GPS at Woomera

Submitted: Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 09:35
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Travelled through Woomera last week on way back from Lake Eyre, and one of the mates found that his GPS placed us about 50 k's from where we knew we were (in Woomera). At Port Augusta the same GPS was dead accurate. Strange!! There is still defence etc research (scramjet) being conducted at Woomera which I understand is being operated by British Aerospace. Is this a conspiracy?
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Reply By: Member - TonBon (NSW) - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 09:36

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 09:36
Ooooo, this sounds interesting, love a good conspiracy.
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Reply By: olcoolone - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 09:41

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 09:41
I think you read to many Sci-Fi books.

Our GPS all ways read right when going through Woomera.

There is very little activity happening.

The scramjet testing is being developed by a non defence organisation and a Uni.
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Follow Up By: tazbaz - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 09:45

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 09:45
I hate Sci Fi books. Also when we had a Sunday evening meal in what was the "Eldo Mess" - now the Eldo Hotel and the only place to eat in Woomera - there were also about ten Asian scientists there also, implying that things are happening there. Also I generally despise conspiracy theories!
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Reply By: Jedo_03 - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 09:41

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 09:41
Now you've let the cat out the bag..
Now EVERYONE, including the Taliban, knows to adjust the GPS coordinates by 50kms...
LOL
Jedo
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Reply By: Member - Doug T (NT) - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 09:46

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 09:46
tazbaz
What make of GPS is important for my interests.

Let me have a guess..1 Navman / 2 Asus / 3 Mio / 4 Tom Tom

Don't say Garmin because I know better,
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Follow Up By: tazbaz - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 09:49

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 09:49
Doug T
An I Phone GPS
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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T (NT) - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 10:07

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 10:07
No further comment required...

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Follow Up By: KennyBWilson - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 10:37

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 10:37
All those receivers can do something that a Garmin can't do either, every GPSr has some good points and some bad.
Think outside the square
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 11:12

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 11:12
I had my GARMIN etrex go wonkey like that a few years back but it was at Mt Ragged south of balladonia. Returnedto normal soon enough. I wondered about echos of signals off the hill or something
- I just put it down to oneof those things

My GARMIN nuvi crapped out an dropped its maps POI and anything id saved on it after id owned it for a couple of weeks

- so stuff dos happen
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Thoughtfully- Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 11:56

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 11:56
Geez Doug, NOT enough said.... Every GPS has its role, and theres other non-"it should be a Garmin" reasons for a GPS to malfunction.

I KNOW you know some of these reasons, you've forgot more about GPS than I know, and I know a lot. So please free up some of that info and regale us with your theories on why it would show such an error.

I know you can
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Follow Up By: The Explorer - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 15:30

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 15:30
Friday Funny on Saturday!

Cheers Greg
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Follow Up By: Blaze (Berri) - Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 02:52

Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 02:52
Bonz I find Doug's comments very interesting especially after I ran 18,000 k's across and around Australia, running a mates Garmin GPSMAP296 Aviation GPS, I also had my own trusty Ipaq running Tom-tom and Oziexplorer, also my Toshiba Laptop with a Hi-408BT Bluetooth GPS 32Ch (Haicom receiver). One mate had a pretty basic Garmin Quest 2 and a Magellan Triton 500, also a Asus running Trackranger and the other vehicle had Garmin GPS 111 running to a Compaq Laptop. Some of these where borrowed units just to do the comparison.

The Garmin 296 had the quickest refresh rate, whilst the Haicom Bluetooth unit was the quickest to lock onto sats.

But the point I wanted to make is they all read identical with positioning and if they don't, most of the tracks and waypoints on this site are useless by Dougs comments, because quite a large proportion of them are sent to David from members using units other than Garmin.

I have checked and double checked cords off this site with Google Earth and with Ozixplorer and with AIRNAV VFR flight planning software and guess what, they all seem to place the points in the same spot.

Doug if any of the way/points or tracks on this site are yours may I suggest you redo them with Oziexplorer on a laptop as that is becoming the most widely used mapping system and it would be bad situation if someone using one of these system's tried to find a point that wasn't where it should be due to their system reading different to your unit !


