NEW Product for elecrtical safety

Submitted: Friday, Jun 04, 2010 at 20:41
ThreadID: 79072 Views:9759 Replies:4 FollowUps:16
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HI All
The below post by permission of Krusty of C& H forum:

""For those interested in “the next step” in electrical safety, there is about to be launched into the market a replacement for those Clipsal orange box extension outlets; these are the ones specifically disallowed under the present regs for RV’s.

The little cheap white power boards (supercheap, reject shop, bunnings etc) always have been suggested as poor substitutes for real wiring and they never have been suitable for the RV (especially camping) market. The Clipsal product is marketed as suitable for the construction industry (building sites) but it is not suitable in camp sites (van/motor home/tent).

A multi-outlet power board has been legally required (multi buildings on a single site) for some time but accessing them has been a problem as they need to be individually made up.

There has also been a problem with plugging a 15 amps caravan into the normal 10 amps domestic gpo (we are all aware of the cheater plugs).

The new unit is to be marketed as a “power board” with combined RCD & RVD functions, where the resistance to earth is less than 1 kilo Ohm the RCD has been tested to function with the present 30milliamps limit. When the resistance to earth is over 2 kilo Ohms the RVD has been tested to function with a lower limit.

The human body has a nominal resistance @ 1.5 kilo Ohms and at this range (per reports) either the RCD or RVD will function giving a double protection. I have not seen the circuit but the device is about to be certified.

I have suggested to the manufacturers that a version be made with a 10amps plug suitable for plugging into a domestic house with a 15 amps output that will accept a standard caravan lead. They are likely to also make the 10 to 10 version and the 15 to 15 version. The suggested price is around $200 (twice the price of a Clipsal but double the protection & legal); it is also less than the “amp fibian” 10 to 15 amps convertor.

The advantage with the device is that when at home you will be ‘legally covered’ for plugging your van into your home powerpoint. When ‘on the road’ by plugging the device into either your invertor or generator multiple ‘class one’ devices may be driven off of it concurrently.

Present advice is 1 ‘class one’ device per outlet and the caravan itself is a class one device and should therefore NOT supply any other ‘building’ within the same site. (As is done at caravan shows).)."""

For more info on these products contact via this link

http://www.protectelec.com.au/display/assets/download.php?id=15&window=1


I nor Krusty have no connection or finincial interest in the company but see these products as a great step forward in the safe use of portable gennys & inverters

Peter



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Reply By: Marny - Friday, Jun 04, 2010 at 23:05

Friday, Jun 04, 2010 at 23:05
would'nt touch one if my electrical contractors lisence depended on it, but each to their own.
AnswerID: 419594

Follow Up By: Lex M (Brisbane) - Friday, Jun 04, 2010 at 23:19

Friday, Jun 04, 2010 at 23:19
Please explain why.
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Follow Up By: Marny - Friday, Jun 04, 2010 at 23:34

Friday, Jun 04, 2010 at 23:34
I am still having trouble seeing how this works by your discription. Does it work like a vrd on a welder whereby the resistance to earth is constantly monitored and the voltage cannot be applied unless the resistance to earth is less than 200 ohms? otherwise the resistances you state to earth are very high nowhere near as3000 values but really how much more protection than a 30ma 30ms breaker do you really need? With most RCDs you would be flat out knowing you have been hit.
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Follow Up By: brett - Friday, Jun 04, 2010 at 23:37

Friday, Jun 04, 2010 at 23:37
Unless I missed something how does this thing supply 15A out of a 10A house socket. If you put a 15A socket on something the source must be able to supply 15A.
The link also takes you to something dated 2007, whats happened with this in the last 3 years
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FollowupID: 689778

Follow Up By: Marny - Friday, Jun 04, 2010 at 23:46

Friday, Jun 04, 2010 at 23:46
quite simple the device cannot supply 15 amp from a 10 amp socket. There is no way known. (without voltage changes)
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Follow Up By: Star Bug - Friday, Jun 04, 2010 at 23:57

Friday, Jun 04, 2010 at 23:57
Skeptical as well here. 5ma trip??? I see a lot of nuisence tripping here.

