12Volt Wiring, Wire Sizes - some mysteries unravelled??

Submitted: Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 15:29
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I am hoping this may simplify and help many of the people out there trying to do a few things for themselves with 12V wiring. Please be aware though that even 12V at high current is dangerous if not handled properly. For info my credentials say I am an Electronics Engineer - while most detailed theory is misplaced due to age, the basics of electricity are very solid.

If this is repeat information for some, forgive me, but I see a lot of questions on the forums asking about wire sizes and "what should I use for ..." and not many accurate answers - Collyn Rivers has put up some good articles in this area and how it can the operation and performance of some equipment.

I will put the facts first and waffle second for those who do not need to read past the facts. And I am happy to enter into discussion and correct myself anywhere as necessary.

*** SImple Bottom Line ***

There is a cost to doing it right and a cost saving in doing it only once. There "ain't no free lunch".

You need to know two things to choose the right cable - how much maximum current is going to be required in the load, and what is the minimum voltage required by the load to guarantee proper performance as per manufacturers design specification.

From this and the simple calculation below, you can then go to a retailer / supplier and get the right cable based on two specific parameters - the maximum continuous current and the resistance per unit measure.

Yes there are many variables to add to this, but we want to keep it simple and choosing cable over and above what you calculate at maximum possible requirements will allow for many of the variables we are not considering (such as losses through connections at batteries, fuse boxes, the load itself, in current, and duty cycles).

** Simple Calculation ***

You need to know how far the cable is going to travel from the 12V source and the maximum current the load (one or more devices) need.

Determine cable required by calculating the Maximum Resistance the cable can have to achieve the maximum voltage drop allowed over the distance required. I will use ohms per 1000m for this formula.

Max Resistance = (Max Volt Drop x 1000) divided by (Max continuous Current x Distance in metres)

So for 30A over 5 metres with a maximum 0.36V drop

Max Resistance = (0.36 x 1000) / (30 x 5) = 2.4 ohm per 1000 m

So whatever cable you are looking to buy (solid, low or high strand cable) it MUST simply have a resistance of less that 2.4 ohms per 1000 metre AND be rated for 30Amps continuous current to suit this example.

*** Good References ***

The following link which is a very handy guide as to what size cable is required for what current over what distance - note this has nothing to do with how much current a cable can carry!!

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/amps-wire-gauge-d_730.html

The following links are for cable sizes and equivalents in various standards - note B&S is the same as AWG.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wire-gauges-d_419.html
http://www.dave-cushman.net/elect/wiregauge.html


*** Waffle ***

Forget looking a a retail spec of (for example) 8B&S 100Amp 7.9mm2 cable - this is meaningless for what you are trying to achieve. It might carry 100Amp for 10 seconds before is self destructs. More realistic spec for this cable is that 8B&S should be near 8.3mm2 (not 7.9mm2) which relates to resistance of the cable, and would carry 30Amp over 15 feet, or only 15A over 30 feet ao as to maintain a low loss of voltage over the length of cable.

The only real meaningful specifications are maximum Continuous Current rating (Amps) and resistance per unit measure (ohms per metre). The cable has to be capable of carrying the amount of current you need continuously (or based on duty cycles of high current / no current which gets far more complex) so that it does not break down due to heat, and has to have a low enough resistance such that you do not lose a lot of voltage over the length of the cable.

If they cannot supply this information, don't buy the cable - and if they can supply the information even then you have to trust the manufacturer's specification is accurate so the reputability and country of origin of the manufacturer also comes into question. If it looks thinner and costs less it is probably not up to spec regardless of what they tell you.

You need to stay within the maximum continuous current rating of the cable as determined by the load you are supplying, and you want the voltage at the load (not the source) to be no less than 11.64V (based on 3% loss of voltage over the length of cable as being the general maximum loss for 12V circuits). This does of course depend on the device - globes will care a lot less than fridges or TV's and manufacturers will each have their own design specifications and minimum voltage for reliable operations.

Note that maximum continuous current ratings of cables are also affected by the way they are run based on heat dissipation - as in free air, inside insulation materials, in conduit, in ground, and combinations of these - and you are not likely to get the individual specifications of the cable. Retailers will always tend to promote the maximum values to make the product sound good - eg. the 100A rating on the 8B&S cable I have seen.

The 2 most important factors in your finished product are capability to carry the current required and a low voltage drop from the source to the load. Quality of cable and connectors, and clean, tight fitting connections from souce to destination is paramount. This is far more critical at 12V operations than 240V operations.

The source might not be the battery - you can have a number of intermediate points at time such as fuses, distribution panels, terminal blocks, etc. Like a water reticulation system, you have the biggest pipes at the start and they reduce down as you start to distribute the water to the individual destinations and the required water flow becomes less.

If in doubt or the cable and connector size is an issue, run 2 or more runs of smaller cable from the source to the destination instead of one larger cable and use terminal blocks (both Pos and Neg) as necessary.

Use distribution points (terminal blocks or fuse boxes) to feed devices independently rather than try and feed a lot of devices from one cable run. This will make calculations less complex.