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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T (NT) - Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 07:56

Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 07:56
Blaze
The simple matter of fact is with a Garmin is if you program it to guide you to Woomera then that's exactly what it will do , directly to the spot marked by the red arrow , quite honestly I'm not interested in some of the other products you mentioned , I don't need to run around around Australia with half a dozen units to do a test, I know which is the best, never had a problem with it either, and I'll say it again OziExplorer in my opinion is crap , that's my opinion and I'm staying with it,

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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T (NT) - Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 08:39

Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 08:39
How dare people question the accruacy of my tracks recorded with my Garmins , I have some demo tracks from a Garmin Quest while mounted in a Tractor and the Nuvi 760 track record on Fenton Taxiways as shown on Google Earth , how more accurate do you want, the screen shots are to large to show here, so I have added them to my webpage ,

SEE HERE

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Follow Up By: Blaze (Berri) - Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 09:36

Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 09:36
Well if that isnt the typical head in the sand syndrome, Ozi is Crap Garmin is the best, firstly how often have you used Ozi and was it on a PDA or a Laptop, secondly was it running Hema or Topo Maps you created.

Also with those sorts of thoughts is the vehicle you own now the best manufacturer, or the previous one or the first one you owned. Seems to me IMHO that whatever you own and are using at any time Doug is the best and there is nothing else.



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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T (NT) - Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:12

Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:12
Blaze
No further comments needed, your acting like the typical defeated animal trapped in a corner, I can see where your heading and it won't work,

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Follow Up By: The Explorer - Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:16

Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:16
Blaze - a search of the forum will reveal this is just one of the many times DT has responded to any mention of the word OziExplorer (OE) in this fashion. Rightly or wrongly, its his way of expressing his opinion. I think what DT is trying to say is that he used OE once and didnt like it/had no use for it many functions - thats the extent of it. Nothing wrong with that - his choice of a Garmin Nuvi/Mapsource/Garmin format maps is obviously a good one for his intended purpose. As we know OziExplorer is also a very good choice for certain applications and is used by 100s of thousands worldwide.

I suppose if we were for some reason limited to using one program (and chose OE) and then had to adopt DTs method of conveying an opinion on other similar programs we could call Mapsource "crap" though that would be a bit basic and also (generally speaking) untrue.

Cheers
Greg

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Follow Up By: Blaze (Berri) - Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 17:43

Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 17:43
Well Doug,

After your comment "your acting like the typical defeated animal trapped in a corner, I can see where your heading and it won't work,"

All I can say is you would need to be using Oziexplorer to see where I'm heading you're Very good and capable Garmin wouldn't find me LOLOLOLOLOLOL.
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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T (NT) - Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 19:11

Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 19:11
Blaze
Try me.... give me a Lat/Long and I'll find you , give me a track your going on and I'll see if it's shown, and yes I have used Ozi on a Laptop, max zoom is 100 anymore and it begins to go blocky, one might as well use a paper map , anyhow old riverlander in 5RM country enjoy your trip,

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Follow Up By: The Explorer - Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 19:53

Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 19:53
"max zoom is 100 anymore and it begins to go blocky, one might as well use a paper map"

Zooming in past 100% on a digital raster map is the same as holding a paper map closer and close to your face - in both cases you will reach a point where it is unreadable/pixelated. As with paper maps if you need more detail, get hold of a larger scale map. Vector data doesn’t have this issue but you must keep in mind the resolution of the data used. While you will not get pixilation this doesn’t necessarily mean the image you are seeing is accurately depicting the position of the features present. Example is the Shonky and T4A maps used with Garmins. It is the same data set used to create the 250K Natmap raster series. The vector format of the data allows you to zoom in and not get pixilation but, for example, linear features (e.g. rivers and roads) become jagged and offset from their true position except for wide spaced points past a certain zoom. As with Raster maps they are best viewed at the scale they were designed for.

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Greg
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Follow Up By: Blaze (Berri) - Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 at 10:05

Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 at 10:05
Totally agree Explorer, very few people use the standard maps, and I also see their is no point going on with this with Doug as the old saying goes you can lead a donkey to water but you cant make them drink, but I have to ask Doug a little question.

I will give you a little test Doug if you really want one? Give me the cords 30klm's Nth West along Lindsay Creek from the only track it crosses near the Old Ghan Railway Line in S.A. North. No good giving you a road as we have 4 wheel drives and go off road.