And a lot of the figures banndied around just dont add up.

Allowing you to plug a 15 amp load into a 10 amp GPO???? I'll await the authorities judgement on that one!
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew (QLD) - Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 09:02

Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 09:02
Common guys, let's not tar and feather every product before you actually see it.

I can't believe electrically minded people cannot work out that this device would probably incorporate a 10A CB into its design to allow for a 15A socket....nothing surprising if that is the case.

Andrew
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Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 11:49

Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 11:49
Hi All

"Marny posted:
I am still having trouble seeing how this works by your discription. Does it work like a vrd on a welder whereby the resistance to earth is constantly monitored and the voltage cannot be applied unless the resistance to earth is less than 200 ohms? otherwise the resistances you state to earth are very high nowhere near as3000 values but really how much more protection than a 30ma 30ms breaker do you really need? With most RCDs you would be flat out knowing you have been hit. "

The original unit {RVD} allows a portable generator to be used without the need for a EN link
It monitors the lines to the earth wiring in the van etc & if that voltages rises above about 40v it trips
The current required to trip is only 5mAs
Not the 30+ of the standard RCd
Because it does not need a EN link, the standard fully isolated genny can be plugged into jhe power inlet of a van etc & gives protection against shock to earth whereas the VAN RCD is inoperative under those circumstances.
Peter
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Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 11:54

Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 11:54
Hi
"brett posted:
Unless I missed something how does this thing supply 15A out of a 10A house socket. If you put a 15A socket on something the source must be able to supply 15A.
The link also takes you to something dated 2007, whats happened with this in the last 3 years"


It does not supply 15amps out of a 10 amp outlet
.
It limits the current by an olcb to the 10 amps that can be safely drawn from a 10 amp outlet to 10amps ,same as the Ampfibian 10to 15 amp adapters

It has been further developed & has approval under the relevant AUS standards.
Peter
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Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 11:57

Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 11:57
Hi
""Marny posted:
quite simple the device cannot supply 15 amp from a 10 amp socket. There is no way known. (without voltage changes""'

???????????voltage changes will encrease amps from a 10a socket,HOW ??????
Peter
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FollowupID: 689822

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 12:02

Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 12:02
"Star Bug posted:
Skeptical as well here. 5ma trip??? I see a lot of nuisence tripping here.

And a lot of the figures banndied around just dont add up.

Allowing you to plug a 15 amp load into a 10 amp GPO???? I'll await the authorities judgement on that one"""

Hi
It does not allow you to plug a 15amp LOAD into a 10 amp outlet .
What it does allow you to do [the same as the "Ampfibian"] Is to legally have a 10amp to 15amp adapter.
As is required under the rules!!!!
Peter


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Follow Up By: brett - Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 13:55

Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 13:55
Wasn't aware it was allowed to have a 15A socket that is only capable of providing 10A. But after reading the Ampfibian stuff it appears this is ok.
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Follow Up By: Marny - Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 22:49

Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 22:49
oltrack123, mate it is how transformers work bud. you dont get something for nothing, unless while i have been asleelp they have figured out perpetuatial motion
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Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Sunday, Jun 06, 2010 at 11:01

Sunday, Jun 06, 2010 at 11:01
Hi Marny

Sorry , still cannot see your point as to how transformers can increase a 10 amp outlet rating to 15 amp rating ,IF that is what you mean.
Power into a transformer equals power out [minus some small loss]
Yes a step down transformer will have a higher secondary current than the primary & the opposite for a step up transformer

But a 10amp outlet is always a 10amp outlet no matter what voltage it is supplied with.!!!

Peter
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FollowupID: 689944

Follow Up By: Marny - Sunday, Jun 06, 2010 at 18:17

Sunday, Jun 06, 2010 at 18:17
Yeah pete thats pretty much what i am trying to say
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Reply By: Member - Rod N (QLD) - Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 08:57

Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 08:57
The Amp-Fibian is another one that has been around for awhile. According to their website it cuts out at 10 amps to stop overloading the 10 amp outlet. I do not have one so do not know if this is true or not.
AnswerID: 419608

Reply By: Maîneÿ . . .- Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 09:42

Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 09:42
The following is the *main* spiel of the nominated Protex website:

“” Protex RVD is setting new standards for on-site SAFETY and PRODUCTIVITY for one of the Hunter’s leading coal mines.
After trialing the Protex RVD for one month at BHP Billiton’s Mt Arthur Coal the considerable COST SAVINGS in terms of increased efficiency and reduction of lost time incidents were evident.
The Protex RVD has been used on two mobile generators and has dramatically REDUCED the SET-UP TIME whenever they are relocated.””

