Dual Battery setup - Subaru Liberty

G'day mates,

I am going to go on a trip around Australia. I've lived in Ballarat/Melbourne since pretty much forever and that's about the extent of what i've seen of the country.

I plan on going for 8 months to 1 year and due to my limited budget I am going in my Subaru Liberty ('96). I plan to be camping, WWOOFing and sleeping in my car a lot.

Pretty much what I'd like some help with is the dual battery setup I plan on installing.

I only need this to power a laptop and occasionally recharge a phone & other low power devices. I don't plan to use it extensively and when reading my plan, it is important to note that the aux battery will never be used start the engine. Thus the isolator and wiring will be used with this in mind.

I will have the aux battery housed in a battery box behind the passenger side seat. I will build a 12v cigarette socket into the box for ease of access.

-Battery: Neuton Power 55Ah NPD12550 AGM or FULLRIVER 55AH AGM DC55-12.
-Isolator: ABR SIDEWINDER DBi120
-Wiring: 8B&S (per cable) TWIN CORE 100AMP wiring (13MM split tube sleeving in engine compartment).
-Fuses on Positive cable: MAXI FUSE HOLDER 80amp and MAXI FUSE 60A fuses.
-20a circuit breaker between aux positive and 12v cigarette socket.

*I've seen conflicting reports on using fuses. I want maximum safely because I sleep in the car. Because the aux won't ever be used as an emergency start battery (from what I see from Redarc), 60amp fuses should be acceptable (I can easily use 80a instead). Will this affect charging off the alternator?

*The battery cable will be roughly 2-3 meters max, so from what I've read voltage drop from 8B&S cable over this distance shouldn't be an issue? Please correct me if I am wrong. Because I am running it through the engine bay firewall and cabin, I want to avoid larger cable (but not at the sacrifice of high voltage drop).

*Do you recommend I run the Aux negative cable directly to a chassis earth in the engine compartment or directly to the Start battery negative terminal?

I am confident in installing it myself, i'll use a multimeter during install to ensure its working correctly. Can the multimeter also be used to roughly gauge the batteries charge?

Is any other recommendations or suggestions to improve safety?

Planned install;
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Reply By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Tuesday, Oct 19, 2010 at 16:09

Tuesday, Oct 19, 2010 at 16:09
Smackthewise,

the easiest, most economical, quickest, and safest way of doing this is by replacing your starter battery with a 50Ah spiral wound pure lead/tin AGM battery.

NO fuses, NO switch gear, NO wires to catch fire, just a ciga lighter socket plug-in-type voltmeter, and a small 60~80W solar panel.

The 50Ah spiral wound AGM battery combines 690 cold cranking amps with 50Ah of true deep cycle capability. You can expect your lappy to run for 12 hours and still start the car.

Purpose of the solar panel is cell equalisation.
Connect it across the battery once per week and let the voltage rise to 16~16.5V. Then disconnect the solar panel, and pack it away.

If interested, and you can see my profile, just click on it and find our contact information.

cheers, Peter
AnswerID: 433567

Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Tuesday, Oct 19, 2010 at 22:25

Tuesday, Oct 19, 2010 at 22:25
Yeah, but this leaves NO safety margin. Might be quick and easy, but what hapens if you acidently leave your lights on or something else that was not intended - no starting in the morning :(

A dual battery gives you a safety margin for those unexpected things, plus the addd advantage in the unfortunate event that one batteries dies you have a spare to start from. Think of it like your tyres, would you no longer take a spare if you upgraded your tyres from Passenger to Light Truck?

Cheers

Captain
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FollowupID: 704546

Follow Up By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Tuesday, Oct 19, 2010 at 22:39

Tuesday, Oct 19, 2010 at 22:39
.....safety margin for those unexpected things....

unexpected things such as malfunctioning isolation solenoid switch, draining both batteries, the solenoid switch upsetting the ECU due to contact bounce creating wild voltage fluctuations on the 12V line...

If it can fail, it will fail.

But I agree, there's the possibility of leaving the lights on, draining the battery o/n.

That's when the solar panel comes out in the morning ;)

cheers, Peter
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FollowupID: 704548

Follow Up By: Smackthewise - Wednesday, Oct 20, 2010 at 14:07

Wednesday, Oct 20, 2010 at 14:07
Thanks for the idea Peter but I have to agree with Captain, I am pretty set on having a dual battery system to ensure the Starting battery is only used for running the car. I don't want any devices using it once the engine is off.

I can also easily install an Anderson plug or such to the battery box to make the unit quickly mobile. I am unsure if this will actually come in handy, but I like the flexibility.

The setup I have suggested is dead set easy to install and once running requires very little maintenance. Because I only need the bat for 1 year, I am not overly concerned about draining it past 50% and reducing its lifespan.

I was hoping someone with the practical experience would be able indicate if the 60 or 80amp fuses and cabling would be safe and not result it a noticeable voltage drop.
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FollowupID: 704598

Follow Up By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Wednesday, Oct 20, 2010 at 15:09

Wednesday, Oct 20, 2010 at 15:09
allright then:

start with measuring the actual starter battery voltage while revving the motor a bit.

