Determined Area access problems

Submitted: Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 10:29
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By now most serious desert travellers are aware of the Martu Native Title Determined Area. This is the area that has caused a bit of a fuss over the last few years for those wanting to travel the very well known Canning Stock Route and visit other sites of interest such as Calvert Range. Currently for travelling the CSR between Well 15 & Well 40 a permit is required which is available over the internet for a fee. That’s good news for Canning travellers. However the news is not so good for those travelling the other famous desert roads, such as Len Beadell’s network and the “Oil Roads” within these Determined Areas.
In a nutshell a Native Title Determined Area is country given/handed back to the original occupants. Quite simply these Determined Areas are similar to freehold the same as your house, farm or business premises.
Again in a nutshell, there is a clause in the Determined Area fine print which allows travel on or through Public Access areas. For desert travellers that means the major roads, (but only those made public prior to 1993 I believe.) Faint tracks & seismic lines do not fall under this Public Access category. As an example, Len Beadell’s Callawa Track has been deregistered as a road. No longer is it public access.
News Flash;
If you wish to deviate off any of those major roads by more than say 50 metres then you will need a permit from the people responsible for that particular Determined Area.
This may be old news to some but please read the rest of this short article.

The easiest way to grasp what I’m getting at is to get a copy of the latest Hema Great Desert Tracks North West & South West maps, 5th edition. Open them up and have a good look at the Determined Areas represented on those two maps. (You may not be aware that the entire length of the Canning is now within Determined Areas and more than that as well). Now anywhere within those areas you will need a permit to leave the road if you wish to comply with the law.
Connie Beadell & I run a small tag-a-long business that of course specialises in the western deserts. This year to comply with the rules we applied for permission to visit Warri Site & Ngarinarri Claypan off the Eagle Highway. We were refused permission to go to either place. Another permit to visit Veevers Crater & Patience Well off the Gary Highway was also lodged. This resulted in a response asking us to “defer our trip” as the people responsible for that area have not yet formulated a policy for travellers wanting to visit these sites.
I am not trying to lay blame or put people offside. What I am trying to do is make folk aware that access to places of interest that have been visited by travellers for decades in these new Determined Areas is now illegal without permission, which appears to be pretty hard to obtain going through the correct channels.

Have a long hard think about this issue. If you have wanted to see these places you may have left your trip a little late.
Mick Hutton, Beadell Tours
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Reply By: Pete Mac - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 10:36

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 10:36
and this will lead to more people 'winging it' - i.e. not bothering with permits at all. Has anyone ever been pinged for not having a permit?
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Follow Up By: Mick Hutton - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 10:48

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 10:48
Apparently in the Determined Areas a prosecution has not been tested in court yet. With more Determined Areas popping up all of the time it will simply be a "matter of time" before it is tested.
The ramifications are huge as the Traditional Owners have the right to the use of their country to the exclusion of all others. Ultimately the Judge presiding over the Native Title Case sets these rules.
We thought folk should know what is actually going on when you try to do the right thing.

Mick Hutton
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Follow Up By: Pete Mac - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 11:01

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 11:01
Absolutely Mick - cheers for the heads up - I am sure everyone wants to do the 'right thing'. It's a shame that it is made to be so difficult/not at all...
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Follow Up By: Member - Joe F (WA) - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:35

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:35
G'day All

I regards to Mick Hutton's comments and concerns regarding Native title determination issues. Mick's comments are highlighting the most publicized issues ~ but only if you choose to look, or if it is an issue that is close to you.

Sadly most Australians today are apathetic to genuine issues out side of their personal comfort zone, Australia is being flogged off to the next highest bidder and most people outside of the general four wheel driving ~ travelling fraternity just do not know about it until you are locked out of what once was a place or feature you visited without restrictions.

There are huge tracts of land being closed off not only due to Native title claims but more so to mining expansion through out the inland Pilbara and Western Australia in general.

The premier of W.A stated in meeting with international business people that Western Australia is going to be the "Mining Capital of the World".

If you think it can't or won't happen think again!!

The Marrandoo Iron Ore project was excised from the former Hamersley Range National Park ~ you may know it as the Karijini National Park. The people who have taken on the walk up to the summit of Mount Bruce can testify to what I am on about in this regard.

Some of these areas are of significance to the traditional land owners but also early explorer and geological history.

