How Deep dare I cycle the Deep Cycle battery?
Submitted: Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 12:26
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waeco shopper
I just bought a new waeco cf50 and 105ah deep cycle Hella battery. The pair are connected with no other components/circuitry except a fuse (not integrated with car).
Since the waeco has low med high settings with cutout at 10.1, 11.4 or 11.8 I'm astounded when I just asked the battery supplier whats the minimum I can discharge the battery to, he advised 12.2 which HD said equal 50%.
I thought was the point of a D C was that it was happy being very run down. He said I could discharge lower than 12.2 but don't do it often as it will ruin the battery.
I'm using this setup as temporary solution until I can sort a vsr or other. Currently just going to use 30amp mains charger when power avail.
Incidentally in the past 26 hrs the battery has dropped from 12.39 to 12.14 maintaining fridge at 2 degrees.
What can I discharge the battery to? I've heard many people discharge their batteries to less than 12.2
any suggestions or explanation would be greatly appreciated
thanks
Reply By: Glenndini - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 16:00
Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 16:00
The 12.2V most give as an indication of state of charge of a battery at 50% is an open terminal voltage. Any load on the battery will lower this reading.
Try measuring the open terminal voltage, it will be higher.
I just read across my battery running a Waeco 110 litre and it shows 11.96volts.
If I disconnect everything using this battery the open terminal voltage is still 12.41V.
I think the 11.8V cut-off on the Waeco is fine for about a half discharged battery.
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Follow Up By: Glenndini - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 17:24
Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 17:24
Actually, having said that, it does make me wonder at what voltage the Waeco system cuts off. Does it cut-off if voltage drops to 11.8V while the compressor is running (as I am assuming). If so, then the open circuit voltage should still be 12.2V or there abouts which is OK by me and my battery.
If it waits until the open circuit voltage (ie:compressor not running) drops to 11.8V then that would be a problem. I cannot imagine it works this way though.
As noted above if I measure the open cct. voltage it shows 12.4V. I also measured the specific gravity and it shows 1.225. Both these figures agree that the battery is at 75% charge.
With the compressor running the voltage is showing 11.96V. Hopefully this is the voltage the Waeco is watching to cut off at 11.8V (on the high setting).
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Follow Up By: Member - Allan B (QLD) - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 18:14
Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 18:14
Glenndini,
The battery voltage must be at or above the upper (Cut-in) figure for the fridge to start. It will then run until the voltage falls to the lower (Cut-out) figure.
The actual voltages vary by manufacturer and model.
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665882
Follow Up By: Glenndini - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 19:06
Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 19:06
This is not exactly true. It depends on what you mean by start. The open cct voltage is currently at 12.35V. This is
well below the high restart voltage of 12.6V on the Waeco and yet the compressor happily "starts" when the thermostat kicks in.
The cut out voltage is obviously reached first when the compressor is running as it is lower than the open cct voltage. This will cause the fridge to cut out.
For the fridge to restart, after this cut out has been activated, the open cct voltage must reach 21.6V (high waeco setting).
Therefore I believe the cut out voltage will be reached during compressor operation but the restart voltage will when the compressor is not operating and the open cct voltage reaches a charged state (12.6V).
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Follow Up By: Member - Allan B (QLD) - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 19:47
Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 19:47
Yep, let me try restating that............
When first connecting, or upon thermostat closing, the fridge will start and run if the battery voltage is above the "cut-out" setting.
It will continue to run until the voltage falls below the "cut-out" setting.
After "Low-voltage cutout" the fridge will remain off until the battery voltage rises above the "Cut-in" setting whereupon the fridge will start if the thermostat is closed.
If, after operation of the "Cut-out" function, the fridge is disconnected from the battery then reconnected it will restart if the battery voltage is above the "Cut-out" setting.
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Follow Up By: Glenndini - Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 21:32
Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 at 21:32
Allan,
I'm sure we all agree that's what the battery monitor is for, that's the whole idea. My thoughts were more about the original question. Why, when it is advised that batteries should not be discharged beyond 50% (12.2V) does the waeco cut off activate at 11.8V?
As I have said, I believe it is because there is a difference between the loaded and unloaded voltages of a battery. A loaded voltage of 11.8V (compressor running) would indeed be close to an UNLOADED (open circuit) voltage of 12.2V and also close to 50% discharge according to most sources on SoC of batteries.
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Follow Up By: Member - Allan B (QLD) - Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 00:20
Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 00:20
Glenndini,
I'm sure you are right, however not all numbers are the same.
