How Can we Increase the responsibility Level ?

Hi Landy

Fortunately I haven't come across those that have been deliberately destructive by intent , most of the time its been because of an obstackle and an excessivily wrong approach has been used sometimes combined with showing off.

About 3 hours after leaving the track in the picture above I was at scene of a teenager in mum's RAV4 (no not ours) who had been going to fast in bush and just killed a Wombat.

Now I wasn't to happy about this and was thinking about what to do, when the nervous teenager reversed into a tree putting a dent in the cars back door.

So actually I did nothing as it was now obvious that behaviour has consequences and in particular that there was no one for the person to blame but themselves.

Was a lesson learned ?

If the "mudholes" that you like to "play in" are in the middle of a track, isn't that deliberate track damage?

Another constructive comment Shaker, Good Stuff.

Yes, & I am probably more qualified to make it than you would be, I live right on the edge of the Victorian High Country & I am sick & tired of bogans with massive tyres making the tracks impassable ... OK!

Obviously you are passionate about this Shaker, so can I ask what are your thoughts on how to educate people so all can enjoy our favorite tracks? Are you like Robin and being proactive about this and similar issues.And if you are thats most excellent. Unfortunatley this isn't a problem that is unique to The Victorian High Country. We have our fair share of idiots on the North coast of NSW as well, just as many other areas around the country do.
So I guess we are all qualified to make comment.

You are quite correct, I am passionate about it as it is virtually my backyard & the constant abuse of the tracks will end in more & more closures.
People forget that most of the tracks are for emergency vehicle access & if the tracks are made impassable by recreational users, they will be closed.

Unfortunately, I think that a large percentage of the offenders are way beyond being able to be "educated", they live in a world of delusion, genuinely believing that vehicles with standard size wheels & tyres dig trenches in the mud holes so deep that even sitting on the cross member there would still be a good 100mm between the tyre & the road!
I have almost given up any idea of being pro-active as when we have 'spoken' to people about it, the response is generally just a mouthful of abuse.

But we should never give up the good fight, To do that is to say " you've Won"
And I hate losing

The mouthful of abuse is just another trait of the "Me Generation" that I spoke about earlier and I've learnt to live will it.
They don't realize that track closers WILL happen and continue to happen through their behavior and they will be the first to whinge & moan about not having any where to run.
The more people that can be taught to appreciate our wonderful land the more of a minority they become.
Your dead right, some are beyond education, but please never ever give up.

Happy trails,

Public Hangings might be going a little far Hairs, unless perhaps if they were
Toyota drivers and Collingwood supporters as well.

I have in mind, not the small group of idiots you are never going to educate but rather, how to influence the larger basically disinterested group that don't really care much either way.

With our own track re-building work in which we have involved a few people I
have noticed that some consideration is given before mono-ing over a soft fresh culvert when you have dug it out yourself.

So I tend to think that things that give ownership really do work - and I believe we could make progress if we could get our local officals to encourage 3rd party efforts.
(As opposed to the double brick O.H.S. wall I found when trying to help after Black saturday).

I'd never support Collingwood, choke, spit splutter. A true Blood Supporter here mate.
And yes I am a Proud Toyota owner

I do agree with when you 'give ownership' it changes their perspective greatly how they treat things and with that they change without knowing it.
As you know, you try at every opportunity to encourage people to join you on your outings and then they can see first hand what it's about.
Even bringing the subject up here will make people think about it.
Cheers.

I am a Collingwood member of many years and I drive a Toyota. Back in the good old days( as a Collingwood supporter) if anyone did anything to annoy us we would steal their hub caps. Unfortunately there aren't too many 4WDs with hub caps these days :)

regards,
Bob

Go Pies !!

Woops !! I picked a bad combination there - I think I will go out and check that my hub caps are still there.

G'day Robin, with tongue firmly in cheek, don't worry about the hub caps, check if the car is still there. Oops sorry forgot, you have a Nissan so they probably won't bother. LOLOL But then I think you said that you also have a Rav4. Better go park it in the lounge room just in case.

Too late !

Gee Moose , H'mm I see a problem here as I have found myself on closed tracks before.