The reason you use high strand count cables as opposed to single solid conductors or low strand count household electrical cable is simply for flexibility of the cable and thus resistance to fracturing at joints due to constant vibration and movement in a motor vehicle. Nothing to do with current carrying capacity!!

A general rule is that (for a 12V circuit) the voltage drop should be less than 0.36V (3% of 12V) from source to load. This means you need a minimum of 11.64V at the load - obviously some devices (light globes) will care less than others (fridges, TV's) in terms of operations, and every manufacturer will have their own minimum specification).

Voltage drop over cable is determined by current flowing and resistance of the cable - again nothing to do with how much current a cable can carry!! Hence the important specifications being the continuous current rating of a cable and its resistance per unit measure.

This is based on a 12V source - and of course battery voltage (source) will probably start out at more tha 12V but will reduce to less than 12V untill it reaches the point where no matter what you have done in terms of cabling the load will not work (or not work properly).

Ken
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Reply By: Member - Stuart P (WA) - Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 15:43

Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 15:43
8 B&S will carry 100 amps for more than 10 seconds before it self destructs, most cars run that to their 140 amp alternators , with the running of their harnesses the distance could be over a metre and under or over the hot parts of the motor, that should increase the resistance , and by rights with your theory self destuct
AnswerID: 439851

Follow Up By: KenInPerth - Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 20:28

Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 20:28
Hi Stuart - thanks for your input and it raises a good point for discussion - but you are now talking about cranking and charging circuit design rather than 12 Volt supply to appliances. I would put forward the following for those that want to read on.

I do not want this to be a complicated discussion for those that are not interested in the technical aspects - but use the formula provided by Peter in his reply and for 140A over 2 metres of 8B&S (assume 2 x 1metre of 8mm2) you would lose 0.574 Volt at the load and this equates to some 80Watts of power being dissipated by the cable - and that is going to warm any cable up after a period of time.

Generally cranking / charging cable designs are for short term high current loads (cranking state) that reduce significantly once the thing has started (charging state) and I have seen manuals state that you should not crank for more than say 30 seconds and then wait 2 minutes (as an example). Cranking a car and running light globes can probably suffer that amount of lost voltage, but some appliances will not. Also, when charging batteries the current reduces as charge comes up and thus voltage loss reduces sort of cancelling each other out - but that is a whole new discussion about batteries and charging and alternator current ratings and house batteries and smart chargers and ...

The fact still remains it is not just whether the cable can carry the current or not, but whether the voltage drop over the distance used is acceptable AND the cable can carry the required amount of current either continuously or intermittently as required for the particular application. The 100 Amp rating in simple continuous current applications is irrelevant unless that is the genuine continuous current rating of the cable. It might be a rating for a 50% duty cycle and not continuous. You have probably seen tiny little computer speakers rated at 500W - yeah right. It is a misleading rating based on a very a short burst of power (peak power) - run 500W through them continuously and they would smoke. You can run more current through a cable in short timed bursts than you can continuously and that is where I have ignored duty cycles for simplification. The same applies to domestic welders which have a duty cycle for similar reasons based on the amount of current you draw on the weld - which translates to heat and subsequent melting of bits. And the same applies to domestic 240 cable in terms of how much current over what distance and heat dissipation for acceptable results.

I know what you are saying, but a 140A alternator does not mean it is supplying 140Amps continuously - if it ever supplied 140 Amps it would probably only be for a very brief time (duty cycle) and therein begin the variables. Also we are ignoring other design concepts very like type of insulation and source of manufacture. Cables just ain't cables. I have seen many cables with "the same spec" from different manufacturers and they are just not the same amount of copper, strands, insulation properties, etc. You only have to compare standard domestic 10A power cable from various sources to see how different they can be - and I have seen a few in my time.

Ken
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Follow Up By: Member - Stuart P (WA) - Monday, Dec 27, 2010 at 00:58

Monday, Dec 27, 2010 at 00:58
as an auto sparky myself the volt loss you are descrbing is more than actually happens , the rule , that i go by and have used over the last 22 years is at 7 meters there is the extreme of volt drop , no matter what size cable , so if you are running 8 b&s to charge and run your battery or fridge in a trailer , if the vehicle is charging at 13.8 - 14.2 or 14.6 as in newer vehicles, the vo;t drop to the trailer will be in ideal conditions 13.2 - 14 v
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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 16:49

Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 16:49
Gday Ken,
What are the advantages and disadvantages of used tinned cable in automotive/RV applications?
AnswerID: 439855

Follow Up By: KenInPerth - Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 20:46

Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 20:46
Someone may know better than me on this one but I will put forward what I know and believe in.

The main reason is that it resists corrosion much better when it is tinned (especially important in a marine environment to which you could equate the RV environment to some extent). The down side is higher cost.

