E.10. Why?

Submitted: Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 15:08
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I was reported yesterday that next year we will not be able to fill up with Regular ULP. It is being replaced E.10. That means that if your vehicle is not designed to use E.10. you will be forced to fill up with Premium ULP. At my local Fuel Stop that is a difference of 14 cents a litre. This is obviously a ploy to rid the roads of older vehicles (Old Bangers) Not many vehicles are able to use E.10. My fuel cap reads ULP, but it does not state which ULP I should use. I can not read in my manual that I can use E.10. How many vehicles can safely use E.10. In my honest opinion, this is another government money grabbing exercise. The user pays . The only answer from the powers to be is it will save thousands of tons of pollution and save the ozone depletion. Will the petrol suppliers be asking for Carbon Credits for lowering their Carbon Footprint. Don't get me wrong. I am all for cleaning up the mess around the world, caused by the big polluters of the past. I do think that it is too late. We can try to protect our future, but it is impossible to right the past and it will always be with us. What's next???

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Reply By: Motherhen - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 15:13

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 15:13
As most of our vehicles are diesel (i do have a Corolla sedan that runs on ULP), we mostly use ULP for the quad bike, generator and water/firefighting pumps, i am concerned at how the phasing out of ULP will affect these motors. We don't want the fire fighter to fail at a critical time.

Motherhen
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Follow Up By: Member - steve. B... (NSW) - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 15:26

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 15:26
Motherhen.

As I read it, most petrol engines that run on ULP will have to use Premium ULP or go to Diesel. Then I suppose the next thing that will happen will be that all diesels will be " Bio-Diesels or recycled Fish & Chip Oil "

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Follow Up By: garrycol - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 15:45

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 15:45
Quote from steve. B "most petrol engines that run on ULP will have to use Premium ULP or go to Diesel." Sorry but petrol engines will not run on diesel - no matter what the powers say.

Also pure diesel will also be phased out the following year and B5 introduced.

BP has convinced the NSW Government that all petrol vehicles made from 1987 can run on E10 without damage.

Garry
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 15:50

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 15:50
Isn't BP the only chain that has no fuel blends?
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Follow Up By: Member - Lionel A (WA) - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 18:35

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 18:35
Garry, thats interesting.

My Nissan is an 87 model, however, runs the P40 motor which was produced many years previously, mine being the last model to run this motor.

What is it about a motor which would allow it to run on E10 ?.....or......
What is it about a motor which prevents it running on E10 ?


Cheers......Lionel.
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 19:04

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 19:04
Rubbers in the fuel systems of some older (and some newer) vehicles are not compatible with ethanol and dissolve/perish. Likewise ethanol does absorb water so could cause corrosion if left to sit. Ethanol is a little less powerful (not sure how to express that) but at 10% is probably not all that noticeable.

Ethanol works fine on engines designed from scratch for it (Holden exports engines to South America where 100% ethanol is available).
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Follow Up By: Ianw - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 20:34

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 20:34
100% ethanol only exists in a vacuum. The best you can get is around 96%, as water vapour is absorbed from the atmosphere.

Ian
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Follow Up By: Ianw - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 20:37

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 20:37
This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Foul Language Rule .

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Follow Up By: Member - Tony V (NSW) - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 21:47

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 21:47
To find out if your vehicle will run on E 10Click here for the full Government list

Oh by the way, if you have a pre 2004 petrol Nissan - well...

The main issue is not the engine but hoses, fuel tanks, seals and diaphragms....

2 Strokeowers, Outboards, chainsaws etc will need to use Premium Unleaded.

Sad situation......




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Reply By: Sir Kev & Darkie - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 15:23

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 15:23
Another thing they probably haven't thought of is how much pollution is created in the production of the Ethanol??


Cheers Kev
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Follow Up By: Member - steve. B... (NSW) - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 15:30

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 15:30
Hi Sir Kev.

As it is that Queensland produces the bulk of Ethanol. How about trying to become your local member and BAN it. But what will they replace Ethanol with ???

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Follow Up By: Sir Kev & Darkie - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 15:50

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 15:50
Steve,

The town of Dalby (just down the road from Chinchilla) has an ethanol plant. As for banning it, the current government would not allow that.

What to replace it with?? mmmmmmmmmm Maybe Crude oil hehehehehe


Cheers Kev
Russell Coight:
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Follow Up By: Hairs & Fysh (NSW) - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 16:00

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 16:00
As you know Kev, some small country town servo's don't carry Premium ULP.
I wonder what owners of older vehicles that live in these areas will do?

They don't seem to have a choice but to upgrade their vehicle.


