Is it possible to flip tow ball over to gain height?

Submitted: Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 09:30
ThreadID: 79813 Views:19671 Replies:10 FollowUps:16
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Just wondering if this is possible, to safely take tow ball off the bar and flip the tow ball over to gain extra height?

We did this on the XTrail (towing van atm 1500), took it to work and had to get the tyre guys to undo the nut and re-do with professional equipment (name escapes me) so it was tight enough. Couldn't undo the nut with hand held equipment. We only towed the van once without any problems before we sold the X but I want to make sure it is safe enough to do before we attempt it again.

Other option: Are there different height tongues/ball mounts available to raise and lower height of tow ball (for Nissan Navara) before we go to a WDH?
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Reply By: Patrol22 - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 09:34

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 09:34
Yes I do this all the time....my garden trailer is low so have a hitch set for that height and my off road Kangacamper is high and have another hitch set up for that. Same types of hitch just rotated through 180 degrees with a ball permanently fitted.
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Reply By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 09:50

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 09:50
Have read somewhere that it was not recommended on the ones with the tongue cut at 45deg angle.

Nissan did some like that and it was pointed out that it put extra stress on the weld across the top which it was not designed for.

A HR with a square ended butt weld is OK.

This was discussed a bit on the Caravan & Motorhome forum.

Dont bite me Im just the messenger.

Toyota also had some and I think had a warning not to turn it over.


AnswerID: 422868

Follow Up By: age - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 10:33

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 10:33
Hi Graham/all

My "Genuine Toyota" hitch on a 100 series V8 Landcruiser comes with a plate that states in the "high" position max tow weight is restricted to 1500kg and in "low" position the full 3500kg. Pretty sure these bars were manufactured by QLD Towbars and fitted as genuine accessories.

I have towed a 1.4t boat (checked on weigh bridge to keep all legal) all over the place and off road up to Waddy Point/Fraser Island with no issues in the "high" position. i choose to tow like this as it gives the boat/trailer a nose up stance and more clearance under the drawer bar. In the low position it is all just too low - ie cable brake swing all vulnerable to being smashed.

Check with your bar manufacturer.

Cheers


A
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Reply By: briann532 - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 10:14

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 10:14
Jazzy, sorry to hijack your post, But...................

I was also wondering if anyone could advise about a very similar question.

I have a Tregg hitch and have flipped it so it hangs under the towbar rather than over.

I assumed that the same bolt going through will still have the same rating whether over or under.
I assume it is sheer strength we are talking about.
Perhaps after this thread I may be wrong?

Can anyone advise me.

Thanks
Brian
AnswerID: 422870

Follow Up By: Hairy (NT) - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 14:24

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 14:24
Gday,
I haven't given it a lot of though, but in my opinion......
You will be putting more stress on the bolt hanging it underneath so it will depend on the rating of the bolt weather or not it will be safe.

Cheers
Hairy
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Reply By: _gmd_pps - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 13:08

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 13:08
This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Foul Language Rule .

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AnswerID: 422882

Reply By: Hairy (NT) - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 14:18

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 14:18
YES,YES and YES again. LOL

Well probably......it all depends on the tow ball set up and how you use it.

If its rated at say 2 tonne and you turn it over and only use it for two tonne, I wouldn't think you would have a problem with it. Saying that I've seen some cheap overseas welds I wouldn't trust even in the correct position.

But Generally.......weather its the 90deg or 45deg type it wont make a lot of difference....the 45deg has more weld area, so even in the "wrong" position it should be as strong as the 90 deg ones anyway, if the plate is the same size and the welds are to the same standard.

I think people rely on engineers to much these days, and if you had as much to do with them as I do you would understand a lot of them aren't precise as a lot of people think.

Just remember....the whole set up is only as strong as the weakest link.
Theres no point worrying about a weld strength being reduced from 10 tonne to 9 tonne because your turning it upside down, when your tow hitch is held on by 3 x 1/2" mild steel bolts and your using a crappy Chinese ball.......if you know what I mean.

If your not sure, take it around to your local welder and just ask him.

Cheers
Hairy
AnswerID: 422886

Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 14:29

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 14:29
Ohhhh ... I think they are very precise ....

The computer and CAD programmes they spend all day playing with .... Make them so.





Thats why your suggestion to go talk with someone - who actually has daily, hands on experience with materials ..... Is a very good suggestion.
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Follow Up By: Allan B, Sunshine Coast, - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 14:44

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 14:44
Hairy, are you saying that "your local welder" is more skilled at determining the stress assessments than an appropriately qualified mechanical engineer with access to the data and methods to perform the calculations??

Well....good luck!

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Hairy (NT) - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 14:51

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 14:51
No???? Not at all.
Mind you it is quite possible.......

I simply said your local welder could probably tell you weather its safe enough or not by simply looking at the design and standard of welding........
Its a trailer hitch......not rocket science.
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Follow Up By: Allan B, Sunshine Coast, - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 15:08

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 15:08
Hairy, it is a little more complicated than simply the "design and standard of welding".

As gmd said above "the forces are different". When the hitch or "gooseneck" is inverted the towing and braking forces produce a different rotational force on the tow-bar assembly which must be taken into account in the loading assessment.

Why do you think that manufacturers such as Toyota provide two differing ratings as stated above by Age?

It may not be "rocket science" but it is a bit closer to it than just "Yair, the welds look OK to me..... go for it"!

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Hairy (NT) - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 15:23

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 15:23
Yep your right....you can make it as complicated as you like.
Or simple.....