There is plenty of information about *saving money* and *saving time* in their headline information, which is all good in the commercial field of mining etc where the device has to be relocated often and quickly.

Down in the basic body of the ‘add’ it mentions the technical specs, that I understand are also the basic specs for many other much less expensive (to buy) brands, that consequently all pass the Australian standards for safety and also performance.
These Protex devices may be perfect for their designed use, but I fail to see it becoming popular with a camper who does not have to relocate the device from one generator to another on a constant basis.


Where used, as I believe campers would, the device is installed on their generator, the generator has to be capable of running 2 or more loads simultaneously, which I believe most will.


The existing device used by campers (power-board) to run 2 or more loads simultaneously is presently situated with-in the caravan or in the tent, allowing for just one extension cable to run to the caravan or the tent from the generator.
The 240v is then distributed to the various devices being run.
By using this Protex device and having 2 or 3 or more extension cables running from the generator to each and every individual 240v device being used in the caravan or tent, would just negate the requirement of the device, simply because you would still need the existing 'power-board' being used at present anyway in the caravan or the tent.

Maîneÿ . . .
AnswerID: 419617

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 12:19

Saturday, Jun 05, 2010 at 12:19
Hi

"Maîneÿ . . . replied:

[1] Down in the basic body of the ‘add’ it mentions the technical specs, that I understand are also the basic specs for many other much less expensive (to buy) brands, that consequently all pass the Australian standards for safety and also performance.
[2] These Protex devices may be perfect for their designed use, but I fail to see it becoming popular with a camper who does not have to relocate the device from one generator to another on a constant basis.


[3]Where used, as I believe campers would, the device is installed on their generator, the generator has to be capable of running 2 or more loads simultaneously, which I believe most will.


{4]The existing device used by campers (power-board) to run 2 or more loads simultaneously is presently situated with-in the caravan or in the tent, allowing for just one extension cable to run to the caravan or the tent from the generator.
The 240v is then distributed to the various devices being run.
By using this Protex device and having 2 or 3 or more extension cables running from the generator to each and every individual 240v device being used in the caravan or tent, would just negate the requirement of the device, simply because you would still need the existing 'power-board' being used at present anyway in the caravan or the tent.


Hi Re :
[1] there is no other APPROVED similar device [supplying same form of protection] on the Aus market.

[2] It has nothing to do with moving from one genny to another.
It is adding protection against shock to a fully isolated genny if a certain combination of faults occur
The RCD in the van does not give protection when using a portable genny or inverter

[3]The ideal location is @ /on the genny/

[4]The so called power boards you refer to are not legal under Aus 3001: 2008 fot use in tents..
Peter
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Reply By: Robin Miller - Sunday, Jun 06, 2010 at 08:51

Sunday, Jun 06, 2010 at 08:51
Looks Interesting OldTrack - lets hope it turns out to be so in practical application.
Robin Miller

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AnswerID: 419728

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Sunday, Jun 06, 2010 at 10:23

Sunday, Jun 06, 2010 at 10:23
Hi Robin
I do see a couple of problems that could occur with the RCD & RVD combo.
One ,which I pointed out earlier on another forum, was that the devise would be polarised.
It would need to be connected correctly to active & neutral or would false trip.
During testing they have now found that to be so.
I am still not sure that they have covered all the bases for the "Combo"
I believe they will find they still have one further problem to overcome.
Without details of the circuits I may be wrong
I will endeavour to keep this forum informed of developments with it when /if I get further info.
I personally think the RVD unit has a high potential for use with portable fully isolated gennys & inverters
It will trip on failure to earth anywhere in the circuit.ie if the genny or the circuit fails to be fully isolated from the earthing system.
Peter
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