Police need your help

Submitted: Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 11:02
ThreadID: 75561 Views:2781 Replies:3 FollowUps:24
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Reply By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 11:40

Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 11:40
G'day Gramps,

Hoping all is well - I presume they want a confession?

Kind regards
AnswerID: 401459

Follow Up By: Gramps - Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 12:09

Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 12:09
G'day Beatit,

LOL, a confession tends to make their job a lot easier. Trust all is well with you and yours as well.

FollowupID: 670785

Reply By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 14:16

Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 14:16
Suspect they may not get help Gramps.

I have a lot to do with people that might be described as in that category and the following heavily curtailed illustration was related to me recently.

Police seeking witness support for a knife incident came to someone I know.

Helping out would be a line ball descision , but that person was subject to a recent 2km over the limit speeding fine, and this basically was the nail in the coffin and no help was given.
Robin Miller

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AnswerID: 401479

Follow Up By: Gramps - Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 14:27

Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 14:27

That would be a sad reflection on the maturity of that individual. Suppose they'd be the first to complain when these areas are then locked up and they're prevented from accessing them.

FollowupID: 670811

Follow Up By: Nargun51 - Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 14:44

Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 14:44
I hope you took him to task about this at great length, loudness and with liberal use of profanity!

I also hope that in his conversation he mentioned what he knew to you and that you have relayed this to the police (or at least Crimestoppers).
FollowupID: 670813

Follow Up By: DIO - Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 14:51

Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 14:51
It is not uncommon or unusual for Police to ask for witnesses to come forward to assist with an enquiry. Those present at the said location may not be suspect(s) however their observations may assist in identifying or locating the person(s) responsible. If a person was not responsible for nor involved in any crime why wouldn't they want to assist with clearing the matter up. Particularly something as serious as a deliberately (if that is the case) lit fire. Arson is an horrendously cowardly crime. Frequently such fires not only cause irreperable damage but also loss of life. In some States, arson, committed on a residential premises carries a maximum life imprisonment. Considering the tremendous loss incurred last summer in the n/w Victorian countryside, I would have thought that everyone would have been 'hyper-sensitive' to such activities such as a carelessly lit fire on a fire ban day (or day of high risk etc) or an act of arson (deliberately lit fire for the purpose of property damage/destruction). Remember, whether you like it or not, Police are acting for and on behalf of the community and it is their sworn duty to uphold the law, prevent loss of life or destruction of property. they are only doing their job.
FollowupID: 670814

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 15:29

Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 15:29
Hi Guys

Its amazing the different dream worlds and attitudes we are all exposed to. Inherrent in these followups is the suppersition that co-operating is always in society's best interests.

There are clear examples of when it is , and also when it is not.
From this and other examples I could relate , people make there own judgements based on their experiences in total and I would not pre-judge them.

In the simple case I related , the unintended consequences of "over the top " policing cost co-operation.

I.E. Their is a net loss to society, and like it or not this is the real situation out there.

I thought about this a lot while watching some campfires in the rain on a day of total fireban once, thinking how dumb the system was.

Then the system was changed and our state was divided into zones , and those lighting the campfires would now have been ok.

One day their common sense decision would have been legal and the next day not !

Robin Miller

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FollowupID: 670819

Follow Up By: Gramps - Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 16:16

Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 16:16
No change Robin. "If you run along the edge don't be surprised if you occasionally fall over" - old Gramps truism

p.s.if your mate had have been travelling at the speed limit or , Heaven forbid, 1 or 2ks below it, he would'nt have had a problem. Like I said in my first reply, he's definitely an immature individual.

FollowupID: 670824

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 16:28

Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 16:28
Hi Gramps

Is immaturity caused by sticking to an arbitary limit regardless of the circumstances or by considering all the available data and doing your best to make an intelligent decision ?
Robin Miller

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FollowupID: 670828

Follow Up By: Gramps - Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 16:31

Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 16:31

Please !!! Don't tell me you're going to push that ridiculous line that goes something like " I'm an experienced driver. I've driven all over the world. I, and only I, will decide what speed I travel at and to Hell with everyone else"

I thought the idiot that continually pushed that line threw a hissy fit and departed the forum.

FollowupID: 670830

Follow Up By: Nargun51 - Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 17:10

Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 17:10

Your acquaintance may have had information pertaining to a knife incident. The police asked for this. In his dream world this information and what the police and the courts may make of this is of lesser importance than his traffic fine.

By you vigorous defence of him, you obviously also believe this.