I would agree with you about the tougher penalties but only if some level of actual harm or intended harm was proven.

I guess I have been against things like automatic fines for small breaches of things like speed limits for a while as I see some of these things as counterproductive and I think we need to bend over backwards to get people onboard.

But I agree that education isn't enough it needs to be coupled with some kind of incentive - who knows maybe extended access for those passing a" Driving Sustainably course".

I don't think any of us will be raking in those millions unfortunately Nargun.

However I see that we have more common ground than in past posts.

Education as you suggest is a great start , but unless followed up by something that makes it stick like your involvement or somehow increasing the ownership level then education becomes lost.

To this end moves to close things or make it harder just aggravate the problem.

I look back here at how our government department wrecked a pretty mountain peak called Mt Seperation where we could drive a bunch of families to and picnic only 2 years ago and the seeds of appreciation of the bush could be sown.

I wonder how that time was filled in this year ?

The big problem is that for a few generations now we have been raising kids without any, or not enough discipline and respect for others.
They are given no limits, never suffer "defeat" or heaven forbid "failing" so grow up expecting society to allow them to do whatever they like and worse still expecting society to "provide" for them.
My last job before retirement was a school bus driver so I know exactly what goes on. Once I stopped the bus and threatened a kid with being dropped off at that exact spot and was admonished by the teacher on board who had sat silently through the kids behaviour and my repeated request over the PA for him to sit down and behave.
So I then put her straight on what was going to happen to them both if the kid didn't behave.
Nearly caused a riot at the school, parents complaining about MY behaviour etc etc.

Peter I know where you are coming from. I have been training to be a teacher aide. If they think you are a mum helping some wont listen to instructions. I have been told "your not a teacher im not listening to you" They have no respect for adults or anything else these are 6, 7 and 8 year olds. It worries me where as a society what's going to happen when these small children grow up.

Sharon

These kids today have no respect, disipline, etc. Makes you think what the kids of these kids are going to be like.

I reckon you would wack'em pretty hard to Old Girl , but I'm more into the consequenses line of thinking and its much better if they discover that for themselves like the guy I reffered to in a reply to landy above.

By denting the car and having no-one to shift the blame to made the message more relevant at the time - but I will await the next event to see if the message sticks!

There are signs in the High Country stating that "hoon laws" apply & vehicles will be confiscated.

Hi Craig

I guess I have been behind the scenes and seen how attacks on young people under the banner of "Hoon Laws" etc has lead to it becoming something to aim for and get around with your net worth in some areas increasing as you "get away with it".
So I never go for things that create fences between people.

I like your idea of not closing everthing at the first sign of a rut , and hence providing more options and spreading the load.
The overall net movement has been more people , more vehicles and less places to go and obviously this creates pressure.

Over the weekend I was surprized how hard the association argued for the keeping of Abbots Link track - so some certainly are in their fighting.

It might not be such a "badge of honour", if the first confiscation was 30 days instead of 48hrs.

Hi Shaker

I have no doubt that at some level of enforcement that you could have an effect but humans are very clever animals and some form of unintended consequence usually occurs.
It can be as big as the Americans winning the Iraq war with almost no casualties then getting bogged down in a mess for years, a mess that no-one would predict.

Or as small as some disaffected person who couldn't care and carried fruit fly to another state.

Wars usually create 2 losers and I am certainly convinced that engagement, warts and all, is better than creating fences of any sort.

A few years ago I was studying to become a primary school teacher. While giving a lesson one day I noticed a young student vandalising his desk with a metal ruler. I asked him to put it away. Less than a minute later it was back out, so I threatened to confiscate the ruler till the end of lesson if it came out again. Guess what? It came out again, so following through with my threat, I confiscated the ruler and put it on the teachers desk. The teacher immediately gave it back to the student.
Told me later that we (teachers) were not allowed to confiscate items as we can get charged with theft.

If a young student can get away with things in front of people, what are they going to do when no body is watching.