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Follow Up By: Ianw - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 20:43

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 20:43
BAN ETHANOL ??? What are they going to make the Bundy out of then? We are all going to have to drink Beer? Nick off Steve B !!
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Follow Up By: Ianw - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 20:48

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 20:48
SIR Kev,,
CO2 is the only "pollution" produced when brewing ethanol. I guess the " Mr 'detailed programmatic specificity' Rudd carbon tax will fix that !!!

Ian
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Follow Up By: Bob of KAOS - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 23:03

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 23:03
I am curious as to your concerns about pollution in the production of ethanol.

Correct me if I am wrong but this is what I believe happens. Plants draw CO2 out of the atmosphere and by photosynthesis fuelled by sunlight produce hydrocarbons that are harvested and converted to ethanol. Crop waste may be used to provide energy for the process.

Petrol on the other hand is made from plant hydrocarbons that have been stored under the earth's surface for millennia.

Petrol comes from overseas, ethanol is a local product.

Guys, cut the hysteria and just suck it up (or go diesel).

Bob
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Follow Up By: Geoff (Newcastle, NSW) - Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 01:12

Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 01:12
Hello Bob of Killing and Other Stuff,

Your summary,
"Correct me if I am wrong but this is what I believe happens. Plants draw CO2 out of the atmosphere and by photosynthesis fuelled by sunlight produce hydrocarbons that are harvested and converted to ethanol. Crop waste may be used to provide energy for the process."

Is on a certain level absolutely correct. There's also a step or two before that!

Lets start from the beginning,

1. Clear some natural vegetation. (burn diesel and/or petrol)
2. Plow cleared land. (burn diesel and/or petrol)
3. Plant ethanol able crop. (burn diesel and/or petrol)
4. Harvest ethanol able crop. (burn diesel and/or petrol)
5. Deliver ethanol able crop to processing plant. (burn diesel and/or petrol)
6. Process ethanol able crop into ethanol (burn coal and/or natural gas to power process)
7. Deliver ethanol to fuel company for blending. (maybe make a profit from steps 1 to 6. burn diesel and/or petrol)
8. Fuel company blends into unleaded petrol. (definitely make a profit)
9. Fuel company delivers ethanol and unleaded blend to local service station. (burn diesel and/or petrol)

Yep, ethanol is as green as a politicians promise is honest.

As I tell my daughters, have a think about the whole picture, not just the agenda.

Geoff,
Landcruiser HDJ78,
Grey hair is hereditary, you get it from children. Baldness is caused by watching the Wallabies.

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Follow Up By: Sir Kev & Darkie - Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 08:01

Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 08:01
My point exactly Geoff.
People need to realise the Whole life process not just when it leaves the refinery.

Russell Coight:
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Follow Up By: Geoff (Newcastle, NSW) - Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 14:56

Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 14:56
Kev,
This very accurate sentence: "People need to realise the Whole life process not just when it leaves the refinery." needs to be applied to a lot of this "green" energy and transport market being stuffed down our throats.

Don't ever follow the production trail of a Prius or a Hybrid Camry from extracting raw materials to end of life disposal! The trail is absolutely terrifying in the pollution it creates!

One of the cleanest vehicle whole of life trails is actually the humble and much maligned US Army Humvee, no plastics trims, minimal copper wire meaning minimal PVC. The rest is easily recycled copper, steel and cast iron.

Geoff,
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Follow Up By: Bob of KAOS - Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 20:13

Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 20:13
Hah ha Geoff

Please don't ever try to run a farm with agrarian economics like yours. Maybe even consider using some of the ethanol or crop by products to replace your expensive diesel/petrol.

Maybe if some of the sugar cane farms sent the cane for ethanol production (land already cleared) instead of giving Australians ever fatter bums, we would all be better off.

Bob
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Reply By: Member - Troll 81 (QLD) - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 15:49

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 15:49
My 98 Patrol runs happily on the ethanol stuff and that's what I have been using for a long time now, purely because it's cheaper......that said there's a noticeable difference in fuel economy when using it.
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Follow Up By: Member Brian (Gold Coast) - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 18:25

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 18:25
Member - Troll 81 (QLD) replied:
>Snip<......that said there's a noticeable difference in fuel economy when using it.

Is the noticeable difference that you use more fuel?

I noticed my Tradie Truck (02 Mitsubishi Express) using more fuel, my B.I.L who is a mechanic tells me it's because the Ethanol in the mix evaporates (petrol evaporates too, so I'm not convinced about this...) .... I don't know if I believe that, but I have been running the "mid" grade of fuel for about a month now, and it doesn't seem to have made much of a difference.....

