Inverters - Pure sine wave vs Modified sine wave

Hi Folks. Is someone able to explain if it's better to spend the extra dollars on pure sine wave...and why please. I generally just need one for charging laptop etc. Any recommendations on what and where to buy appreciated. Cheers Waz.
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Reply By: Richard Kovac - Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 01:04

Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 01:04
Warren

Can't help on the Pure sine wave vs Modified sine wave, except that everyone will tell you, you need pure, I had a Modified sine wave 150 w for years ran my old NEC laptop and the the Acer no problems, the female 3 pin socket broke and I could not replace it.
Brought a new one 3 times the price for a Pure sine wave 150 w, and it still only runs the computer.


from the 12 Volt Shop


If I did it again I would get one of these from Jaycar


beer can Inverter $59.00

If in the future you need more upgrade then.

Cheers

Richard
AnswerID: 391697

Reply By: Snowy 3.0iTD - Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 08:23

Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 08:23
It depends on what you are planning on running off of it. Pure sine wave is better, while modified sine wave will slightly reduce the life of the electrical device you are running off it. If you are only running very basic and cheap electrical devices such as kettles, toasters, cheap devices, save your money and buy a standard inverter. If you were to be running expensive devices such as fridges TV's etc, then spending a bit extra on the pure sine wave inverter is reccommended.

Fortunately most electronic devices including your laptop run on DC power and have buillt-in inverters and transformers, so in this case it will make no difference to it whether it is a square wave (standard inverter), or pure sine wave, basically save your money. You will actually be converting your car battery power DC, to AC via the inverter and then the laptop charger will convert it back to DC.

Snowy
Engineer.
AnswerID: 391715

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 08:28

Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 08:28
"this case it will make no difference to it whether it is a square wave (standard inverter), or pure sine wave, "

The fast risetime of a squarewave means that the current peaks to recharge the capacitor will be much higher than from a sinewave. This higher current surge can lead to earlier failure of the diode or capcitors.
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Follow Up By: Snowy 3.0iTD - Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 09:44

Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 09:44
Mike

As current is a function of power dvided by voltage, with a square wave you will have a faster rise of the voltage (certainly not as smooth as a sine wave) but wouldn't that mean that the current peaks for a square wave would be the same if not less than for a sine wave?


Snowy
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Follow Up By: leachy_9 - Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 10:00

Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 10:00
Snowy,
the electrical relationhips you mention are for resistive circuits. When capcitors and inductors are used in time varying circuits (AC) things are little more complicated.
The current through a capacitor is given by: I = C. dv/dt . That is the current that the capacitor will experience is proportional to the rate of change of the voltage appleid to the capacitor. Since a modifiied sine wave (square wave) has a much greater rate of change than the true sine wave the current seen by the capacitor will be greater.

Leachy.

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Follow Up By: Snowy 3.0iTD - Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 10:09

Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 10:09
Cool, a glorified grease monkey (my brothers term for a mech eng. lol) stands corrected on electrickery, thanks.

Snowy
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Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 08:23

Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 08:23
A Sinewave Inverter is always better because their output is much closer to what comes from a powerpoint - all appliances are designed to work off sinewave 240 volts.

Will your appliance work well off your Modified Squarewave Inverter - that's too hard to answer - how is your appliance designed ??? - how bad is the output form your Modified Squarewave Inverter ???

Modified SQUAREwave Inverter - if you look at the output form these non-Sinewave Inverters, it's obvious they are much closer to a squarewave than a Sinewave. Calling them Modified Sinewave is one of the great marketing lies we're subjected to.
AnswerID: 391716

Reply By: Maîneÿ . . .- Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 09:01

Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 09:01
Waz,

Your asking a very technical question, that has a definitive answer.

Have you asked the manufacturer/supplier of your laptop if it will be covered by their warranty on anything other than Pure sinewave inverter ?
(assuming it's still under warranty - because your next computer will be)

I use Pure sinewave because of the various disadvantages of anything less than what my computer and other appliances were specifically designed for.

There's plenty of 'information' available, however I don't believe I've read any technical information, anywhere, confirming Square wave is equivalent to Pure sinewave - it's this difference that is important, spend some extra $$ and buy the best technology available.

Maîneÿ . . .
AnswerID: 391721

Reply By: dbish - Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 09:03

Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 09:03
Hi Waz, If you only want it to run a computer why not use this from Jaycar Electronics MP3472 $74.95 Its a computer power supply runs of12V Dc has swichable output voltage & several plugs to suit computers max output 6Amps. Thats what I use to run my computer in van, much more efficient & draws less curent than using a 240V inverter.
AnswerID: 391722

Reply By: stevesub - Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:04

Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:04
The theory is that pure sine waves are best - however over probably the last 10 years now, I have been using el'cheapo modified sine wave inverters for laptops, small TV's, charging batteries for cameras, shavers, radios, mobiles, etc plus running flouro lights - all with no problem.

