Removing seats - legal or not?

Hi Dazza,

Sounds like what you have done is what I would like to do. As we are heading off for 12 months, we will have a van most of the time, but there will be times where we disconnect and head off camping/boating for a few weeks at a time off road, hence wanting more storage in the Paj.

Thank you for your response, I will gladly show my other half the positive responses from the forum if they're all like yours! :-)

Hi ya Peter, I'm not sure whether 12 months would be classified as short term? Thank you for your feedback, we'll keep in mind the possibility of rego being knocked back and whether it's all worth the risk.

G'day Peter,
The way I understood it, you are NOT supposed to remove the seat belts if the seats are only being removed as a temporary measure.
So, if you are intending to do a big trip and want to remove the 2nd and 3rd row of seats, then you can do so without any problems as long as the seat belts are still in place. Apparently, leaving the belts in place indicates to the authorities that you HAVE only removed the seats temporarily; whereas removing the belts would tend to indicate that you have permanently removed the seats and as such you should have the vehicle engineered back to a 2 seater.

As long as you tell an officer of the law that the seats have only been removed temporarily (even if that is not actually the case), then you should be fine.

Roachie

Found this, thread 68121, reply 7 may help

Ian

See also Thread 28640

Ian

Search for "rear seats" (with quotes)

Thank you Ian, I normally try searching on the forum before adding a new thread but my searching skills seem to be hit and miss on this website and I didn't do it in this instance.

I've now viewed the two threads you have suggested and my question has been answered. Thank you.

I'd say the information you were povided with was incorrect see post below....

Hi Alan,

As much as I would like to remove the seats, I'm not keen on foregoing insurance if something happens given the $$$ the vehicle costs and I'm not sure about going through the engineer's certificate process. Perhaps the outcome is that I'll just have to learn not to take so much stuff away and pack better! Thank you.

I asked a vehicle modifer about removal of seat in Queensland.

He said if picked up to advise they were only out temporarily.

In my case i had removed one permanently so that I could use part of the assembly area like this


To make it legal had the seating reduced by one with a modification plate attached.
Cost about $130 from memory

Pedro

Morning John, from what I read it looks like there's plenty of people that have done it....some go through the compliance process, others don't. I think if it was a clear cut "yes you can" without anything else being considered my partner would agree, but given his reluctance to do it in the first place, going through any additional processes will mean a flat "no" I think and we'll just do a workaround. Thank you for your response.

Hi Pete, I have just been spending the past 20 minutes trying to find the regs for SA relating to this and pages that are supposed to be available on the Government website no longer exist!? So reading your article has brought a wry smile to my face as according to your article all is good. I blurted out a woo hoo when reading the positive response but I still need to work on convincing the other half....just need a bit more time! Thank you.

SA Regs 2010

and look under the section about modifications that you must tell the SA Motor registry about. You could also ring them but they will just give the advice in my link above. I went through this last year.

Regards

Pete

If you do do it it would also pay to fit a cargo barrier right behind the front seats as we did.
I put a floor in and had a 60lt Waeco and a washing machine sitting there

We also had one in the rear position to stop the small stuff on top of the drawers flying forward

Would be nothing like wearing afridge around the ears if things turn nasty and the stuff starts flying around.

I remember years ago a person being killed by a slab of beer flying through a Laser hatchback and slamming the person into the windscreen.

Was just sitting in the back of the hatchback till it stopped really quickly.

And yet the information you were provided with is in contraction of the actual requirement that is laid out in the Queensland Transport Departments own Vehicle Standard Instruction Bulletin (L 5.0) dated 14 July, 2005 (see my post above).

I get so frustrated that we (the public) are all too often given the wrong information and information that is contrary to the actual rules. This happens all too frequently with government departments - if they are going to enforce rules and regulations they should at least know the requirements.

They've cost you time and money for nothing I'd say.....

