gas storage

Submitted: Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 at 20:28
ThreadID: 75454 Views:4311 Replies:3 FollowUps:11
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Hi All,
I have been using autogas for my gas bottles around the house and van for years with no noticeable effect except in price. Am considering installing a small lpg tank under my van between the chassic approx 40-60 lts with the appropriate protection and clearance. I would also install a gauge inside next to water tank gauge so l could monitor the level and fill it when available when l fill the car. To me it makes sense to do this as it would free space in the compartment where the two bottles are and give me a longer supply of gas for use in remote areas where lpg is scarce and not to mention cost. would be interested in your thoughts of this and if anyone has already done it
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Reply By: Notso - Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 at 20:51

Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 at 20:51
You probably already know about this:

Gas Useage

So I won't labour the point.
AnswerID: 400866

Follow Up By: Best Off Road - Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 at 21:06

Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 at 21:06
N,

I wouldn't bet on the validity of that website, anyone can put up what they like on the internet and make spurious claims about legality. People have an unfortunate faith in the veracity of the www world.

Anyway, assuming it is correct (and I don't), one can get 100% propane from Supagas outlets that meets all of the supposed legal requirements.

Butane, Propane?? It all burns. I can't see the slightest danger in running one or the other.

Jim.

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FollowupID: 670132

Follow Up By: Member - Duncs - Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 at 21:46

Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 at 21:46
Try checking the UN numbers for auto gas and LPG. I don't think there will be much difference.

Duncs
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Follow Up By: Member - Duncs - Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 at 22:05

Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 at 22:05
I saved you the trouble and did it myself.

The UN Number for LPG is 1075

The UN Number for Auto-gas is..... you guessed it 1075.

Now I know that this does not mean they are the same thing but it does mean they behave in the same way.

The guidelines for dealing with an escape for these very similar substances are the same. When bushwalking I use an LPG stove. There are two different fuel mixes available. One is for high altitude low temp work and the other is for day to day average stuff. The high altitude has more butane in it because it is slightly more volatile and will evaporate at a lower temperature, making it easier to burn. The biggest difference between the two is price.

I would say that if you use enough gas to make the fiddleing around to fit this tank worthwhile then using auto-gas is not only safe but sensible.

Disclaimer:
However I am not a chemist or a fuel expert and I would encourage you to do your own research. Maybe contact a university and see what they have to say. You could even ring JJJ and ask Dr. Karl, I am sure he would have an educated opinion. He has in the past been a keen off roader so he would understand your reasons too.

Duncs
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FollowupID: 670142

Follow Up By: Notso - Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 at 22:31

Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 at 22:31
Another link?

More stuff
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Follow Up By: mikehzz - Monday, Jan 25, 2010 at 08:50

Monday, Jan 25, 2010 at 08:50
Two valid points make it a dumb thing to do. The risk of carbon monoxide poisoning and the insurance implications. Propane and butane are gases at room temp but are different much the same way that petrol and deisel are similar but different. They all burn. Being gases, it's more difficult to see the difference. Anyway, what the hell do smart people know?
Mike
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Follow Up By: Theo58 - Monday, Jan 25, 2010 at 10:27

Monday, Jan 25, 2010 at 10:27
Hi guys thanks for to comments, Best off road and Duncs l tend to agree with what you've written my only other concern is vapouring the gas as the auto tank is liquid withdrawl. Mickhzz your mention of carbon monoxide is noted but with 2 of 3 appliances exhausting outside and the stove used rarely and the van being well vented l dont believe this to be a great concern. as l said early l have been using this gas in bottle form fill with auto gas for years already so l dont feel l am worried in that regard, the insurance l think will be an issue if l tell but at the same we are already carrying portable bottle on board with approval so you think one mounted securly under the van would be safer thanks again wil keep researching before l decide cheers
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Follow Up By: Bob of KAOS - Monday, Jan 25, 2010 at 17:16

Monday, Jan 25, 2010 at 17:16
Best Off Road

I found another dodgy website for you "LPG Australia"

They say:

Safety, Standards and Regulations
LPG Australia is committed to maintaining and improving industry safety standards. Far more LPG Australia are not a certifying organisation but may endorse properly certified equipment which conforms to an Australian Standard.