Cheers

Brian


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Follow Up By: Member - Troll 81 (QLD) - Monday, Feb 22, 2010 at 09:52

Monday, Feb 22, 2010 at 09:52
Yea I get about 50-100kms less if I use E-10
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Follow Up By: Member Brian (Gold Coast) - Monday, Feb 22, 2010 at 17:46

Monday, Feb 22, 2010 at 17:46
Wow... that's a big difference! My mileage (on a 45L tank in the "Misty" as opposed to the the Troll's 90-something) has dropped by about 40-50k's.... so indeed there is something to it I guess.... I just haven't seen it coming back since I've been using the "Mid" grade fuel.


Cheers

Brian


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Reply By: Member - Teege (NSW) - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 16:06

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 16:06
Steve
The reasoning behind it is quite simple. The NSW Labour Government needed the support of the Greens in the upper house to pass other legislation. So, in exchange for the greens supporting the legislation, the government brought in this ridiculous piece of legislation. It has nothing to do with revenue or anything else other than getting the Greenies onside!!!. The sooner this country gets rid of its upper houses with their wheeling and dealing minority parties the better. If we are silly enough to vote in a bad government, so be it. But this ridiculous idea that the upper house is a house of review should be knocked on the head. It is simply a holiday home for old party favourites and nutters in minority parties who can be elected with a miniscule percentage of the vote. I'm glad I got that off my chest!!!

teege
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Follow Up By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 16:41

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 16:41
You live in NSW right?

Try Queensland and there is no upper house, so the party in power gets to do whatever it wants with no checks for 3 to 4 years.
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Follow Up By: Member - Teege (NSW) - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 16:50

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 16:50
John
Half your luck!!! As I said, if the people are silly enough to vote in a dud government, so be it. But at least they were elected by the majority vote. Not with 2% of the vote, or in the case of the major parties, no primary votes for the 2nd, 3rd or maybe 4th dummy elected.

teege
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 20:53

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 20:53
The funniest thing is there is absalutly nothing green about ethonal as a fuel
- it makes the oil industry look posativly environmentally freindly
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Follow Up By: Ianw - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 23:07

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 23:07
Ethanol is the result of mixing a yeast with sugar and water, nothing more natural (green) than that !!
Ian
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 00:57

Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 00:57
Oh if that was only true

lets take suger for starters

vast areas of tropical QLD clear felled and replaced with monoculture so almost nothing can live there. what does live there is killed off by the huge amounts of pesticides required to grow stuff up there. if anythings left alive - they get burnt it to death

then theres the runoff from all the fertilizer which has been directly attributed to the crown of thorns starfish which has decimated the great barrier reef.
------------ but thats only the suger

despite your asertions all ethonal needs is yeast sugar and water
--- NOT TRUE

it also needs bio mass. Quite a few different sources, weat, corn and other stuff but all of it has one common requirement

wholesale land clearing replaced by monocultutre
The greatest threat to animals of this this planet is not climate change - it is habitat destruction which ethanol production is ALL about
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Reply By: pmacks - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 16:17

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 16:17
Hi people

to be honest i not that fussed about the E10 stuff in the car my problem is in the boat, i have 130 hp yamaha and the manuals states that NEVER use ethanol blended fuels because of the detremental effect on rubber hoses and the like? so i have no option but to use premium unleaded and this makes no diffence to the performance of the outboard or fuel economy but it does make my wallet lighter.

Peter
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Follow Up By: Member - steve. B... (NSW) - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 17:25

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 17:25
PMACKS.

I REST MY CASE !!!!

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Follow Up By: stevesub - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 19:38

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 19:38
Our boat with a 302 V8 and 300 litre fuel tank is going to cost a heap extra with premium. Our local Marina already charges a premium of 35c/litre over the max street price on ULP - another 14c/l on top, maybe time to sell the boat.

The boat is too big to trailer so we are reliant on Marina fule - who wants to put 200l at 20l a time from the local servo to top up.

No way do you want E10 anywhere near a boat.

Our 2000 Rangie has been run mainly on E10 for 3 or 4 years now with no problems, no performance drop (hard to tell in a 2.5 ton vehicle with a 4.6L V8) that we can tell and do difference in fuel consumption according to the trip computer (15l/100km average on both E10 and ULP). Our local E10 is 95 octane which may be helping.

Stevesub
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Follow Up By: outsider - Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 03:45

Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 03:45
I have the same problem, my near new 140hp 4banger Suzuki is not supposed to fed ethanol either. :-(
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Reply By: Tim Owen - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 19:39

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 19:39
I read (in part) the scientific report provided to the federal government on the introduction of ethenol blends a few years back - don't remember details, but the one fact I stored away was that E10 is approximately 4% less efficient - so on pure financial grounds it needs to be at least 4% cheaper to justify buying it - of course there are the environmental benefits to consider.
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Reply By: kend88 - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 19:47

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 19:47
My tow car is a Mitsubishi Challenger and everytime I have used a higher octane fuel there has been a small but noticeable improvement in power, and when I took the time to check it, fuel economy has been better, nearly the same percentage as the cost increase. Accordingly I am not too phased about having to use the more expensive fuel, particularly as it is supposed to run cleaner and be better for the engine.