It is an insidious process and once implemented it's irreversibly lost, not only to the "Native Title" holders but to everyone ~ absolutely everyone.

For the people who choose to "Wing it" and go into permit only regions, think again, you may well have your vehicle and equipment confiscated on simular grounds to illegal fishing.
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Follow Up By: Fab72 - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:59

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:59
I'm sitting on the fence with this issue. If you look at basic facts, there is more areas within Australia that have been designated as NO GO zones by white Australians than have been by Aboriginals. Just look at our cities. There's stadiums, buildings, car parks, residential houses, manufacturing plants etc, that without the correct permit, invitation or paying a fee, are strictly off limits.

White Australians put more claim to land within Australia than the Aboriginal people.

However, at other times when stories like this pop up and others like not allowing people to climb Ayers Rock, I can't help thinking that Captain Cook should have tried a bit harder.

I guess, it a nut shell, access to these traditional lands needs to be monitored and controlled in such a way to preserve them, however a blanket ban is not the answer.
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Follow Up By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 13:57

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 13:57
Hi Pete
You have hit the nail on the head, as Yes this is what is going to happen.


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Follow Up By: Rob! - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 17:17

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 17:17

Interesting point. For example Lang Park was once... well a park (and a cemetary), where kids could run around, guys could play a game of cricket or schools could play footy without restritions. Now it is an empty stadium for 99% of the time.
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Follow Up By: Fab72 - Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 09:43

Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 09:43
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Reply By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 13:54

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 13:54
Hi Mick
I have sent copies of this to a few a my friends. All I can say is so much for our free Australia and all Australian are equal. All it is going to do is make more people keep their trip plan private and not tell the outside world where they are going.

If it was a few weeks ago, I would have thought that it was a big April Fools Day Joke, because to me that is exactly what it is.

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Follow Up By: Fatso - Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 06:30

Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 06:30
Especially in Australia.
Not even the time of day.
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 09:28

Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 09:28
...Nor are we all equal. If we were then we would either all be living in abject poverty, or none of us would be. And that extends to young or old, black or white.

The divide is great these days across all sections of our community. And the term 'equal' in these discussions has usually been bastardised to suit the purpose, rather than a desire to see true equality for all Australians.

Well that's my rant ayway.... and no malice intended to anyone, just a general observation!

The Landy
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Reply By: Wilko - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 14:26

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 14:26
Hi Mick,

I hear what you are saying loud and clear. You say Callawa track has been deregistered How hard is it to be re-registed. Maybe if there is a way to register these areas as roads it would erase the issue, or am I oversimplifying.

One thing though. Who owns the area, how does it get passed on from generation to generation and could we get to the stage that seperate entity claim ownership of the same section?

Cheers Wilko
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Follow Up By: Mick Hutton - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 15:32

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 15:32
I'm just a lowly mechanic that dawdles around the desert these days so don't expect to much.
As I understand it at legislation level a good few years ago there were changes made to allow roads and tracks that had fallen out of use to be deregistered which then drops them from the public access list. I'm not sure what would need to be done to change that!

Yes there are several areas that have overlapping claims and they are being sorted out. No doubt it takes much longer.

Go and get the 5th edition Hema North West Sheet.

Mick Hutton
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Follow Up By: Wilko - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 18:15

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 18:15
Hi Mick,

I must be a Mechanics crawler cause I'm lower then that lol.

I will get the Hema map, Lets just hope the people in charge in Canberra have any idea what they are doing as it sounds as though they dont have.

Cheers Wilko
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Follow Up By: Olsen's 4WD Tours and Training - Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 06:13

Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 06:13
One way I've had roads reregistered is to continually write to councils and state governments informing them that you are using such roads on a regular basis, and that you intend to use the de-registered road in mention.
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Reply By: Kanga1 - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 15:03

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 15:03
Hi Mick, thanks for pointing this out. From my limited experience with remote communities and traditional owners, the people who actually live in the area for which we needed permits to travel in, and have personally have come into contact with, have not been bothered at all by us being there, and in some instances, have been really pleased to see us, ( assisting with vehicle breakdowns, giving a group of young fellows water, and notifying folks from their community of their dillema and whereabouts.) It seems to me, that some of the guys in suits that DO NOT live there, are most probably the people wishing to impose these heavier restrictions. I really hope that some common sense prevails before some of the Countrys bush history, icons, and natural beauty are sealed off by red tape or fences. Is there an association or group from the Australian public that may have some input regarding this issue? My wife and I would certainly like to join it.
It was nice to catch up with you and Connie at the service station in Laverton, September last year, our trip went well, and I hope you both had a good run on the AB highway. Cheers Mick. Best regards Kanga.
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Reply By: Mick O - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 16:00