LPGA Endorsed Equipment List 2008 - detailed information on a specific safety or technical issue, contact a Technical Manager at mail@alpga.asn.au .

LPGA Endorsed Equipment List September 2008 - LPG FOR HOUSEHOLD USE AND LPG FOR AUTO USE ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.

There are two types of LPG commonly used in Australia. The traditional LPG used for heating and in barbecue bottles is propane. Domestic appliances and camping equipment are designed for this gas. The LPG used for vehicles generally consists of a mixture of propane and butane.

This "autogas" is dispensed at service stations and must not be used for domestic and leisure appliances. LPG has been used safely in Australia since before the Second World War.

Australian Standards for LPG equipment and appliances and for storage and handling are among the world's best. We can all continue to benefit from the convenience of LPG provided we:

- respect LPG as a concentrated form of energy;
- take care of our LPG equipment; and
- read safety information and adhere to Australian Standards and Codes of Practice."

Unfortunately, you have to shell out over a hundred bucks to see the relevant Australian Standard AS 5601.

So while you may save a couple of bucks a week by using auto gas, and there may well be different tax implications behind the different prices, I wouldn't dismiss the science from a position of ignorance. I'd hate to see you nominated for a Darwin award.
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Follow Up By: Notso - Monday, Jan 25, 2010 at 17:40

Monday, Jan 25, 2010 at 17:40
Yes well, that pretty well states the facts.

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Follow Up By: Best Off Road - Monday, Jan 25, 2010 at 20:17

Monday, Jan 25, 2010 at 20:17
I think you've got it right Theo, let common sense prevail.

Some of our legislators are nothing more than underworked, overpaid, public servants who err on the side of caution, rather than really investigating the issues. Far easier to submit a standard that will cover their arse, than to do some real work and put out something useful that will benefit the public.

A BBQ or Gas Stove is a fairly crude device. It relies on a regulator and jet size. My BBQ at home runs off Natural Gas. This requires fitting jets with a slightly larger hole than for Propane and a different regulator. It's that simple. And the kit for home modification can be bought from any Hardware Store, no need to have a licensed gasfitter install it.

Now a modern, fuel injected (and when converted to injected LPG) petrol motor is a complex device by comparison. It can somehow run on any variety of gas and yet a basic old BBQ is specific fuel reliant? That beggars belief.

Jim.



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FollowupID: 670263

Follow Up By: mikehzz - Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 at 07:44

Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 at 07:44
Not much common sense in that. Adjusting from propane to natural gas is the exact opposite of using butane. Butane doesn't burn as easily or completely as propane, it's a bigger molecule. Natural gas is the lightest hydrocarbon so burns easily and completely. As for an LPG engine, I certainly wouldn't sit in a room with one running. They pump out a fair bit of carbon monoxide under the right conditions.
So the lazy boffins are saying don't use butane in domestic/enclosed situations, only use it in motors for cars where the dangerous gases can disperse? That seems like common sense to me.
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Follow Up By: Notso - Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 at 09:14

Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 at 09:14
What he said!
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Reply By: Member - Serendipity(WA) - Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 at 23:21

Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 at 23:21
This has been discussed before but is always pertinent to discuss again.

In previous threads owners of Winnebago travel homes said that their vehicle gas tanks were also piped to the gas cooker. This is a standard procedure and done under gas licensing regulations.

Many garage stations especially country will still fill camping gas bottles from a tapped line off that big white tank used for cars.

When travelling throughout New Zealand most garage stations have a weighing camp gas bottle station in amongst the bowsers.

People regularily use their car gas to suppliment their camping needs.

Look up the difference between Propane and Butane and it is very minor. Like burning a log of Jarrah or Mountain ash. It all burns.

So long as the gas fittings are done by a licensed gas plumber there is not a problems.

David







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AnswerID: 400889

Reply By: trainslux - Monday, Jan 25, 2010 at 09:58

Monday, Jan 25, 2010 at 09:58
Ive seen several camper trailers set up like this. large auto cylinder across the A frame.
They had gas lights, cooker, and fridge.
I would assume that they could stay in one spot for a considerable time before requiring a refill.

If I was going gas, thats what I would seriously consider.
Along with all the required safety gear, auto shut off valves etc.

Trains
AnswerID: 400911

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