Refuelling with car running

Submitted: Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 02:59
ThreadID: 75585 Views:3126 Replies:9 FollowUps:24
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2 questions for ya's all.

Firstly, feel like i already know the answer to both of these but better to be safe then sorry.

Number one question is, is it ok to run a Waeco under a tonneau with 2 full jerry cans of Diesel?

Number Two question is, is it ok to refuel the vehicle with jerry cans while engine is still running?

I see bus's and trucks doing it all the time, and because i wanna just top up on side of the road, i dont wanna have to wait while turbo cools down before turning car off and refuelling.

Or is it advisable to just wait the extra 3 minutes.

In preparation for trip to Perth to see ACCA DACCA. Cant wait

Cheers folks
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Reply By: Kelvo - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 04:12

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 04:12
I would have no worrys doing both of the above, proving it is diesel (as you said).

Diesel requires compression to ignite, you will not get this in either case.

The same answer that you had?

Regards,
Kelvo
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Follow Up By: Dion - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 07:37

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 07:37
Dieso doesn't just require compression and heat. As it is a combustible fuel (not flamable), it will also ignite if supported by a wick, ie rag

Cheers,
Dion.
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Follow Up By: Member - Bucky - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 07:42

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 07:42
Kelvo

I tend to agree with most of what you are on about

BUT
Spray diesel and that's a different "kettle of fish".

Think of boilers, not the Mrs variety, but the steam generator type, !
Bugger all compression there.

Cheers
Bucky
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Follow Up By: Kelvo - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 08:24

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 08:24
Dion and Bucky,

You are both correct in what you say, but in the two cases asked about I see no danger of ignition happening.

"Number one question is, is it ok to run a Waeco under a tonneau with 2 full jerry cans of Diesel?" Providing the jerry cans are closed or there are no diesel soaked rags - that are already burning - under the cover no source of ignition.

"Number Two question is, is it ok to refuel the vehicle with jerry cans while engine is still running?" Unless you spray the diesel into a mist and provide a source of ignition - Heating diesel to above 200degC (I think) will start ignition but the diesel must be kept at that temperature - it will not ignite. But I think you would have trouble misting the diesel when pouring from a jerry can.

Like I said I would have no worrys about doing either.
But what I think is safe and what someone else thinks is safe could be two different things!

Have I just added fuel to the fire?! ;-)

Regards,
Kelvo
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Follow Up By: Member - mazcan - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 13:55

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 13:55
hi the boss
i'm ok with both providing the containers have a good seal

i would be more concerned about how the wanko fridge is going to survive under a hot black tonnea cover in the sun
imho i think it would be struggling
as a farmer from the past i could'nt count the number of times i refueled vehicles and machines ----- except for auxillary motors ------ while they where still running without any drama
cheers
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Reply By: Gramps - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 08:00

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 08:00
"Or is it advisable to just wait the extra 3 minutes."

Surely you can't be that strapped for time ? Why risk it ?

Regards

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Follow Up By: Member - Old Girl (QLD) - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 12:56

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 12:56
I'm with Gramps. We have only done it once. Christmas eve when our alternator packed it in. We had to get to our destination to fit the new one and didn't have enough fuel to get there. Jump start with a caravan in a busy petrol station on Christmas eve was not going to happen.
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Follow Up By: Gramps - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 13:10

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 13:10
"I'm with Gramps ....... "

Careful Old Girl , that could lose you a lot of friends LOL

Regards
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Follow Up By: Member - Old Girl (QLD) - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 13:36

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 13:36
Righty O, I agree with then.
Funny bugger.
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Follow Up By: Gramps - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 13:40

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 13:40
Hahahaha sometimes it gets a bit too serious around here.

Regards
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Follow Up By: The Boss - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 16:29

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 16:29
Yeah ya right, but will be covering 1500kms that day, so will be pushing it for time. Will only need to do this once, but there will be smokers travelling with me so might aswell just wait while they have there smoke and then refill.

Problem solved, cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 17:10

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 17:10
The other point to be made is this weird pre-conception that a turbo MUST be cooled down before shutting a motor down.

If you were to fit a EGT gauge (instead of a stupid turbo timer), you would very quickly realise that there are very few occasions when you would normally be tempted to switch an engine off at a time when the turbo would need to be cooled down beforehand.

Assume you have been running along the highway at 100k/h and decide you're going to pull up for smoko or to refuel etc. The EGT would possibly be about 400oC going along (unless you've been slogging up a long hill etc). By the time you back her off and slow down to a stop, the EGTs will have reduced to about 250oC. This is a safe temp at which to shut the turbo down without damage.