Cheers, The Landy

In my case and anyone going on a trip of indefinite length this would apply

"For the purposes of this policy, "permanent" means the seats are
removed for an indefinite period or not expected to be refitted".

I thought I would be away for 6 months 18 months later I am still not home so how would it not apply.

I asked the RTA how long was a "short time" and the answer was "Hmmmmmmm".

So I did it and knew that I wasnt going to get defected.

As i had also fitted cargo barriers I could not have anybody behind the front seats and that effectively changed the vehicle category which was verified by the RTA when I took the papers in to be changed.

They also confirmed that when I took it back in February when I replaced the seats.
I prefer to accept their ruling on the day rather than read what may be misinterpreted by someone reading the rather unspecific rules.

EG How long is "temporary" Even they wont give a definite answer to the direct question.

Hi Graham

I was coming from the point that all too often the actual staff in government departments enforcing rules often have a complete lack of understanding of them and this leads to angst and expense due to non-compliance concerns.

If, as you did, refitted the seats then it was temporary as that was always your intention regardless of whether it took you longer to do so than you originally intended, and this is allowed under the regulation by their own definition.

If you had a Troop Carrier, for example, that was registered to take 9 passengers and you removed the rear seats the category does change to a panel van. I went through this with my 1994 Landrover Defender which only has two side entry doors, similar to a Troop Carrier.

In terms of changing your vehicles category, I don’t believe you did. It was and remained a station wagon (with 4 side opening doors – a station wagon by definition) with or without the rear seats or cargo barrier.

At the end of the day you are the person that needs to be comfortable and you need to take any steps you feel necessary to accomplish that and I can fully appreciate where you are coming from. But it concerns me that all too often we do go the way of ‘accepting the ruling on the day’ simply because those who should know and understand the rules don’t....how inconsistent is that and we pay for it!!

Cheers, The Landy

I prefer to lean towards what I was told by an RTA officer than rely on your rather flawed argument of what is indefinite.

When I was asked how long was I going to remove them for I didnt know therefore it was deemed to be indefinite under the rules and I agreed.

What you believe and what the RTA said are two totally different things and they are the ones that matter.

Then I dont have to argue with insurance companies over who is right or wrong.

Its no good asying " A guy on the exploroz forum says your interpretaion is wrong"

I know what the answer would be and I would agree with them.

No further discussion is really neceessary as the original question has been answered and we are just P....ing in the wind now.

Let it be its been hashed out several times before with the same old same old. each time.

Hi Graham....

Understand and moving on, after all I wasn't looking for an argument, just posting information that might be useful and how anyone uses it is up to them.....that is what the forum is all about, isn't it?

Good luck out there, The Landy

Having worked on inbound calls in a call centre in between ‘proper jobs’, I appreciate the difficulty in getting a straight answer on what may apparently be a simple question, but in their (and my) defence, I will add the following;

Phone enquiries are usually answered by newbies within the department/company; being hired as phone fodder and paid a couple of cents per hour above the minimum Award wage. They are not solicitors and have minimal training

There is a team leader who is ensuring that they keep to KPI’s on the calls. The enquiry has to be answered, notes written up and the next call answered in a fixed period. Any deviation from this will be presented at your next performance appraisal. This ensures the place has a ‘tick and flick’ mentality

The legislation/policy under which they work can be confusing and whilst it might make sense to the legislators who have access to the bill and its explanatory notes, the poor bunny on the phone has to make a snap determination as to the applicable legislation and then has to explain it.

Remember that they can only answer the question they are asked; A caller asking; ‘I want to remove the seats from my car, does this affect the registration of the car?’ will elicit a different response to ‘I’m removing my seats out for a period to move some things, do I have to tell you?

I’d guarantee you would get two different answers. They don’t have the time, energy, interest or mandate to explore the matter beyond a limited response (from experience if you do this will also be bought up at your performance appraisal).

A work colleague at this time came out with the observation that the entire call centre could be closed down if there was 2 automated responses.