Its either strong enough, or it isn't?????
Weather the design is determined by a bloke sitting at a desk crunching figures or by a bloke thats made a thousand of them and now knows what is tried and tested...........they should come up with the same result
Each to there own........I know which one I would rely on.

Its a bit like fitting a gate hinge......you could apply Newtons law and come up with screw gauges or you can throw one in all four holes just like people have done for the last 50 years knowing its plenty strong enough.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 15:40

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 15:40
Whats "weather" got to do with it anyway.

Its "whether" or not that it makes any difference.

We are trying to be correct here Arent we?????????? LOL
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Follow Up By: Hairy (NT) - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 15:52

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 15:52
Hahahaha....
Typical Kiwi....always thinking of sheep hey!
Or is that the other whether.......LOL
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Follow Up By: Member - Stuart P (WA) - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 15:55

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 15:55
yes you can
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Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 16:05

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 16:05
Good try Hairy but no cigar

Weather is when it rains etc

Whether or not it does may matter

A Wether is a castrated sheep or goat according to Wikipedia.

Kiwis at home dont worry about sheep, always lots of obliging Aussie girls around

ROFL


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Follow Up By: Skippype - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 16:33

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 16:33
Hairy I agree,
In my experience an engineer is someone who measures with a micrometer, marks with a piece of chalk, and cuts with an axe

Skip
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Follow Up By: Allan B, Sunshine Coast, - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 17:18

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 17:18
Very droll Skip.
Perhaps you should reflect on that next time you drive over a bridge or through a tunnel or fly in a plane.

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Hairy (NT) - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 18:03

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 18:03
Hahahahaha.......your not an engineer are you Alan?
Anyway he's only have a joke....I thought it was funny, and quite close to the truth.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Duncs - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 21:59

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 21:59
I am reminded of a friend of mine who is a civil engineer, not quite the same field but I ma sure you will get the idea.

He came home from Uni one day talking about a field trip day he had just been on. They were working looking at a building site and talking with the experienced engineers to see how it all worked in the real world.

My mate asked one of the engineers how they knew if the soil was dense enough to carry the load without compressing.

"We use the finger penetrometer test. "

"What's that?" said my mate.

"Poke it and see how it feels ." said the engineer.

My brother is a mechanical engineer. Every time I have asked him about what size bolt to use or how heavy a piece of steel should be for a particular application he has looked through my collection, found a sample and said "That should do it."

Now I am guessing when he designs something on his computer he takes the time to work it out precisely. Then double it and add 30 so it doesn't break too soon.

While I don't think it is absolutely simple I lean toward Hairy's side of the argument.

Duncs
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Follow Up By: ChrisE - Monday, Jul 05, 2010 at 23:44

Monday, Jul 05, 2010 at 23:44
I'm with you Allan.
Hairy a gate hinge isn't likely to kill anyone, but I'm sure you will be right to stand up in court and say that it was all good if someone is collected by a wayward trailer that has parted company from its tow car. That's why people rely on Engineers (or others qualified to do same) these days; they can use science to back up their opinion that will stand up in court (yes in most cases this is to the extreme, but when it turns bad, that's where it ends up).

By the way I don't disagree with your statement that it "should" be ok to turn it upside down, just the point you make in your post.

BUT the WDH is the way to go. The fact that it is needed suggests there are other factors like the cars rear suspension that also need to be addressed, so fork out the $800 and can adjust the height as much as you like with better towing all round.
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Reply By: john&thejayco - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 17:59

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 17:59
g'day Jazzy,
I'd have a yarn to your local Nissan dealer, I am not sure about the Nissan tow bars, but on my Prado's genuine Toyota tow bar it has a diagram showing ,tongues put in both ways , if you want to go either way it has a different part number for each tongue, so i guess each tongue is designed to take the weight differently.maybe it's the same with yours and you just need to buy the other tongue. hope this helps.
Cheers,
John.
AnswerID: 422907

Reply By: garny - Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 18:27

Saturday, Jul 03, 2010 at 18:27
Hi Jazzy
to alleviate all the can you or cant you reverse the hitch
not sure how you go with insurance
Ihave fitted a set of polair bags inside the rear coils on my nissan this
helps as a booster just add a little air for the correct hight
they sell for arround $350 more flexible i feel
regards Garny
AnswerID: 422908

Reply By: OREJAP - Sunday, Jul 04, 2010 at 09:45

Sunday, Jul 04, 2010 at 09:45
I took my camper trailer to a fellow who is a "gifted man". An engineer & very knowledgeable he cut the steel which held the coupling of my trailer & welded it to the A frame underneath which gave me an extra height of about 150mm.
AnswerID: 422952

Reply By: JAZZY - Sunday, Jul 04, 2010 at 14:31

Sunday, Jul 04, 2010 at 14:31
Thanks for replies, just took the van for a test run on the highway and it handles very well.

However, we do think we would benefit from putting on a WDH as it is not quite level on the road.

On a 4.7M span of the van there is a difference of 11 cms from front to back (back of van higher).

I guess with that incline, it would make a substantial strain on the suspension?

So, with a WDH, you can raise or lower the ball height? (ball on the Navara needs to come up).
AnswerID: 422985

Reply By: Member - Serendipity(WA) - Monday, Jul 05, 2010 at 14:58

Monday, Jul 05, 2010 at 14:58
As has been pointed out by others your towing hitch is over engineered to the load rating they spec.

I have a toyota hitch and they offer a picture that you can reverse the tongue.

This is good enough for me and if you needed a higher or lower hitch point this is the answer.

I have also seen tow hitches that are made to drop up to 200mm from the picture. I would not be has happy towing heavy with one of those - the forces would crack something somewhere.

David

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