With apologies to the police on this forum, the percentage of crimes solved by CSI or Columbo type investigations is minimal. Crimes are solved by one of 4 reasons; somebody saw something, the crim has a big mouth, the crim was unlucky or the crim has room temperature IQ. Cops have difficulty solving crimes committed by bright, quiet and lucky crims

Your acquaintance may have not had any relevant information; but he obviously has a superior grounding in criminal investigations and was able to determine that anything he may have known wasn’t important.

If he saw or knew something and didn’t relay it, he is letting the crim get away with it.

Amazing how you can link anti social behaviours like knife offences with travelling 5km over the speed limit

Ever seen the scene of crime photos of a knife attack? You observe that it is surprising how much blood the human body can hold as you swallow back the nausea

FollowupID: 670834

Follow Up By: OREJAP - Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 18:16

Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 18:16
Whether a person decides to make a report/statement to the authorities it's THEIR choice & so endeth the lesson. Robin, Let me put you straight on something I have had lengthy conversations with Police friends of mine on numerous subjects including speeding motorists apprehended by police & those sent traffic tickets via a speed camera detection. The average cop works on the old 10% rule regarding speeding motorist. why because the average car speedo is & can be at law up to 10% above or below the indicated speed on that vehicles speedo. So if for example your Nissan Patrol is indicating 100 k/pH you are more than likely travelling at a speed below the MAXIMUM displayed speed of 100. Probably 93. Unless you drive past a marked police car that is doing the speed limit you will probably get stopped & the attitude exam begins. If you travel past a speed camera (oops sorry the state Govt call them safety cameras) at 67 in a 60 zone you will have your picture taken. The Traffic Camera Office that processes that offence deduct 3 K/pH for any radar detection if it is a cop he/she take off 2 k/pH for a radar detection (this deters offenders contesting the matter in a court of law by introducing expert evidence to rebutt the evidence of actual speed and radar beam etc) therefore the detected speed & now alleged speed differ so a motorist detected at 67 Now gets a fine applicable to 64 K/pH in a 60 Zone. 3 Km's are taken off the detected speed because it is a speed camera detection. I have just got off the phone to my friend in the Traffic Camera Office & he has never heard of anyone being sent a ticket for 2 Km's over any limit & if another member of that office did so your friend would have good grounds to ask for a warning (if they have not had a speeding ticket in the last two years) and or most certainly contest the ticket & a Magistrate would throw it out of court as trivial!!! Unless of course your friend is a recidivist offender!!! Another point for you, Police do not perform speed camera duties in Victoria & I know I am assuming the offence took place in Vic but I make the point anyway. If people out there want to blame someone get your facts in order and lobby the Federal Govt. to ammend the ADR that allow vehicles (especially Japanese vehicle) to be compliance plated in Australia for meeting the ADR when the speedo is grossly inaccurate. My last point is, What was the vehicles speedo indicating when your friend was detected it would have been showing well over the maximum permitted speed. My new NT shows 109 k/pH on the speedo but I am actually doing 100. Mitsubishi Mtrs will not fix it because they do not have to, it complies with the Aust, design Rules!!!
FollowupID: 670841

Follow Up By: Member - Timbo - Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 18:34

Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 18:34
I think some of you people are jumping to conclusions! Robin seems to be saying: whether you agree with it or not, this is what is happening in the community..." (but he seems to be deliberately vague on whether or not he agrees with the action taken!). It is well known (and some of you have mentioned it) that the Police depend on community assistance for solving many crimes. If they get large parts of the community ticked off, their job is going to become increasingly difficult.

It's a complicated issue - the cops penalise someone for a "minor" offence, and that someone therefore decides he doesn't like cops anymore so he doesn't help when they need his assistance. But what is a "minor" offence? It will often be different in the eyes of the offender or the eyes of the Police, or even the community. And if you justify a small compromise now, it naturally progresses to larger and larger compromises later. You're either keeping the law or breaking it.

But the actions of the certain acquaintance are very short-sighted - what should he/she expect when there is some crime committed against him/her or someone close? Will he/she then expect people in the community to cooperate with the Police so they can get to the bottom of the crime?

We are each responsible to do what we know is right even if we might have a chip on our shoulder about a speeding fine (ie. two wrongs don't make a right!).
FollowupID: 670843

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 20:13

Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 20:13
Hi Guys
Gramps, I am a lousy mechanic at the best of times and I am fighting the odds to fit a new radiator to the patrol to-night so I expect you to keep this mob in line at least till to-morrow - so some quick points

I make no claims , rather more or less as Timbo explained that this is a real world situation and I get these people coming to me presenting these situations and these are the arguements used.