1. Read the expletive deleted legislation
2. Obey the expletive deleted legislation

If you think the answer is dodgy, send a letter to get a response in writing. The have more time to formulate a reasoned response

Hi Dean,
Yes, we are using the second fitment point for the cargo barrier on our NT paj. Just finished spraying a coat of paint on the cargo barrier which my partner has finished making and it's come up a treat. He's been tossing up the idea of laying the seat behind me down with a flat base added to put the Engel on, and folding the the other seat forward for travelling so I can fit a couple of tubs so that may be the way to go. Not what I really wanted, but it's a compromise.... :-)

The reason I removed mine was that as I wasnt going to use them as there was only two of us I couldnt see the sense in carting an extra 80 or so KG for what turned out to be a 50,000k trip.

Now Im home for a while if I want to carry the fridge I just fold the seats down and sit it on them. Due to its height its impractical to put it on top of the drawers as then it cant be opened.

I got some 15mm ply from Bunnings and glued some rubber matting from Clarke Rubber on it.
Bolted it down using the front barrier bolts and slid it under rear barrier.

The fridge just sat there and never moved on any of the roads we were on.

The floor is still at home in Brissy if someone wants it for a beer donation.
It fits in a 100ser right behind the front seats.

You ripper!!!!!

Thought I was running around with an illegal car for years. Seems not.

I have printed this sheet and will keep it in my car for future reference.

Thanks John.....

Cheers,

Mark

You should note that Vicroads HAS TO BE NOTIFIED of this change ! While an Approval Cert is not required, it is a requirement to notify them.

Quote from same article but back at the top of the section

"Before a vehicle can be used on a public highway, VicRoads must be notified of any changes if it affects the description of the vehicle (e.g. change of engine, colour etc.) Other changes may include, adding or removing seats, engine size or type, change of body, LPG conversion, and for trucks and buses, amending the gross vehicle mass of the vehicle."


Ian

Hi Ian,

The link I added informs you to advise Vicroads of the change.


Cheers,
John

John

If you read my post you woulld see the words "from the same article". I was just pointing out to readers that this info was there but you had to go back to the beginning to actually find it. Your link took us to the page following this statement. Some readers would not take the time to go back to the previous page, and therefore would have been unaware of the requirement to notify VicRoads.
Thanks for the link; I myself have been looking for this info for several years !

Ian

Hi Ian

This is the page complete, you do not have to go back the previous page.

If you read the page in full, it gives all required info of what is required, as I do not think you have

Removing, adding, and replacing seats


Any change to the seating capacity of a vehicle must be carried out in accordance with VicRoads guidelines.

Adding seats
You should ensure that the vehicle is suitable before installing additional seats. There must be enough room in the vehicle for the additional seats and occupants and the load carrying capacity must be able to accommodate the weight of the new seats and occupants.

Additional seats must be securely anchored to the structure of the vehicle and seat belts must be firmly fixed according to the strength and location requirements of applicable Australian Design Rules.

Seats are divided into three seat categories:


Category 1 - Seats for use by adults
These seats will generally change the category of vehicle from a goods carrying to a passenger vehicle, which are subject to higher safety standards. An engineer's report (VASS Approval Certificate) must be provided to show that the modified vehicle meets the higher safety standards.


Category 2 and 3 - Seats for use by children
Category 2 seats are restricted to use by children up to 12 years of age and weighing less than 39kg.
Category 3 seats are restricted to use by children up to 8 years of age and weighing less than 27kg.

Seats in these categories do not require an Approval Certificate but must be fitted in accordance with the manufacturer's specifications. You should consult an engineer if instructions are not available. Category 2 and 3 seats do not change the seating description of the vehicle and therefore you do not need to advise VicRoads of the change.