The instruction book for my old Waeco CF35 which has selectable cut-out points is as follows:
Low: Cut-out=10.4v, Cut-in=11.7v
High: Cut-out=11.3v, Cut-in=12.5v
I leave it set on high but one of these days I'll
test it for peace of mind.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Wok - Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 08:58
Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 08:58
Hi Allan,
" Why, when it is advised that batteries should not be discharged beyond 50% (12.2V) does the waeco cut off activate at 11.8V? "
The voltages are measured @ different points....
The [12V2] is measured @ thye battery terminals when the battery is unloaded & rested.
The [11V8] is measured @ the fridge's Terminals when the compressor is running.
The difference in voltage is an indication of the impedance that exists in the fridge + battery circuit.
eg...If the connection is a pair of wires directly attached to the battery & fridge....it is at least the sum of four terminals + the pair of cables + the impedance of the battery.
In Glenndini's example.....12V41 - 11V96 = V45
If the circuit is assumed to be resistive & the fridge draws 3A....the impedance is [from Ohm's Law] 150 milliohms & power lost is 1W35.
The sad part of lead-acid batteries is that the impedance value is usually quoted when its fullly charged & it rises as it discharges.ie the loss increases as the battery discharges :(
IMHO
eng hoe
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Follow Up By: Member - Allan B (QLD) - Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 09:48
Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 09:48
Wok,
Shouldn't you be addressing Glenndini. It was his expression you quoted.
In any case Glenndini had already made the point re loaded and unloaded battery voltage in a somewhat less scientific manner.
I understand your explanation as I am an electrical engineer however your use of notation as 12v2 rather than 12.2v is likely to confuse those not in the industry.
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Reply By: Glenndini - Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 12:45
Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 12:45
Firstly to all those who advocate that "batteries will die anyway so why bother looking after them", I wish I was selling batteries to you.
As an electronic engineer with over thirty years experience designing, installing and running telecommunications equipment on 50V banks of batteries on what might be called an industrial scale, I find this topic interesting. Sorry to disturb your new year if you don't.
I'm trying to answer a members reasonable question without getting too scientific.
The initial question was simply why does Waeco have their battery monitor cut off set at what seems to be a very low threshold. The newer waeco models have three "modes" that can be set. These are Low, Medium and High. The cut off voltages are 10.1V, 11.4V and 11.8V respectively.
To most people these seem very much below the suggested lower value for a 50% discharged battery of 12.2V.
I simply made the point that the 50% discharge voltage of 12.2V is an open circuit voltage and should not be confused with the voltage seen by the fridge when its compressor is running.
I did the tests again last night. Set the monitor "mode" to medium expecting a cut off at 11.4V.
The fridge behaved as expected and cut off when 11.4V was reached during compressor operation.
The battery was then tested in open circuit configuration and found to read 12.26V.
A specific gravity reading was then taken and found to read 1205. These readings are indeed consistent with the battery being at just under 50% discharge.
If a person wants to keep their batteries as much as possible above the 50% discharge level then the waeco monitor works for this even if at first glance the figures could be somewhat misleading.
I don't know why it all has to get so complicated by some.
AnswerID:
397180
Follow Up By: Gramps - Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 12:57
Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 12:57
LOL and people wonder why dullards ( i.e. those without any electrical engineering background ) like us get confused.
Regards
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Follow Up By: Ianw - Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 19:50
Friday, Jan 01, 2010 at 19:50
The original question was actually-
Quote--"What can I discharge the battery to? I've heard many people discharge their batteries to less than 12.2
any suggestions or explanation would be greatly appreciated "
All the other crap is ijust confusing people
Ian
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Monday, Jan 04, 2010 at 10:58
Monday, Jan 04, 2010 at 10:58
"I don't know why it all has to get so complicated by some."
- because they simply don't WANT to accept that measuring the "fullness" of a battery is nowhere near as easy as measuring the level in a
water tank.
- someone publishes a volts-versus-charge level table - and they just aren't interested in unnecessary complications like resting the battery, temperature, battery chemistry etc.
FollowupID:
666424
Reply By: Von Helga - Saturday, Jan 02, 2010 at 22:19
Saturday, Jan 02, 2010 at 22:19
Waeco Shopper,
I'll think you will find that the settings have more to do with you being able to start the car in the morning (yes I know you are using an Aux battery however Waeco doesn't know that) and not a lot to do with your Aux battery condition.
It would be perfectly acceptable to have the starter battery ACCASIONALLY go as low as 11.8 overnight and still be able to start the engine in the morn.
But most of us prefer to run our fridges via Aux batteries just in case.
The point is not how far can you can discharge it to but more about how long can I keep the SOC up as high as possible.
I also assume you have the battery charger connected to this battery now ( given your on the net) and not just running on the battery alone???
Cheers
Trevor
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