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 16:00
Thanks Mick, it will be interesting to see how things unfold in the next couple of years. Like myself, I’m sure most people try and do the right thing with both permits and access through aboriginal lands. It is amazing the degree of confusion that exists even within the current permit system, particularly with who actually have the right to demand a look at your permit. I’ve only been asked once in 30 years of travel and that was by a CALM officer at the Calvert’s two years back. A nice bloke who prefaced his enquiry with the disclaimer that he knew he didn’t have the power to demand a look but would we mind anyway. I didn’t, nor did the others he had asked in the preceding days.

It would be interesting to know if the original furore around the alleged closure of the Canning after the initial proclamation of the Martu determination was factual or not. Was the Canning always intended to be general access road or was it re-opened due to the uproar? I see many of these iconic roads and tracks having significance to a wider section of the community than just the traditional owners and so hope that common sense will prevail.

I imagine this has greatly affected your business and proposed expeditions. Thanks again for the info.

''We knew from the experience of well-known travelers that the
trip would doubtless be attended with much hardship.''
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Follow Up By: Member - Willie , Sydney. - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 16:54

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 16:54
Yes, it would make running desert tours a nightmare.
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 23:46

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 23:46
P.S. Mick, what does this mean for the Rudall Wells? I see that some fall outside the Martu Determination. Does this affect your trips out that way?

''We knew from the experience of well-known travelers that the
trip would doubtless be attended with much hardship.''
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Reply By: Richard W (NSW) - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 17:01

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 17:01

Thanks for the heads up.
I have applied for various WA permits for travel this year.
The only one I haven't recieved is the one for the Calvert Ranges for which I recieved a reponse.

'Thank you for your request for a permit to visit the Calvert Range.

This culturally important and environmentally sensitive area lies within Martu native title determined land. The system for issuing permits to visit the Calvert Range is presently under review by Western Desert Lands Aboriginal Corporation (WDLAC), on behalf of the Traditional Owners. It is hoped that this review will be completed by the end of March, 2010 and we will then be able to respond to your request for a permit.

We appreciate your patience.'

AnswerID: 413033

Follow Up By: Member - John Baas (WA) - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 17:09

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 17:09
I got the same message except the review date has been pushed back to end Apr 2010.

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Follow Up By: Member - George (WA) - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 17:48

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 17:48
It seems that it is already no longer possible to travel from WA to Qld through the centre without a or several permits. I guess the only way in the future will be to follow the black top. Perhaps at election times, are there enough 4x4 drivers to cast a vote on the issue. Pollies usually take notice if there job is on the line. Just my view
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Reply By: Olsen's 4WD Tours and Training - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 17:33

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 17:33
G'day Mick

Yes it may be old news but well put. The Warri site is one that should be of great interest to everyone and should be a public access area in my view because of the fantastic tale associated with it.

I am sure the issue will eventually be resolved as access to the Calverts was. You have done the right thing bringing people's attention to it, and I encourage everyopne to write to the respective govt departments and representatives to keep access on the agenda

AnswerID: 413037

Follow Up By: Alan G. McCall - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 21:32

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 21:32
Hi David

As an avid desert traveler the difficulty Mick has faced obtaining permits is of concern.

However, I am not sure that lobbying government is the best way to counter this potential impass.

The Native Title Act is a lawyers dream come true. As of now the lawyers, on behalf of interpretation of the law, have only been contracted by clients who are aligned to those representatives of the original inhabitants of the arid regions.

To be truly proactive in keeping or repossessing access to these arid lands is to use the existing legislation via the use of lawyers to interpret a favorable outcome for the bona fide desert traveler.

The first precedent set will give an indication as to what kind of direction the legislation will head. The bona fide traveler should be ready, with lawyers in hand, when this event occurs.