You want to see at least 13.8V
If that's ok, you can then think about the aux battery.

You've planned using a 55Ah unit.
Because this is a cyclic application, your alternator won't charge your aux fully.
To get it close to fully charged, the depth of discharge shouldn't exceed more than 50%, and the alternator run times need to be greater than 10 to 12 hours before another discharge cycle.

Because you won't be driving that much on a daily basis (I hope!), the battery will be sitting there, partially discharged for extended periods of time.
The resulting sulphation gradually eats away on your battery capacity, which increases the daily DOD (at constant load pattern).
In other words, you walk the capacity down over the months until it won't supply the expected Ah any longer.

One way of achieving a faster charging rate and an overall higher state of charge, is by selecting spiral wound pure lead/tin chemistry.
These take in charge rapidly even at the low alternator voltage.

B&S8 wire is rated 85A @ 60% duty cycle, so that should be ok.
It is specced 2.4mOhms per metre, so expect a bit of voltage drop during the early stages of bulk charging.
But that's probably a good thing in order to limit the max charging current through your smallish aux, which shouldn't exceed 12~15A anyway.
In case you select a bigger battery, or a spiral wound AGM, you should use at least B&S6. Spiral wound AGM, rated 50Ah can be recharged by 60A+.
If the chassis ground is firm, no rust, use it for the 55Ah battery - otherwise run the aux negative back to the starter/alternator negative.

20A fuse in the ciga lighter wire is a bit heavy on the wires which would need to be of 5mm auto type (rated 25A).
Note that the ciga lighter socket itself is only good for 8~10A continuous duty, so just leave the original fuse in there.

cheers, Peter
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FollowupID: 704608

Follow Up By: Smackthewise - Thursday, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:27

Thursday, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:27
Excellent, thanks for the advice. I'll do some more research on the Spiral wound AGM's and definitely look at them as an option.

I've got a dumb battery charger for when I am connected to mains, so hopefully I can use this too and not reply 100% on the alternator as I know they never recharge to full capacity.

Thanks Peter.

-Z
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FollowupID: 704742

Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Thursday, Oct 21, 2010 at 13:15

Thursday, Oct 21, 2010 at 13:15
Hi Peter,

You will need to go for a VRLA (valve regulated lead acid) battery, of which the AGM is one type. VRLA batteries do not vent hydrogen in normal operation, unlike wet cell lead acid batteries and this is critical when installing inside the vehicle.

AGM batteries are sensitive to overcharging and I wouldn't recommend a "dumb" charger, it can easily overcharge an AGM and this can lead to hydrogen being vented. While there is much talk about not achieving 100% charge, so what? There is no damage to a battery if it is not fully charged, its running it down too low when the damage occurs. If you stay between say 50% - 90% charge, you will get a very long life from the battery and no need to suppliment the charging with a "dumb" charger and run the risk of damage by overcharging it.

If you think you have opened a can of worms with this battery question, you are right :) The more you delve into it, the more you find that there is no simple or "right" response - just more questions!

To answer your original questions;
1. The 2nd battery earth needs a good ground, while you could simply wire to a good ground, just as easy to run both + and - ve wires while doing the +ve.
2. A 60 or 80 amp fuse will be fine, no practical difference between the two.
3. A 20 amp fuse is fine, but on the high side for a single cig plug. Sound like you only plant to draw low power thus a 10 amp may be a better choice.

Bottom line is, you have planned what I would do given your needs and circumstances. There are many different and equally good ways to do it and you have chosen a very suitable way.

Cheers

Captain
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FollowupID: 704747

Follow Up By: Smackthewise - Thursday, Oct 21, 2010 at 14:46

Thursday, Oct 21, 2010 at 14:46
Thanks Cap,

I know the dumb charger is risky and can potentially damage the battery. But i don't expect to use it unless I have to and unless the battery is very discharged. I'd plan on buying a smart charger if I could find a cheaper one! $40-60, even if it was slow.

:D I certainly knew what I was getting myself into. I've read some fierce debates about dual battery setup's and such, including on exploroz. Thank you for the tips, i'll have a better look for a 10amp breaker. The supplier I was sourcing off only had 20amp min.
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FollowupID: 704750

Follow Up By: ABR - SIDEWINDER - Thursday, Oct 21, 2010 at 19:27

Thursday, Oct 21, 2010 at 19:27
Hi STW

Your maxi fuses are fine and I would use a standard blade fuse holder and a 10 or 15 amp fuse depending on the load.

Sorry I am still on my trip and only just spotted this thread, email me directly if you wish.

Regards

Derek from ABR
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FollowupID: 704778

Follow Up By: ABR - SIDEWINDER - Thursday, Oct 21, 2010 at 19:29

Thursday, Oct 21, 2010 at 19:29
Oh, before the above gets moderated....

The fuses are available from Repco, Supercheap, Jaycar, eBay, etc.

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FollowupID: 704779

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