If however, you HAVE just slooged up a big hill and have to pull over at the top (or half way up) and the EGTs are hitting 550 to 600oC, then you would probably want to let her idle for a couple of minutes before switching off.

I had a turbo timer on my first diesel (a 1993 RX Patrol with Safari Turbo). I got "chipped" by a copper once in Cooma because I shut her off, took the key out and walked into the shops with it still running (2 or 3 minute timer set). He informed me I could be booked for leaving a vehicle running and not being behind the wheel. I still used to do it on plenty of occasions, but with my next Patrol I did some research and found that all those years I'd been letting the turbo cool down, it wasn't anywhere near hot enough to have bothered anyway..... hahahaha

We live and learn i guess. Turbo timers are a complete waste of time IMHO (provided you are an "aware" type of driver who has a mechanical "feel" for his rig).

Roachie
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Follow Up By: The Boss - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 17:47

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 17:47
Have to agree and disagree at the same time Roachie.

A diesel fitter mate of mine swears by them, Its not just about the temp of the turbo, its about allowing it the correct amount of time to lubricate the bearings to prevent tarnishing. It wont happen overnight, but it will happen.

I agree though that it doesnt require it at all times, but when its been running for hours on end, i would rather take the precaution. I will definitely be looking into getting an EGT gauge fitted though.

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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 22:36

Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 22:36
I'm with Roachie.
Modern turbo's with modern bearing material and todays synthetic oils all mean turbo timers are a waste of time.

If they were required then the car would come fitted with one from new by the manufacturer with instructions to use it.

By the time you have slowed down to stop the EGT has dropped sufficiently to be a non issue.



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Follow Up By: The Boss - Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 22:56

Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 22:56
Well in my manual it says to idle car after heavy use or driving at highway speeds. Thats a good enough reason for me.

Why do you have an EGt gauge, If they were required then the car would come fitted with one from new by the manufacturer with instructions to use it.

Hyundai Getz dont even have a temp gauge anymore, does that mean there not required?

I take my advice from people in the game, those who have the knowledge and experience, and those build the motors and those that have to rebuild the motors.

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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Monday, Feb 01, 2010 at 03:08

Monday, Feb 01, 2010 at 03:08
If it was a problem then you could realistically expect to see dozens if not hundreds of turbo charged engines dropping their respective guts all over the country.
It simply does not happen other wise I have no doubt it would be well written up on this site.

The other argument is that it will extend the life of the turbo/engine??
With most modern diesels pretty well good for about 500,000 km's it begs the question of how much more or less difference than this will it make??

I don't have an EGT in my vehicles and given that I can says its fairly improbable that I would come to a sudden stop after driving at high speed for long periods and then immediately turn off my engine it would be quite reasonable to assume that the few minutes of slowing down as you would do say coming into a town or city is sufficient to drop the EGT without issues.

I have both a turbo diesel and a turbo petrol (XR6 Turbo) and neither manual makes any comment about idle down periods.

But if you want a turbo timer then thats fine after all its your money.

Cheers
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Reply By: Snowy 3.0iTD - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 08:15

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 08:15
Diesel has a flashpoint of 62 deg C and a Auto-ignition temp of 210 dec. Meaning that it has to be at least 62 deg C before it will start forming flammable vapours, and any ignition source naked flame spark etc, has to be at least 210 deg C for these vapours to then ignite. Bearing in mind that these vapours have to be within a narrow air/fuel ratio to ignite, too high a concentratrion they won't ignite, too low they won't ignite.

So summing up the diesel fuel would have to be at least 62 deg C (sittting in the sun on a rather hot day) you would then have to be smoking a cigarette or standing there with a lit match, and the air/fuel ratio just right! Not impossible but highly unlikely, and on cool to mild days not even worth worrying about. But service station attendants get upset when you fill up a vehicle with the engine still running.

Snowy
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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 11:36

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 11:36
Prob think that you are about to do a runner :-))
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Follow Up By: The Boss - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 16:33

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 16:33
Oh right, when i worked at a fuel deopt, i used to test diesel coming off the ships and we flash tested it at 85 degrees. If it flashed it was sent back?
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Follow Up By: Snowy 3.0iTD - Monday, Feb 01, 2010 at 11:22

Monday, Feb 01, 2010 at 11:22
The Boss

Thank's for the info, you are probably correct, I'll take practical experience over text-book information any day.

Cheers Snowy
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Reply By: Member - Carl- Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 09:41

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 09:41
To expand this to petrol.

My understanding is that provided you are filling a vehicle petrol tank, not smoking or wearing a certain type of dress there is little risk of a fire either.

The cellphone myth has as they say, been busted, in regard to making calls while refueling.