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Follow Up By: Mick O - Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 23:10

Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 at 23:10
Bloody lawyers! They'll have their snout in the trough quicker than flies to......!
''We knew from the experience of well-known travelers that the
trip would doubtless be attended with much hardship.''
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Follow Up By: Olsen's 4WD Tours and Training - Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 06:10

Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 06:10

It does not need to be so complicated. I've had access issues solved by consulting other "representatives" including the Native Title holders. As for the other comments, my sister is a Native Title lawyer who works very hard to bring good outcomes for all. Her snout has never been in any trough.

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Reply By: Mick Hutton - Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 08:03

Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 08:03
Back again,
Someone suggested using a de-registered track to get it re-registered and writing to all and sundry telling them what you are doing, unfortunately with Determined Areas that would leave youself wide open for a trespass test case. Not quite the done thing for a commercial operator in our case.

The only way around the problem of dealing with Councils and Corporate Bodies is to see the Traditional Owners in person and ask the question directly to the people who own the country. We already do this in many areas. This approach however is not feasible for everyone, if your from over east then you'll have to travel into the Pilbara, far north west and Goldfields to get permission then head east into the desert. Logistically making a trip much bigger and much longer.
The reason we have been going through the "front door" in these Determined Areas is to keep testing the water so to speak. For some years now the water has remained icy cold.

If you wish to make yourself heard get onto the National 4WD Council. These folk are meant to be representing 4WD travellers and to my mind they haven't been doing much of a job. For instance tourism never seems to be listed among the stakeholders in Determined Areas, that is a list of organisations or people with an interest in the country under that Native Title Claim.
Get onto your state 4WD Council and get them to give National a bit of a rev.
You will be aware that the 4WD Council are handling the Canning Permits for the Martu country. As I mentioned, that's fine for Canning folk, what about everyone else? Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, but I'm telling it as I see it.

Someone else asked if it is effecting our business, quite simply the answer is yes. For our long distance expedition work following explorer routes and the like, well you can guess that it has become almost impossible in Determined Areas at the moment.
On a brighter note in other areas we have great success with access and enjoy quite a number of priveliges other groups do not.

We will keep submitting permit applications and hope things settle down in the future.

By the way did you people realise that on the Connie Sue Highway you need a permit to visit Hanns Tabletop Hill and any other feature more than 50m off the road?

Mick Hutton
AnswerID: 413113

Follow Up By: The Landy - Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 09:46

Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 09:46
Hi Mick

I’m not sure that the National 4WD Council should become an advocate for the interest of Commercial 4WD tourism operations, and whilst you didn’t say that it should be it appeared implied in your comments.

I appreciate the role that outback tourism and operations like yours play in this arena, but I also wonder to what extent many of us ‘roamers’ have been locked out of certain areas (and I generalise here) because operator’s like yourself benefit financially from the access and land-owners, whether indigenous, or otherwise, what a piece of the action. The easiest way to achieve this is to restrict access (to all) and put your hand-out.

But let me be clear, I have no objection to 4WD tourism, but there is possibly a downside to others because of the financial benefits operators receive. I also recognise the right of land-owners to restrict access as they see sit and for their reasons.

The Landy
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Follow Up By: Olsen's 4WD Tours and Training - Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 19:12

Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 19:12

I said to tell people you intend to use the tracks, that is a bit different to actually using them :-)

quote "National 4WD Council. These folk are meant to be representing 4WD travellers and to my mind they haven't been doing much of a job" unquote.

I could not agree more.

Now if Connie Sue can't get her own Dad's work recognised as an important part of our nation's heritage then we all have something to be ashamed of. Time we all banded together with or without the representatives that seem to be doing little.

Mick, you have my support in whatever action/s you need support with- message me any time.

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Reply By: Mick Hutton - Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 10:22

Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 10:22
The Landy,
"Financial gain" now there is a concept. I wish it applied our our operation.
In the western deserts commercial operators are lumped in with your "roamers". I might add that most of the trouble generated in the western deserts deep within this issue over many years stems from"roamers".

Folk wanted to know who to voice their concerns to, who else but the body representing 4WD recreation? Permit rejections from the Determined Areas are not limited to commercial operations. If the 4WD Council didn't want to be involved with this issue then why did they take on the Canning Permit system.

The article is to make people aware of how far reaching these "new" Native Title decisions are. Commercial or private the rules are no different.
If the Traditional Owners wish to stop people visiting their country then how are they to generate income for themselves in the long term as economic viability is the highest priority if you start reading all of the documents about this issue in the first place. Mining is the only other alternative, take your pick.