Its pretty basic really and usually boils down to " you hurt me and I don't care what the situation is I'm not going to assist you - and as Nargun says , a case is probably lost.

Hi Nargun & Orejap

I think I said 2km not 5km and I believe I could probably show you a 1km over fine (Vic) but can't verify at moment.
Never got one myself , but stacks come through company accounts.

Taking up your point , that means 1km + 3km = 4km recorded however that can be 1km in practise - the 3km is specifically for reading in accuracies and hence 1km is real in a minority of cases.
(Note - I know the system well and have been retained to investigate it from an electronics point of view)

P.S. Orejap I have won against Nissan for when my speedo read 100 at 93 when there was a 6% allowable error but was in the 1990's before so many ADR's

Hope I answered everyone !

Robin Miller

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FollowupID: 670865

Follow Up By: Davo_60 - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 00:03

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 00:03

Yes negative policing will affect police support, but generally only when it is police that need support, usually in court, perhaps on the street, or witnesses to a police assault. It works in the reverse too.

However it is laughable that someone would think it is going to affect police one iota if they do not provide evidence in support of a victim. That is a rather narrow and reactive way at viewing the world, in the same way that the person got done for speeding and now it's everyone else's fault it seems - or the fault of police. I expect it was from a camera, but either way 2km per hour over is ridiculous I agree. However the government will push for it because they are 'tough on crime' and that wins votes from time to time. That, and it is a wonderful source of revenue. Change your vote.

I don't believe that the majority of the population would not support a victim on the basis of a speeding fine. Those who would not tend to be perpetual victims in their own minds.

FollowupID: 670892

Follow Up By: Gramps - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 07:57

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 07:57

Sorry, that last hot chocolate turned the lights out :)))

FollowupID: 670908

Follow Up By: The Landy - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 10:22

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 10:22
Interesting read!

My two bobs worth is that if you aren't willing to come forward so be it, what goes around usually comes around.

However in the situation Robin indicates it is the victim of the crime that his friend hasn't supported....not the police, they are simply the investigators of the incident. The actions appear to have missed those it was intended for and affected the one person that needed the assistance.

Strange world hey!
FollowupID: 670936

Follow Up By: Rob! - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 11:31

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 11:31
If anybody thinks that Australia has "Negative Policing" than they obviously haven't travelled very far past the Australian borders.
FollowupID: 670948

Follow Up By: Kumunara (NT) - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 14:11

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 14:11
Each state is different but in SA the speed camera's are not operated by police officers.

Police officers have to comply with departmental policy which means that drivers are only issued a notice if well above the speed limit.

Speed camera operators do not have to comply and drivers receive an infringement notice at lower speeds than issued by police.

The infringement notices are issued by the police dept, not individual police officers using their dicretionary powers.
Life's great and it just keeps getting better

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FollowupID: 670977

Follow Up By: Best Off Road - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 20:15

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 20:15
Robin's point is very valid.

One can develop a certain scepticism towards the Police if one has experienced untoward practices on their part.

Years ago the wallopers tried to "fit me up". It was only a traffic issue, but was going to cause me to lose my licence. The crux of it was that a Cop swore a false affidavit.

I was able to prove that the miserable bastard had broken laws that he had sworn to uphold and of course the charge was withdrawn.

It often makes me wonder what lengths some of then may go to in more serious matters.


FollowupID: 671035

Follow Up By: The Boss - Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 at 04:47

Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 at 04:47
So some poor bugger gets stabbed and bleeds to death, while mr uphimself sits at home sooking about a speeding fine.

Whats this country coming to?

Lets just hope he is the next bloke to get stabbed, and im the one who witnesses it.

FollowupID: 671072

Reply By: travelmate2 - Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 23:01

Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 23:01
when do school holidays finish???? LOL you need to stop reading the paper.. :-)
AnswerID: 401550

Follow Up By: Gramps - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 07:56

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 07:56
LOL Kovac, gave up reading papers years ago.

FollowupID: 670907

Follow Up By: travelmate2 - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 11:32

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 11:32
Al. you to go back and winge of the other site or is that not fun anymore..
FollowupID: 670949

Follow Up By: Gramps - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 13:14

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 13:14

Are you back to stalking again? Won't anyone else talk to you ?

FollowupID: 670963

Follow Up By: Member - Mark G Gulmarrad - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 21:46

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 21:46

wouldnt be my idea of a travel mate :-(((
FollowupID: 671047

Follow Up By: Gramps - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 23:36

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 23:36

You'd need a damn good interpreter, that's for sure LOL

FollowupID: 671064

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