Do not get me wrong here. I am not advocating doing these things but just seeking "just the facts jack".
AnswerID: 401587

Reply By: dbish - Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 13:47

Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 13:47
Petrol hasto have the right fuel air mix to light or explode, All fuel injected petrol vehicles have a 12V brush & comutator motor running in petrol the fuel flows through the motor (if you want proof cut one open) The only time I have seen a pump go poof & flames come out of the fittings is when it was run on a work bench with it sucking air. Just for any one whose curious. Also the only time I have seen Diesel burn with a motor running was a cracked Injector pipe spraying onto a hot exhaust manifold. Daryl
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Reply By: Member -Tukka (WA) - Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 at 21:08

Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 at 21:08
Pretty sure ill be driving the 1500 kays that day so we should do it in 5 hours driving that new boss of yours, no one said anything about stopping to smoke either he he
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Follow Up By: Dave(NSW) - Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 at 23:21

Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 at 23:21
How are you going to do 1500 Kays in 5 hours?
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Follow Up By: BuggerBoggedAgain - Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 22:22

Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 22:22
And police wonder why the road toll is up?

300 kkk'sss an hour, thats for the one, Tukka, his mate below says he'll do it in 4nhalf with one hour rest
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Follow Up By: The Boss - Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 23:05

Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 23:05
Yeah us young fellas ay, do everything at a thousand miles an hour.

Pity Tukka's eyes cant see 30 feet in front of him. He has a hard time scratching his own nose.
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Follow Up By: Member -Tukka (WA) - Monday, Feb 01, 2010 at 10:35

Monday, Feb 01, 2010 at 10:35
Its a pity the new BT50 cant do anything over 110 kph...

300 kph in the old tray back is understandable
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Reply By: The Boss - Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 02:44

Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 02:44
He He, what sort of creepy gay laugh is that?

Will be pretty hard for you to drive when ya strapped down in the back, baking in the hot sun.

Thinking about it now, i better drive, cause i was planning on doing it in 4 1/2 hours. And thats with an hours rest.
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Follow Up By: Member -Tukka (WA) - Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 19:47

Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 19:47
Its the same creepy gay laugh i do when im creeping around your yard at night time pinching stuff off your half breed new 4x4....

Should be a good trip to perth for the concert, havent been down that part of wa for along time in the car, should be a little different.

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Reply By: Member - Doug T (NT) - Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 03:56

Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 03:56
Boss
Seeing as though I'm an old truckie I'll agree with most of the replies, but what's the big rush mate, Turbo would have probably cooled enough by time you drag out the cans, get the funnel, give yourself a scratch , you need to slow down mate , you'll be headin' for a heart attack.

.
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Follow Up By: The Boss - Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 23:12

Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 23:12
Hey Doug, when im on the road i just like to drive, i hate pulling over unless its for fuel or to swap drivers/check over car. I like to do a big day the first day and then the next day is only a short drive, so no peak hour traffic in the big smoke.

Funny you say that about heart attacks mate, i'm in the process of trying to solve some medical dramas. 4 ECGs, Echocardiograph, 6 blood tests, X rays, $2,000 in medical fees, take 2 tablets everyday for remainder of life, and they still cant find the problem. Back tomorrow for more tests. Probably throttle the doc if he gives me the same old story.
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Reply By: pop2jocem - Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 22:27

Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 22:27
Bossman, as others have said and I agree, firstly whats the rush. Surely 3 minutes per top up isn't going to make that much difference. Secondly if you're worried about the flammability of diesel (I presume this is the fuel we are talking about) pour some into a tin and try setting it alight with a match. Bet you have a hell of a job, in fact I'll bet you can't. Injecting a mist into air compressed and therefore heated to hundreds of degrees is a whole different ball game. This is why I love diesel powered vehicles for remote travel. Thirdly turbos cool off pretty quickly when you consider how long it takes to slow down and pull into a parking bay. But yes if the parking bay is halfway up a decent hill then by all means let the car idle for a bit.

Cheers Pop
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Follow Up By: The Boss - Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 23:02

Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 at 23:02
Cheers Pop. I agree im not in that much of a hurry.

But as for the Diesel, i worked with the stuff for 4 years in a Coastal Bulk Storage facility. We used to smoke while we bolted hoses together for discharging ships and such, and we all used the ol saying, ''ah, its only diesel''.

Until, the day we had to do a special fire training course. Let me tell you, we learnt a thing or two about diesel that day. Around 30 times we dropped a match into a bucket of diesel, and 30 times it lit up. We trialled petrol and diesel and the diesel was hotter, smokier, and harder to put out.

Still nowhere near as volatile as petrol though, but christ it was still easy to ignite.
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