I'm now a DoCS foster carer. You should see the guidelines that set out what rights the child has, that we need to instruct children on. The main one I hate is the one that says (for the child) "you have the rights to make your own desicions"

Hi Pop / SDG

You guys paint a bad picture - I could imagine how destruct to oneself it could be to not be able to confiscate a ruler off someone engaged in the act of vandalism, you would really have to ask yourself "why bother with this career".

Actually I have a question (and I have no answer)- The above represents real change in our society but does it all represent a real backward step -I.E. are there some good things that come out of this.

I guess I am thinking of some of the endless stories of abuse we hear about and wether these things will reduce in a more open less authoritarian society.

Robin, we agree again.

This has got to stop happening or people will talk.

Australia, arguably, is one of the best places on Earth to live. This is due largely to a firmly entrenched legal system based on Common law and the application of the Rules of Natural Justice. The application of laws and sentences is generally not arbitrary and applies reasonably equitably to everybody. I know this does not in every case but it supports a fair, open and equitable society (especially when compared to many countries…ever had to bribe someone to get something simple done or paid money for a fine which has gone straight into a cop’s back pocket?)

So the country is going to rack and ruin…the X and Y generations were parented by us baby boomers. My long hair, beard and jeans and slouch at the time drew the same responses from the Depression parents. Don’t blame the young, blame their parents (Let he who is without sin cast the first stone).

As for teachers hitting children... by any definition this is assault (physical harm imposed without application of the rules of natural justice or Common Law), and what is worse it is assault by a powerful adult against a smaller less powerful child who does not have the maturity to form any concept of intent or the life experience to understand the repercussion of their actions.

A teacher hitting a child because they do not have the maturity or human relationship skills to control their frustrations? They shouldn’t be in a position of this responsibility

This is similar to a cop punching you in the mouth because you have got pinged exceeding the speed limit for the 2nd time in 3 years. Or are children exempt from protection under the legal system?

G'day Robin
I like your preference for the gentler angels of persuasion. Somewhat curiously, it's the baby boomers who were first known as the 'Me Generation' during the sixties and seventies. A few thoughts in passing from one of them.

Personally I don't how whacking kids teaches them respect - fear, violence as a solution surely, but respect? I doubt it.

OTOH do I think that selfish, inconsiderate behaviour has become more commonplace? Without question and it's by no means confined to the young. Our society valorises the individual in pursuit of wealth, celebrity and consumption. Our sense of collective responsibility as members of a society is diminished. Never mind the tracks, try some city driving for evidence of the trend.

I've been around long enough to share with others here the lament of quieter times past when there were a lot fewer people around with a lot less 4WDs. More people and vehicles means, quite simply, more pressure which will take its toll on resources and on our experience of them - tracks and camping sites included - even without a yahoo invasion.

Another development not so far mentioned has been the urbanisation of our society. People simply don't have the common knowledge of being in the bush and the common sense that goes with it. (BTW I also remember when the bushies thought nothing of leaving litter all over the joint. )

As I read your opening post what came to mind was the wholesale shift in attitudes to handling and killing fish. (And note also to littering) When I started fishing as a small boy it was common practice to pave the bottom of the boat with suffocating fish. It was all about the meat. Catch and release has become the norm and why, because it's a way of respecting and sharing the resource, a resource that has been badly affected by pressure. How did this happen? The steady infiltration of the media presentation of fishing, public advocacy and demonstration by fishing celebs, legislation, education and all the rest.

Peer pressure and role models are probably a lot more influential and transformative of behaviour than punitive fines and beatings.

If you traced the emergence and spread of the catch and release ethic it might provide interesting info for you. I'd be fairly confident it started with a mixture of growing sensibility inspired by diminishing quality of experience. It takes some leaders like you to quietly and persistently spread the word, do as much showing as telling and raise awareness to the point where celebs et al decide to get on board. I dip my lid to your effort and wish you all the best.

Meantime I will continue to avoid camping grounds wherever possible and especially at holiday times when the d*** head hatch is most intense.

