follow Up By: Flywest - Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 18:45

Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 18:45


An example of what I mean about reliability of electronics in 4wd vehicles today.

I referred to this once in the past with reference to the F 250 electrical wiring, a wiring harness made in Brazil to Fords woefull specs.

How can one expect to undertake any kind of water crossing with exposed electrioniccs like this under an almost new vehicle?

The same engine computer that controls the electronic timing of the injectors, ALSO controls the auto transmission, via these exposed electrical connectors pins!

The Injector Drive Modules located up under the left fender just above axel height and it is about as well protected from moisture / water ingress as this conector on the side of the auto trans.

It doesnt matter WHERE the water gets into the control system - the facts are - once wet the whole vehicle becomes inoperable - it can't select gears and the engine wont run.

Oh yeah - you can't tow it in for repairs either - it requires a tilt tray truck (and at 4 tonnes a much bigger one than our average 5 tonner that the RAC send out!

Whats it gonna cost to sendsuch a truck out to theback of Burke to pickup your electronically controlled (insert brand of choice here) new miracle 4wd offroad vehicle?.

The whole idea of having mission critical MECHGANICAL components controlled by poorly designed electrical harnesses will se an awful lot of people towing heavy vans long distances from help - getting "stranded" a long way from home and help anda local dealer - at the first sign of a cloud in the sky!

Speaking from experience - i took our beast down the balla balla road from Whim creek about a week after a cyclone. The road was dry BUT there were puddles on the side of the road, red/brown muddy puddles at that!

Where these went out across the road in spots you HAD to drivbe thru them...which initially seemed fine, keep 2 wheels up on the dry and g as high as possible - let the left wheels run through the puddles - maybe 3 or 4 inches deep..at a reasonably slow pace - enough momentum to get you thru but not fast like a maniac.

Trouble is - this whole flats now being mined for magnetitie a heavy black samd like material used in stainless steel manufacture apparently, and that stuff is in the red clay mud of the puddles where being heavy like gold it settles out.

Anyway the mud gets up into connections like the one on the transmission AND the injector drive module computer up under the LH front mudgaurd, and the magentic properties make it attach itself and STAY there - forever more shorting out all those connections, rows of little sparks running up and down your connections confusing totally he computer that runs your engine and transmission..

All that from a shower of rain a week before, and a few puddles on the road!

The repair bills totalled more than $7K including the trucking and took more than 5 months to find and fix.

I have REAL concerns about reliabilty of these NEW 4 X 4's which cost near on the best part of $100K, that are all "electronically controlled" for the REAL offroad conditions we find in Oz.

They might be fine hauling your van up the bitumen (mine always was) but getting offroad into wet unsealed road conditions could become expensive disasters based on my real world experience so far!

A LOT of it will have to do with how well engineered the electrinic harnesees are and where these sentivie computers etc that control everything will be located.

I think Toyota maybe would take alot more effort and care with their electronics design than say the Ford I drive.

I guess the point is do we REALLY need to go away from the Mechanical reliability we had in say the 80 series diesel cruisers with all this newfangled electroonics in the latest 4wd's!

Diesel was always inherrantly reliable in water crossings etc BECAUSE there were no electrics to short out and shut down the engine & drivetrain, so WHY are we now cmbining electrics with the r3eliability of diesel engines to now make them totally unreliable?

It seems kinda silly to me, maybe NOT so for the town commuter car but definitely so for the workhorse of the outback.

Maybe I'm alone in my belief - but then again maybe I'm just one of the first to be discovering such shortcommings in what these days are now such high technology vehicles.

I reckon time may prove me right - or not!

Theres no quick way to know the outcome of this new technology.

What we did know is that the old mechanical diesel etechnology worked and was incredibly reliable..

Will we be saying that about the new 200 series cruisers in say 10 years time?

Only the new vehicle owners who have them now, will be able to make that call.

How many of those new 200 series diesels do I see with soccer moms driving them to the supermarket & taking the kids to soccer - are we likely to get such real offraod experiences related from typical owners of 200 series that will likely never see the gravel, let alone a puddle or water crossing?

It will be the outback tour ops & mining co guys etc etc who will be the first to be able to tell or not whether this new technology adds up.

The jurys still out at this point in time - and everyone should place their bets while we wait to see.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Timbo - Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 19:39

Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 19:39
Flywest, the exposed electrics on the Ford's do seem to be a problem. Was heading up to Mitchell Plateau in late May 2007 and there was this burnt Ford there just before the King Edward River crossing.

Image Could Not Be Found
Apparently they'd driven into the river (intending to cross) and the vehicle had stalled in the river (suspected because of electrical fault). It was towed out onto dry ground where it was said an electrical fault caused the vehicle to catch fire... It seems likely - I don't know what else would cause a vehicle to stall in water and then catch fire, but I'd have thought you should blow a fuse rather than the car catching fire.

Anyway, this is not answering the problem about ticking noises ticking off Landcruiser owners...
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Follow Up By: Boobook2 - Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 20:27

Friday, Jun 26, 2009 at 20:27
Wow something has got up flywests skirt. Pity it has nothing to do with the question other than extrapolation of conspiricy theories on another vehicle that has obviously been a bad experience.

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Reply By: Member - Bob V (QLD) - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 15:38

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 15:38
Many thanks to all the comments from members re the 200 series ticking noise. How interesting that members are aware there is a problem but not Toyota, sounds like the response from nissan re their 3 litre engine.
Regards Bob
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