KenD
Bris
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Reply By: Shaker - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 19:56

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 19:56
Boats owners need to be very worried, particularly those with vessels moored in marina pens.
Over a very short period ethanol separates from the petrol & sinks to the bottom of the tank, where conveniently the fuel pick up is.
Then when the engine is started it starts on pure ethanol, I will leave the rest to your imagination & that of your engine supplier, who has already stated that warranty claims will NOT be met if 'blend' fuels are used!



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Reply By: Wherehegon - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 21:54

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 21:54
I will never put that crap in wifes car again. Lost roughly 50/70k out of a tank and the thing is gutless when using it. Watch them wack the price of the premium up knowing we will have no ther choice. Typical of this government, bunch of wankers......Regards Steve
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Reply By: Ianw - Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 23:16

Friday, Feb 19, 2010 at 23:16
Why are we all bitching about the intro of alcohol based fuels ? When they (govt) mandated the use of low sulphur diesel all owners of old machines had to accept the cost of reconditioning the fuel pumps (seals) so as to be able to use the new lo-sulphur diesel. Petrol powered vehicles should be exempted from the cost of complying ?? Why ??

Ian
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Reply By: Member - Dunworkin (WA) - Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 00:35

Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 00:35
That is interesting, now call me a sceptic if you like but I do remember some years back when they took 'Leaded Petrol' off the market so as to close up the 'ozone layer' at that time it was going to fix the problem, so we all had to upgrade our vehicles because the older ones couldn't use unleaded petrol, (now that was a winfall for the vehicle manafacturers) however when driving Perth streets any day you will see old restored cars on the road, and as for weekends they are a dime a dozen, can someone please tell me what they are running on these days.

My personal opinion is that the old chestnuts of "ozone layer/ global warming" and now "climate change" is being used to the benefit of some big corporates, but hey, what would I know, I just sit here and read between the lines.

Cheers

D


Simba, our much missed baby.

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Follow Up By: Patrol22 - Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 07:54

Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 07:54
"If" they are still running the same engine they will be adding 'flashlube' or some other substance as a 'lead replacement'....this is either added directly to the fuel tank or with some sort of metering device.
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Follow Up By: Member Brian (Gold Coast) - Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 08:54

Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 08:54
"My personal opinion is that the old chestnuts of "ozone layer/ global warming" and now "climate change" is being used to the benefit of some big corporates, but hey, what would I know, I just sit here and read between the lines. "


Yep.... I agree with you on that mate!


Cheers

Brian

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Reply By: PradOz - Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 11:46

Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 11:46
Hate to break bad news but just yesterday while talking to the console operator about this at a Coles servo here on Gold Coast she showed me their information leaflet on their counter which lists which cars can run on E10 and which can run on V Power (their Premium).

Apart from the fact that it clearly lists cars that are not suitable for either fuel - it says:

V Power (premium) CONTAINS 5% Ethanol

Seems many havent read the fine print as no one else here has mentioned that. So what will everyone do now?

The only answer seems to be they may come up with some other additive that we will need to use. Wonder what pollution comes from making these additives? cheers....
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Reply By: Member - steve. B... (NSW) - Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 17:38

Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 17:38
Firstly thank you for your replies, thoughts and suggestions. I have found out since yesterday's posting, that I can use E.10. in the Xtrail. My understanding of the process of the production of E.10. has opened my eyes. What do we realy pay for when we fill up at the pump? What is the return for the raw product that is supplied to the processing plant. It seems to be a huge price to pay for such a small saving, only replacing 10% of the tank full. As I watch the V8's this afternoon, I realise that they are running on pure Ethanol. I also understand that Brazil uses 100% Ethanol in Cars. Then why are we only using 10% As I am in the process of replacing the Xtrail. What do I consider as a replacement?

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Follow Up By: Dave(NSW) - Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 23:29

Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 23:29
Steve,
Race cars have there motors rebuilt after a couple of races and cars in Brazil have motors built to take 100% Ethanol which is 100% alcohol. Most country's in Europe run 5% Ethanol.
Cheers Dave..
GU RULES!!

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Follow Up By: Glenndini - Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 at 20:15

Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 at 20:15
V8 Supercars run on E85. That's 85% ethanol.

What does it take to fill a V8 supercar?

Sugarcane contains about 3% molasses and from 1 litre of molasses you end up with about 250mls or one cup of ethanol. To fill a 120 litre tank you would need about 480 litres of molasses and that equates to about 16 tonnes of sugarcane.
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