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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T (NT) - Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 at 11:10

Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 at 11:10
S26 17 15.3 E134 43 53.7 Oodnadatta/Finke track as shown on C/N 2009 ,
and your smart A remark about having a 4x4 to go off road wasn't called for, I was roaming that country either when you was in Nappies or before you was even thought of, Sid Kidmans old house is near there too , do you want a photo, Lindsay Creek also crosses tracks at S26 08 28.0 E134 26 06.9 as shown on my Nuvi, actually 2 channels , that Co/Ord is for the NE side,
and again closer to the Oodnadatta/Finke track S26 09 16.5 E134 30 46.6 and again at S26 13 29.7 E134 35 34.4,

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Follow Up By: Blaze (Berri) - Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 at 15:40

Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 at 15:40
You are spot on about the S26 17 15.3 E134 43 53.7 Oodnadatta/Finke track, which even a toy GPS could have given you, but I believe I asked for the cords 30klm's Nth West along Lindsay Creek.
I know I know, I shouldn't bother getting into a slinging match with you, but by saying I was in nappies when you were driving this country, which would be around the time Tom Kruse was, just means your very very OLD as anyone who knows me will attest to, I'm lets say past 50 LOL.
By the way what vehicle were you driving up that way in the early 50's anyway, I'm sure we would all like to know.


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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T (NT) - Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 at 16:14

Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 at 16:14
Blaze
Your question was as copied

"Give me the cords 30klm's Nth West along Lindsay Creek from the only track it crosses near the Old Ghan Railway Line in S.A. North"

OK so I think you want the track 30 Klms from the Oodna'/Finke track where the creek crosses,

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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T (NT) - Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 at 16:25

Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 at 16:25
Oh and I forgot ... the years were the 60s and based in Waikerie, I used to listen to 5RM and Rocky Page, the cars were as below.
The EK was traded in Berri for the Landrover in 1968.

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Follow Up By: Blaze (Berri) - Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 at 16:33

Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 at 16:33
Well as you have probably guessed by now Doug, NO I wasnt in nappies in the 60's, as for the track you say I asked for I didn't ask for a track, I asked for a position 30klm's Nth West along Lindsay Creek, but your right, as always and I surrender.
I am taking a Valium and going and hiding in the corner "like the typical defeated animal trapped in a corner" as you put it. You win, GARMINS are the best, must be, you wouldn't have found radium hill back in the 60's without one.

Have a good day I have work to do.




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Reply By: Member - Fred G NSW - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 10:30

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 10:30
tazbaz...don't feel bad...I had a similar experience when I was there 3 weeks ago.

I only have a cheap Navman, but I don't use it for navigation, except in the big smoke, but mainly for distance calculations for proposed destinations each day and distance to go, eta's etc, and the clock is always in the right time zone, unlike my telstra mobile phone service.

Fred.
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Follow Up By: tazbaz - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 10:39

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 10:39
Thanks Fred, interesting that you had a similar experience. It seems that an IPhone GPS has little cred - don't know why though. It seems to work the same and as well as the GPS in a mates new 5 series BMW and another's Lexus.
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Reply By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 10:45

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 10:45
Hi Tazbaz
You are not the first person to have problems in that area. We had similar problems out on Lake Torrens a few years back while recording a Degree Confluence. After posting my report, I was then contacted by a surveyor from in that area and was advised by the Department of Defence not to use ant GPS units, the week that we were there. What I reported was the testing of a GPS jamming device being tested at Woomera. Mind you we did not have that degree of inaccuracy. Woomera is still a secretive place with many testing by government bodies.

They will all say that such things are not happening, but like you, have had similar problems.

Cheers

Stephen
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Follow Up By: Rossc0 - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 13:40

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 13:40
Would concur with this.

In 2000 we were traveling by light aircraft between Ceduna and Roxby Downs and it was NOTAMed that there would be interference to GPS signals arround Woomera due to testing of GPS jamming devices.