For more information about adding seats, see the Vehicle Standards Information No.19 - Additional or replacement seats [PDF 174KB, 2pp]


Removing seats
The requirements for removing seats will vary depending on:

the original number of seating positions
the new number of seating positions
which seats are removed
when the vehicle was manufactured

An Approval Certificate is not required if:

the number of original seating positions was less than 10
10 or more seating positions have been reduced to 2 - 3 seats in the front row only
10 or more seating positions have been reduced to 4 - 9 seats in a vehicle manufactured before 1970
more than 12 seating positions have been reduced to 10-12 seats in a vehicle manufactured before 1986
the number of seating positions does not reduce to below 13

If the modification is not listed above an Approval Certificate is required.




Replacing seats
An Approval Certificate is not required for a replacement seat provided:

the seat is offered by the manufacturer as an option and is replacing and existing seat
the original seat mountings are used
appropriate seat belts are fitted.
An Approval Certificate is required if:
the replacement seat was not offered by the manufacturer as an option
the vehicle was manufactured on or after 1 January 1969.
For more information about adding seats, see the Vehicle Standards Information No.19 - Additional or replacement seats [PDF 174KB, 2pp]




Advising VicRoads
If the modification has changed the seating description of the vehicle or an Approval Certificate is required then you must visit a VicRoads Customer Service Centre with:

evidence of identity
the vehicle
an Approval Certificate, if required.

An appointment is not required.


More information
For more information on vehicle modification guidelines:

View the Vehicle Standards Information Bulletins
call us on 13 11 71
visit a VicRoads Customer Service Centre.


Cheers,
John

Hi Nev,

I have realised from the amount of responses to my question that it's definitely not cut and dry as I hoped it may have been. I understand that there are legalities, but I too find it odd that different states may have different rules.

Whilst important to me that we try and utilise as much space as I can in the paj, I guess it's not mandatory that the seats are removed. I am just conscious that with a tinny on top and also pulling a van, the weight saved without the seats would add up given that with my little knowledge, load ratings/tow ratings for the paj isn't as great as a cruiser or patrol and I'd like to keep things as light as possible.

Personally I do feel you are concerning yourself far too much with this. Have a good read of the Queensland requirement as it is unlikely to differ from the other States. It is quite explicit; if you intend to refit the seats in the future then it is allowed regardless of how long they are out of the vehicle.


But you could ask three different people from Queensland transport and my money is on three different answers despite it being quite clear in the regulations. Put a copy of the Regulations in your glove-box and pull them out if you are ever challenged on it; I doubt you will be.


But putting that aside, I’d concern myself more with putting a tinny on top, a van on the back, and loading the Pajero up inside, the legality or otherwise of removing the seats from the vehicle may be the least of your worries.


And I am not looking to be provocative here, just trying to put some perspective on it…..

Good luck either way you go, and enjoy your trip!

Cheers, The Landy

Can I just say in answer to the original question the only definite way to get the correct answer is to go to your local RTA and get the answer in writing.

It is extremely dangerous to rely on opinions on forums such as these as most are personal thoughts and may or may not be factual.

My reply was an actual case of going to the RTA and an engineer qualified to give the answer and plate the vehicle accordingly.

Others have voiced opinions without getting such verification .

Personally, other than things like wiring diagrams or similar I prefer to research from the proper authorities and have the correct answer which will stand me in good stead should I ever have to argue the point with the law or an insurance company.

This I did in this instance and am confident I did the right thing.

"It is extremely dangerous to rely on opinions on forums such as these as most are personal thoughts and may or may not be factual."

A very valid point, but the poster asked for an opinion (not a solicitor), opening the door for opinions to be offered.....

Long live the forum, and those with an opinion and view (it would be boring without those attributes!)

Beer O'Clock....good weekend to you, The Landy

The OP actually asked this

"A friend has told us that it's illegal to remove back seats which are bolted down unlike dicky seats which only clip in. Does anyone know if this is the case?"

It requires a definite correct answer to allow him to do the right thing.

Not an opinion

As I said and the prev reply also said Get it off the RTA in writing not an opinion off here.

I agree forums are worthwhile but for things that could end up in a legal stoush the correct info from the relevant authority is the ONLY ADVICE I would follow and so should the OP.

