CSR permits - now confused

Going down CSR in Aug - on this site it now says i need two permits - on for wells 40 down , and another to enter through Billiluna ... i am not going off the CSR (staying within the 2km easement) - visiting only wells & Durba Springs - so what permits do I need ?
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Reply By: Shaker - Thursday, Jul 22, 2010 at 15:01

Thursday, Jul 22, 2010 at 15:01
Have a look re: PERMITS

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Reply By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Jul 22, 2010 at 18:43

Thursday, Jul 22, 2010 at 18:43
You need no permits at all except as you go off the track.

Durba Springs isn't a well and is off the tracks as are several specific places listed where shaker directed you to.

As of about 10 days ago a group was doing a 100% check at Durba springs and not everyone entering permits (interesting).

By the way it wasn't worth visiting when we were there , water contaiminated, no firewood, group making a film , and various interested parties telling you not to go to the end of the campground as its a special place , don't walk over there etc - I could go on !

We just got the $50 permit from the 4wd association anyway - more or less to put some money in the kity.




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Follow Up By: Member - John Baas (WA) - Thursday, Jul 22, 2010 at 20:29

Thursday, Jul 22, 2010 at 20:29
Looks like it all depends on the day. We were there on the 8th July and there was only one other party of two vehicles.

We thought the place was stunning with the huge river gums and the red rock walls, in a park like setting, and we had a great fire that night as we had brought the wood in. Walked to the head of the gorge and no-one there but us. Spotted a great Stinsoms python too.

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Cheers.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Jul 22, 2010 at 21:35

Thursday, Jul 22, 2010 at 21:35
Hi John

That looks like the snake that lives in one of the wells much further north - must be common in that area.

I think we were in peak season , its a bit off putting when you drive slowly in a get asked to show permit and seeing so many other don't do this type signs.

I think our group thought you could get clean water and even swim their as well , but with so many offical looking cars and people around who weren't playing our sort of music - we shot thru quickly and found some peace and quiet - glad you had better luck.

There only a couple of places that the $50 permit gets you into now , and by and large I don't think its good value any more.




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Follow Up By: get outmore - Friday, Jul 23, 2010 at 03:55

Friday, Jul 23, 2010 at 03:55
blooooody hell

cross that off the list

theres far more remote spots within 1/2 a days dive of Perth no pemits required
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Follow Up By: Flynnie - Friday, Aug 06, 2010 at 23:35

Friday, Aug 06, 2010 at 23:35
Robin

I passed through Durba Springs a few days after you. There were only a few people and no "checking" of permits.

We may have similar ides on Durba Springs. The "Springs" in Durba Springs is a bit optimistic. It is a waterhole. Coming from the eastern states with a river with platypuses behind my place I found little of interest in the various waterholes. The desert scenery was of great interest to me and does not need a permit (as far as I can decipher)

I had a permit for the Martu part of the CSR. Somewhere along the journey I began to question what value the permit had.

Also I doubt anyone could be prosecuted for being "off track" when following the established and often sign posted tracks.

Flynnie
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Reply By: equinox - Thursday, Jul 22, 2010 at 21:43

Thursday, Jul 22, 2010 at 21:43
Hi Lizard,

That's the big question, one that probably won't be answered here...

What is the Canning Stock Route? Is it the original wide easement following the wells or is it the track that most 4wdrivers use? The Canning Stock Route is exempt from both the larger determinations being Martu and Birriliburu so the question needs to be addressed.

The aboriginal people have a right to the use of the land to a certain extent, however I feel that they ask for restrictions that are more than their legal right to do so and are currently relying on a majority of public naivety and quiescency to get their way.

You can get this permit and that permit; I think it is better to look at the bigger picture first rather than hand your money over to a 4WD association that does not represent you or reflect your vision.

Cheers
Alan





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Follow Up By: Member - Phil B (WA) - Thursday, Jul 22, 2010 at 23:01

Thursday, Jul 22, 2010 at 23:01
Hi Alan, you pose a good question.

The original easement was almost a direct line from well to well. It’s the route the drovers used to take the cattle down and their droving plant back up again. It’s not the vehicle tracks we use today, those came later and follow the easiest route that suited vehicles.

The first 4Wd crew to do the whole route was in 1968 and they did it from south to north in 5 weeks. They were Chudleigh, Wenholz and Co.

Another crew, Dave Morton and Co, did it direct in 1980, they went from well to well over the dunes and not via today’s tracks.

Nowadays we follow the vehicle track that wanders on and off the original easement. As those who have done the CSR will tell you; you often have two or three track options in how to get to some of the wells. They can’t all be the original easement.

If you want to see the early CSR plans – done by AW Canning himself, go to:

http://aeon.sro.wa.gov.au/Investigator/Detail_Related/Item_Related.asp?Option=Srs_Itm&RelId=50&SearchPage=Series&RelPage=9&RelSort=&RelOrder=

The first of the CSR maps is item 118, then go through to item 121 for the whole series.