Mick Hutton
AnswerID: 413130

Follow Up By: Member - Joe F (WA) - Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 13:30

Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 13:30
G'day Mick

You have raised a very important talking piont and obviously from the varied responses we all have differing opinoins.

I don't get "The Landy" regarding his comment on being locked out and that a tour operator gets exclusive use of an area.

Maybe a tour operator can strike a business deal with a land owner for shearers quarters accommodation if the operator can supplement the land owners income on a very regular basis, but I don't believe it would be exclusive use at the exclusion of all others.

Your point on problems in the Western Deserts and throughout the inland Pilbara region does actually stem mainly from the belligerent "roamer" who chooses not to comply or comform to rules or regulations, be that obtaining or applying for permits or paying posted camping fees etc

I would be interested to know if any "roamer" actually obtains a permit to travel a mining companies rail access road net work, just to get to a place of interest ?

The mining sector ~ this is all of the miners big and small ~ are bending over backwards to win favour with the traditional land owners, so they can access land and mineral reserves ~ it is a very easy way to earn an income for the next 50 or so years, just sit back and watch the royalties come rolling in, as their land and heritage rolls out.

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Follow Up By: The Landy - Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 14:40

Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 14:40
Firstly, let me reiterate that I have no issue with Commercial 4WD tour operators......

My point is that as more and more Commercial operators appear and guide people to some of the places mentioned here, and others that aren’t, it does a number of things. It taxes the local resources and facilities due to the sheer volume of visitors generated, and given tour operators are being paid for their services, it almost always follows that everyone wants a cut of the fee. The easiest way to achieve this is to close areas off to all but those willing to pay. And before you know it there will be a dozen posts on ExplorOz complaining about that.

I’ve said nothing about exclusive use of areas, but that is a real possibility in the future....

But let me say, I understand the thrust of Mick’s post, and appreciate the concerns he has for all of us who travel Australia, and I am thankful for the awareness he has raised. However, I think it is equally important to recognise that the interests of Commercial 4WD tour operators are not always aligned to other members of the 4WD community. And that is an objective judgement I make, and not intended as a personal reproach to any particular Commercial 4WD operator.

Good weekend to all........The Landy
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Follow Up By: Olsen's 4WD Tours and Training - Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 19:17

Friday, Apr 16, 2010 at 19:17
G'day The Landy

While I don't agree entirely that our interests are misaligned, I do take your point.
Unfortunately it is also true that in these remote areas, where no other potential for income exists, commercial operators can sometime have some "pull" when they point out to authorities that their commercial interests are being harmed, and most operators I know of are happy to have Ma and Pa travellers on the routes as well- though some recent altercations with idiots on some tracks have made me reconsider- but I digress :-).

I think Mick would agree, being a commercial 4wd tag-along tour operator is a sure way to stay poor so anyone wanting a cut of the fee is probably doing to get an invoice not a cheque :-)


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Reply By: Bob of KAOS - Saturday, Apr 17, 2010 at 23:00

Saturday, Apr 17, 2010 at 23:00
My recent trip along the Anne Beadel, Mount Davies Rd, and across country to Yulara involved 5 different permits.

Despite having a permit I was accosted by an official looking bloke in Watarru who demanded to know who I was, what I was doing, and called a tourist in a derogatory way. Meanwhile, the APY lands are being exploited by fundamentalist missionaries, store operators, and mining companies. Not to mention the spinifex pixies (anthroplogists and lawyers) working for the various Land Councils who just want to keep people like us out.

The analogy with freehold land is always drawn. Yes a lot of Australia is freehold land- but you can drive along the roads outside the boundaries. Vast tracts of inland Australia are now aboriginal freehold land- effectively keeping people like me from seeing much of my own country.

It is more like a country within a country, but a country unlike most others. I can visit almost any country in the world provided I have a tourist visa. Why can't I visit the vast inland country within Australia?

And to make it even more ridiculous, this 'country' is completely dependant on my taxes for its infrastructure and the incomes of its citizens.

I respect aboriginal peoples rights. But I see the permit system being exploited by the few, and worse, it shields from public scrutiny some of the horrors that occur in these remote places.
AnswerID: 413338

Follow Up By: Bob of KAOS - Saturday, Apr 17, 2010 at 23:01

Saturday, Apr 17, 2010 at 23:01
Should have been spinifex fairies , but you get my drift.
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