Graham

I stand corrected it would seem they were looking for specific advice and not an ‘opinion’. Mind you if it is a legal stoush you are looking to be protected from then it would be best to seek legal counsel from someone qualified, rather than relying on a 25 year old behind the counter of the local RTA Office to interpret this rather ambiguous law.


Bugger! The legal eagle will write some long-winded legal ‘opinion’ to justify the $600 bill that comes with it, and you’ll still be no better off.

I surrender! It seems like the Department of Silly Rules, and Government Bureaucracy has won the day again….I can appreciate the reason why you went the way you did….

But let me share my experience (it will be brief) when I tried to ascertain and confirm the meaning of ‘Obstructing your Vision’ meant with respect to the fitment of a HF Self Tune Antenna on ‘The Landy’. I read the rules, and I certainly complied with the mounting requirements, but what did the bureaucrats define as ‘obstructing vision’.

To cut a long story short, I asked an RTA Official (yep another 25 year old) he suggested that it was based on putting a coke can about 20 metres in front of the vehicle, and in a line of sight where the antenna was between the driver’s position and the coke can (seriously!). Well I laughed at the joke, but he was dead-pan serious, so I told him it was parked outside antenna and all, and there was no way I could pass the coke test and would he like to defect the vehicle now (okay I’m a little provocative). Now he was laughing thinking I was joking, but I was dead-pan serious….

I’m sure you have the picture. Well the antenna is still on ‘The Landy’..I wrote to my local member and said they made this rule so could they define it for me, it went to the police for comment, no-one was really sure how to deal with it and in the end they confirmed if it was mounted correctly then I would never have an issue (and haven’t). Phew, saved myself $600 on a legal opinion………and I’ve got the letter in my back pocket.

The moral of the story….there is none, do what you think you need to get the level of comfort you want.

Okay…my absolute last on this topic.

Cheers, The Landy

Seeing it is Friday and there are a lot of pedantic replies or opinions and dispersions cast.

Answer this question how can a flightless bird fly the coop???

(Another Kiwi that flew the coop )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi

Image Could Not Be Found
Cheers,
John

I have been waiting for some slow Aussie to pick that up

It took a while ROFL.

Just a play on words which may be too subtle for some.

To The Landy

I never ask the counter staff, I email them and you then get a specialist to answer.
The engineer also rang someone I couldnt and checked.

The modification code is LK1

Fair enough and thats why I put my Codan aerial on the rear.

The rule is that nothing over 75mm dia may interfere with your vision. A Barret fixed lower down complies, a 9350 is 100mm in dia and doesnt apparently.
So I just put mine where the worklight goes on a Kaymar wheel carrier.

Wife would have been crosseyed looking past it for 50,000k LOL

Hope we are all agreed and finished with this and the OP goes where he should have in the first place and he would have got the correct answer. (Hopefully).

LOL

A bit deragatory

"I have been waiting for some slow Aussie to pick that up "

Lighten up you have chosen to live here with us slow aussies and we bowl a mean under arm.

"i'machocoholic" should have stated what state they reside in. eg "Removing seats - legal or not in Victoria??"
Your info is for Qld, mine is for Vic and we have also had SA involved, would have made for a more logical question to answer

Cheers,
John

Lighten up, Its been there for about 8 months, perhaps the underarm is the cause. LOL

Yes he should have stated which would have made it easier.

Lots of posts are like that though Not enough info to form a logical answer.

I notice on the 4wd Forum if you head a thread with, say just "Tyres" it will be deleted as they have rules about that sort of uninformative headings.

Cheers.

Australia is a lovely country, may not be so good after tomorrow if you are a pensioner. LOL

Hi guys,

Thanks for the light reading!

Actually "he" is a "she" and about half way through the thread, you'll see that I'm from SA.

Anyway, I managed to glean what I needed from the responses so it's helped me in that respect and I'm grateful.

Cheers....