Cheers
Mark
ps Confiscating a ruler isn't theft - to say it does shows ignorance of the law

Hullo Robin
Much has been written in this thread about what is a vexing problem. One perpetrated by a minority but potentially impacting negatively on us all.
Research undertaken in the early 70s established that about 70% of road incidents involved about 8% of the driving population; and that this 8% had a strong correlation with those in our society that had criminal, or at the very least, antisocial tendencies – DV, public drunkenness, graffiti, petty crime, violence in public places, etc. Not surprisingly, these people behave in the same way on our roads and public spaces – a general disregard for rules, road rage, high risk taking behaviour including excessive speed, inappropriate passing, tailgating, cutting people off, not giving way, etc. This group of people are not socialised properly and very often it can be directly traced to their upbringing by their parents. I heard someone say the other day that the current generation of kids are the children of parents who wanted children but who did not want to be parents - a generalisation of course, but I am sure we can all think of many examples.
At the “soft” end of the (same) spectrum is the inappropriate and selfish use of generators – another vexing issue for many on this forum. We have just returned from a fortnight in the Vic High Country, which by and large was very enjoyable. However, it was at times marred by trail bikes in (NP) campsites and the use of generators until 10PM. One wonders whether one really needs a wide screen with video plus music in the bush. Have we lost the capability to entertain ourselves with quiet (albeit animated at times) conversation around a fire, listening to the sounds of the bush?
So how can we hope to change such behaviour? One solution involves helping people who demonstrate from an early stage that they are struggling with the task of parenting – this is often clear at the prenatal stage, or at the very least, when the child is less than 1 y.o. However, that is necessarily long term as it will take one or maybe two generations.
My suggestion would be to use “policing” and subsequent involvement through community service orders. Those caught destroying tracks, cutting down trees, using generators after 7PM, etc could be issued with a community service order that involved repairing those same tracks, planting trees, cleaning up campsites, repairing signage, etc. This approach has been shown to work for most (but not all) of those who disregard the negative consequences on others of their actions.
Regards
Andrew

Hi Andrew,
As much as I agree with you and feel the same way about these issues, I can't see policing working.
These reason I say this is because,
1; Police and others that have the power to issue fines & infringement notices are stretched of resources as it is, and this element know this. They play the numbers game.
2; When infringement notices are issued they either don't pay the fine or take it to the courts where more money and resources are used for the majority of the time NO outcome or a reduced penalty. The end result, they have learnt nothing and don't care to either.
As sad as it is true, this is the reality of of what happens.
Unless of cause the courts grow some and start making an example of some of these clowns.
I believe that what Robin is trying to do through 'Ownership' plays a big part in trying to make a difference.
Anyway, we battle on.
Four days off, look out Cangi,

Have a good one.

There are a few well thought out reponses above here , but some would certainly take a long time to implement , but nevertheless I think any change likely to suceed requires a response that considers long short and medium term effects.

It probably would not surprise anyone that a small group consistently cause a large amount of the problems.

P.S. Fixed rules though like banning generators after 7pm could catch many good people out Andrew.
We might be better to push the line of quieter approved generators and allow them to be used for longer till most get meals out of the way if we are to encourage max compliance.

Hullo Hairs(?) and Robin

A couple of points of clarification/elaboration.

"Policing" was deliberately put in parenthesis. That is, a means of letting people know that their behaviour was not acceptable, that there are consequences and choices - eg, a range of penalties OR they could participate in some form of community service that would, hopefully, lead to a sense of ownership of some track, campsite, or whatever. There are many areas in govt where public servants are empowered to issue infringement notices - fisheries and traffic inspectors being but two: "policing" in this sense is not confined to police.

Robin, I am not suggesting fixed time rules about the use of generators. I personally go bush to get away from much of the extraneous paraphernalia we seem to accumulate and think we need as essential to have a good time. What I am saying is that it would be good if those people who "need" generators to power their paraphernalia thought about their impact on others and were more thoughtful. Eg, I have never had anyone approach me to ask if it would be OK to run their genny after a certain time - they just start it up, be it at 6.30 AM or until 10+ PM. It may be that we will get to a stage where, like "smoke free or mobile free" areas, those who use generators could be assigned to one section of a campsite separated by a noise mound from those of us who prefer to experience the quietness of the bush. In these areas they could run their generators to their hearts content ;-)

Regards
A