To view each map bring up each item and click on the heading digital copy.

I hope you guys enjoy the maps if you haven’t seen them before.

Cheers

Phil
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Follow Up By: Member - John Baas (WA) - Thursday, Jul 22, 2010 at 23:34

Thursday, Jul 22, 2010 at 23:34
Thanks for that Phil. The maps are great in their detail.

When we were on the track we realised we couldn't have been following the drovers' paths all the way. We wondered how the 4WD track originated - clears it up nicely.

Cheers.
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Reply By: Member - Phil B (WA) - Thursday, Jul 22, 2010 at 23:22

Thursday, Jul 22, 2010 at 23:22
With regard to the question of permits and should you get them and why should the Aust 4Wd Assoc be involved.



Here’s a little bit of history on permits etc and why you should do the right thing.

Whether you think the Martu or whoever has Native Title over land has any right to ask us to get permits should not mean you don’t get permits. At this stage unless someone takes them on in court to test how far their powers extend, they hold the cards.

If some one does take such a matter to court they may win or on the other hand they may loose and Native title holders may find they have even greater powers than they originally thought. Its a risk.

I strongly believe you should get permits regardless of your feelings, if you don’t then more areas could be locked up. Failure to get permits, over visiting and failure to respect Calvert Range resulted in it now being off limits. Whats next?

When permits to travel the CSR were first mooted, there was chaos. Permits weren’t being issued in time, permit seekers were frustrated and so on.

So the Aust 4Wd Assoc stepped in and offered to run the permit system for the Martu etc and permits are now issued in a timely manner but under the control of the Martu etc.

If the Aust 4wd Assoc hadn’t made the offer we would most probably have a right mess today, with probably even more areas out of bounds on the CSR than we have now.
I believe we owe the Aust 4Wd Assoc a debt of gratitude.

Just my thoughts and cheers to all.

Phil

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Follow Up By: get outmore - Friday, Jul 23, 2010 at 04:02

Friday, Jul 23, 2010 at 04:02
sorry but the anfwda DIDNT offer to run the permit system

they tendered along with several other mobs (according to their website)

its like all the other whitefella businesses springing up for blackfella $$$ all coming from native title

if theres $$ to be had theres a lineup to get it
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil B (WA) - Friday, Jul 23, 2010 at 09:01

Friday, Jul 23, 2010 at 09:01
Thanks Get outmore,

I had heard there may have been tendering but I havent been able to find anything concetre aboyut that. I was led to believe by many that ANFWDA wanted to smooth the process out as I outlined above.

Anyway I don't think $50 a permit s going to make anyone rich, its no more than a admin fee with some money presumably going to the Native Title holders.

Don't wish to hijack the thread but where can I get more info on the tender process?

Phil
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Friday, Jul 23, 2010 at 15:55

Friday, Jul 23, 2010 at 15:55
I dont know - In serchead but came up with nothing

I got that info off f the ANFWD website wher it says they got awarded the permit issue in competiion with other partys or words to that effect

Its kinda a pet hate of mine that naitve title and aboriginal affairs has produced its own industry with litle to no benifit to the T.O

case in point we wanted to do some drilling in an area where a saced site was vaguely described to be (the exact location was never divuldged by its white discoverer)

so we paid 000s of $ to get an anthropologist out for 2 days to confirm th site was not on our lease and further exploration failed to find it anywhere

if the company adjacent to there wants to drill they will have o do the same thing even thoughwe cleared there area as well because the report can only show it isnt on Our lease

many 000s of $$$$$ and no benifit to T.O from organizations trading off of them
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Follow Up By: Jimbo (WA) - Friday, Jul 23, 2010 at 20:06

Friday, Jul 23, 2010 at 20:06
Quote from Phil B -

"Anyway I don't think $50 a permit s going to make anyone rich, its no more than a admin fee with some money presumably going to the Native Title holders."

My question is, and not necessarily to you Phil, is:

If the $50 is an admin fee - then why is there a requirement to pay an additional $15 for the permit to be posted out?

Quote from ANFWDC website -

"If you would prefer the package to be mailed to your postal address, there will be additional postage charges to be added to the purchase price. Current prices are $50 per vehicle Permit and a $15 postage, packaging and handling fee if it is to be mailed to an address within Australia."

It seems to me the $50 is a money grab by the ANFWDC and the admin is covered by the additional $15 they charge you!!

I'm all for permits, but not when it's a blatant money grab like this. The "permit" doesn't even give you any info that you wouldn't have already found doing the normal research for such a remote trip.

I've done the CSR quite a few times now, and it's an iconic and beautiful "trek" - and I wont be paying $50 the next time I do it.

Let the hate mail begin!!!
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