Cheers
Ross
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Reply By: get outmore - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 11:19

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 11:19
something to keep in mind. The street navs have intuitive programming to make them appear more accurate than they are. A couple of examples

when you drive through a tunnel they keep you heading along the road for a good while before they have to admit they have lost signal.

they "snap to road" meaning although they dont have your position dead on the road they will put your position on the nearest road. i found this out when i took a y junction with 2 roads going close to one another. it had me continuing along the same road for a bit as these 2 roads split. it then suddenly snapped me over to the correct road.

if you had done something that confused this componant of your strret navs software it could place you where you arnt
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Thoughtfully- Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 12:01

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 12:01
my GPS allows me to turn that snap on and off, its quite useful.

All GPS's (to my knowledge) use a "dead-reckoning" approach if they lose signal, that is they continue in the same heading and speed until they time out and tell you theyve lost signal.
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Reply By: Member - Allan B (QLD) - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 13:33

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 13:33
I used to work at Woomera and I know why your GPS reading is shifted.

But if I told you the reason, then they would have to kill me !!!!

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Bushtrek - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 14:39

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 14:39
It's no secret.
GPS Jamming tests are regularly carried out at WTR.
CASA, DSTO, RAAF, US Air Force Operational and Test Evaluation Center (re) as well as UK MOD all have access.
There are jammers located at the airfield, out at Redlake, and there is also airborne activity carried out.
Has been for nearly a decade and the Department of Defence publishes a Newsletter advertising the activities.



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Follow Up By: Bushtrek - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 14:46

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 14:46
Try photo attachement again.

http://s293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/bushtrek/?action=view¤t=RedlakeGPSJammerWomeraSA.jpg[/img]
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Follow Up By: Member - Allan B (QLD) - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 15:42

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 15:42
Oh, alright, my cover is blown, look here url=http://www.dsto.defence.gov.au/news/3290/

But don't tell them I told you!
Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Blaze (Berri) - Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 02:59

Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 02:59
Bet they havent blocked out a Garmin yet, just ask Goug...



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Reply By: KennyBWilson - Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 21:12

Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 at 21:12
Going back about a month ago I get a call from a Geocacher looking for a lunch box near Bute in South Australia, anyway she said she had no satellites showing on all 4 Garmin GPSr's now please explain that Dougy.

Also about 2 weeks ago another friend in Adelaide had his 7" GPSr stop receiving satellite's in Apsly in Victoria and in the same week i get an email telling me his GPSr could recive satellite's either.

Enter the Twight Zone
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Follow Up By: V8 Troopie - Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 at 01:27

Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 at 01:27
That happened on my boat, turned ou to be a faulty external GPS antenna connection...
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Reply By: psproule - Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 at 06:13

Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 at 06:13
The Womera GPS jamming test were back in 2000. Interesting that they are still running them when the press release seems to suggest that it was finished.
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Reply By: Member - Howard (ACT) - Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 at 18:39

Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 at 18:39
I travel regularly up the Newell . dont know why but and nearly always lose gps signal around Peak Hill to Parkes
I have assumed its something to do with interference from/to tracking station at Parkes
this has occurred with 3 different brands of GPS over last 3 years and as recently as 10 days ago.

cheers
Howard
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Reply By: Member - Brad S (SA) - Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 at 19:46

Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 at 19:46
Hi tazbaz

Were you returning by way of the Borefield Track? (Oodnadatta Trk...Roxby Downs...Woomera)
If so, what was the conidition of the track?

Cheers
Brad
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Follow Up By: tazbaz - Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 at 23:19

Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 at 23:19
Brad
Yes returned by Borefield track in a Kia Sorento 4wd - good condition but very desolate until about 15k's before olympic dam / roxby junction, - if you broke down then start rationing the water immediately because minimal traffic - we saw no one else. You would not use this road either if its been raining seriously. Otherwise a 2wd would do.
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Follow Up By: Member - Brad S (SA) - Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 00:57

Monday, Jun 29, 2009 at 00:57
Aaah...That Tazbaz!
From the other forum.
I'm sure the Sorento did it with aplomb!
Even if it was lonely among the Toyos and Nissans and with only five studs per wheel too…I read your other thread.

I'll be driving a Terracan along with Numb Thumbs.
I was considering the Borefield Track as a shorter option back to Adelaide after crossing the Simpson east – west. NT and my missus are keen to see Lake Eyre by chopper from William Creek.

Cheers

Brad
(aka Assegai)
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Reply By: Richard W (NSW) - Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 at 22:20

Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 at 22:20
Did a trip through Woomera last October.
GPS was tracking fine.



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