Stevesub
AnswerID: 391734

Reply By: PhilZD30Patrol - Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 16:32

Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 16:32
Hi

I am an old retired electrician and have run my laptops battery chargers off a 300 watt modified sine wave inverter without any problems for a few years now.

I cannot see that laptops with batteries can be a problem using a modified sine wave when the battery is charged off the 240v AC battery charger supplied with the laptop.

If you are worried, an alternate solution is to purchase a cigarette lighter type power supply for your brand of laptop. When plugged into the car cigarette lighter, the 12v DC is transformed to the DC voltage required for your particular laptop. This is probably the cheapest and best option.

Be aware of any el cheapo option as the car battery voltage can vary from 11 v to 14 v DC. The device needs to be able to regulate the output voltage.

Dick Smith, Jaycar or Computer retailers should sell them.

Whatever solution you come up with, be aware that the car cigarette lighter outlet maximum current rating may be close to what the laptop draws and it may get very hot.

Cheers
Phil

AnswerID: 391777

Reply By: gelatr- Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 23:22

Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 at 23:22
Hi, I had the same dilemma before my last trip. I decided to purchase an el-cheapo off ebay just to see how it would go. It was a Projecta 300w modified sine wave invertor and only cost about $80.00 from some guy in Adelaide. It ran my laptop with no problems, a 240volt fluoro light and charged my camera battery. The research I did generalised that if the electrical item had an external transformer (like a laptop) then it would be okay with a modified sine wave invertor. I tried my makita battery charger for my torch and heard a clicking noise (rattle) so didn't risk it, even though it appeared to be still working. Given all I really wanted to run was my laptop, charge my camera and run a 240 volt light I was more than happy with the performance of the modified sine wave invertor.

Cheers,

Geoff
AnswerID: 391837

Reply By: Member - Warren R-Silver Sands - Friday, Nov 20, 2009 at 00:57

Friday, Nov 20, 2009 at 00:57
Cheers everyone for your input. I guess it sort of confirmed what I was thinking. I probably shouldn't be a tight arse and get the pure jobby. It's nearly Xmas anyway. cya
AnswerID: 391843

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Friday, Nov 20, 2009 at 01:46

Friday, Nov 20, 2009 at 01:46
Warren, the most efficient Inverters are rated as "x" % efficient
get the highest efficiency rating you can find (afford)
(under 80% is useless - 90% "plus" is efficient)

Hint:
Get inverter rated for the load required to be powered
Get the inverter matched as close as possible to the load
Eg: don't get a 600 Watt inverter to run a 200 Watt load

Maîneÿ . . .
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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Friday, Nov 20, 2009 at 07:49

Friday, Nov 20, 2009 at 07:49
Hi Mainey,

"Eg: don't get a 600 Watt inverter to run a 200 Watt load"

Could you tell me why you recommend this please ?

Thanks, KK
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Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Friday, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:02

Friday, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:02
KK,
Stated simplistically, Inverters themselves consume your 12v battery power when running.

Yes, it's only a small amount of 12v power in a small capacity Inverter, but in a much larger capacity Inverter it's a much larger amount of your 12v battery capacity, to do exactly same amount of work, with the same device connected.

With a quality 300 watt inverter running a 300 Watt load, there is nil *avoidable* 12v battery power 'waste' - the inverter 12v loss's are still there and they can't be avoided.
However, with the exact same 300 watt load running from a 1,OOO watt Inverter there is huge waste (by comparison) of your 12v battery power used just to run the 1,OOO watt Inverter itself.

When a 300 watt inverter is running, "?" of your 12v battery power is used as Inverter self consumption, whether it's running only a small light - or the same light, and a tv and a computer and a fridge also (assuming all devices ~300 watts total)

Liken it to using an economical 4 cylinder car to go shopping, verses a V12 ***** to do the exact same quick shopping trip.
You will still bring home the same loaf of bread in each vehicle, one vehicle will cost a few cents to run to the shops and the other would cost more than the bread, if you get my point :-))
(if 'someone' wants to get all pedantic and use actual % and Voltage numbers then nominate the Inverter also, because all Inverters are not created equal, some are more efficient than others)

That's the reason I use a 4 plug power-board wired direct to my inverter to run/charge up to 4 devices simultaneously from my 300 watt psw inverter, it consumes less of my 12v power that way than when running/charging the same 4 devices individually.
Image Could Not Be FoundMaîneÿ . . .
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Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Friday, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:59

Friday, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:59
Here's another explanation that gives the same outcome as Maineys car analogy.

People quote Inverter efficiencies like 90%, but these only apply when the Inverter is running at full load. At light loads the Inverter can be much less efficent.

Say a 600 watt Inverter needs 60 watts just to run itself. So if you're getting 60 watts out of the Inverter, it's running at 50% efficiency (60/60+60).

If a similar 200 watw Inverter used 20 watts to run itself, the when powering a 60 watt load, it's running 75% efficient. (60/60+20).
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Follow Up By: Mogul - Friday, Nov 20, 2009 at 13:18

Friday, Nov 20, 2009 at 13:18
But the V12 will be a lot more exciting.....
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