I am sure most of us have seen that dirty dull brown and green end of an old copper cable - and that can travel quite some way up inside the insulation so if ever the cable has to be re-terminated you often have to replace (or join) the cable rather than try and clean each strand back to it's original shiny copper colour. Corrosion also equals reduced cross section area and higher voltage losses as we have been discussing. Re-terminating without cleaning results in a "dirty connection" which again equates to higher resistance and more voltage loss, hence my comment originally about clean, tight fitting connections.

This discolouration is also a classic indication of too much heat in the cable as a result of the cable being too small for the application and this can also show up on tinned wire as dark burnishing or even destruction of the tinning.

Another advantage of tinning is for easier soldering - but my thoughts on using soldering in automotive applications (or anywhere stranded cable is used for reasons of flexibility) is that you are basically turning the end of the wire at the connection point into a solid core cable again and increasing the risk of it fracturing through vibration and movement - the reason you used stranded cable in the first place was to avoid this. So I do not believe in soldering stranded cable in such applications.

Ken
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 21:55

Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 21:55
Thanks Ken.
I had to replace some of the wiring on my 7 year old Tvan because of corrosion - particularly the earth lead coming from battery to Anderson plug which was corroded along its whole length. The wire was at least 6B&S and had a fair bit of voltage drop when tested with a 15A load which is what alerted me.

I have now vowed to use Tinned cable with all my automotive work. Apart from the very small cost difference I cannot see why caravan and camper manufacturers don't routinely use it.

Cheers
phil
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Follow Up By: KenInPerth - Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 22:01

Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 22:01
Phil

I am glad someone sees the point of what I am trying to put up here - it has already deteriorated into an argument rather than a helpful discussion.

Oh well - at least you have backed up my thoughts for using tinned wire with a very real example.

Ken
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Reply By: Peter_n_Margaret - Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 18:56

Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 18:56
VOTLAGE DROP (for copper) =
[cable length (in metres) X current (in amps) X 0.0164] divided by cable cross-section in mm.sq.

Note that Cable length is the total of supply PLUS earth return.

Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 Motorhome
AnswerID: 439858

Follow Up By: KenInPerth - Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 19:54

Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 19:54
Extremely good point that I did not clarify - the length of cable to be used in the formula is twice the length of the physical cable run as you are running both positive and negative cables to the load.

In my example I was effectively calculating for 2.5m physical distance from source to load, 5 metres total of cable.

And thanks for the formula.

Ken
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Reply By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 21:26

Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 21:26
Well I use 6 B & S from Aux battery to van batteries and 8 B & S to the fridge

and neither have melted or not done what they are supposed to.

They never get hot either.

Have 2 B&S between batteries and isolator Its high power cable from a car

stereo and is Oxygen free.

All have done 60,000k with no worries.


Cheers

AnswerID: 439866

Follow Up By: KenInPerth - Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 22:15

Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 22:15
Graham

That is good news - you are actually supporting what I am saying in that the "big pipes" are at the head of the parade (2B&S) reducing down in steps as you get further from the source.

The fact you have had no problems means that the wiring you have is perfectly adequate for your situation.

The purpose of the post was NOT to infer that all people may have a problem waiting to happen, but simply to help those who are going to do something use something concrete to go into a store and get the right cable for the job.

Unfortunately the way a lot of things are marketed these days is not really helpful. I mean all cars have 4 wheels and seats - but they are not all the same. Even the seats and wheels can vary between makers.

I am simply trying to emphasise the point that the application for the cable has nothing to do with how much current a cable can carry - it goes a lot further than that and unfortunately the way products are marketed does not help the DIYer make the right choice sometimes.


Refer http://www.fridge-and-solar.net/wire.html

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Reply By: KenInPerth - Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 22:15

Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 22:15
Hi all

Already it is clear a few people will interpret what I have put up here incorrectly - I am not telling anyone thay have done anything wrong, or their current installation is wrong, I am simply trying to put up something to help those who may still be looking to answer the question "what do I use for ...." - and there seems to be a lot of people asking that simple question and no one supplying them and them an answer they can use to work out what they need.

Already this thread has turned into an argument rather than a helpful discussion. Well there may be a few out there that will find it helpful, and have not wasted my time. Anyone that has an understanding of the fundamental Ohms Law will know why I am trying to help those that don't, and Collyn Rivers has obviously seen the problems first hand.

The simple fact is that if you are not having any problems then the cable is perfect for what you are doing.

Those that want a simple "rule of thumb" erring on the cautious side then use my calculation and take the trouble to force the supplier to provide the meaningful parameters for the cable you are buying, not the specs that are irrelevant to your application. Remember that cable length is that of the total length of both cables - twice the physical distance from source to load.

Refer to this article for more
http://www.fridge-and-solar.net/wire.html
AnswerID: 439871

Follow Up By: Karunjie - Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 22:29

Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 22:29
Ken, thanks for the info. I think people are getting what you're saying and I haven't seen it degenerating into an argument. Perhaps you're being a bit sensative. Graham always shoots from the lip so don't worry about him too much;-) Sage advice and well worth considering.
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Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 22:59

Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 22:59
Hmm Not sure if I should say thanks or ?????

Seems I may have got it right even though I cant understand the formula for working it all out at all.

I just asked several knowledgeable people what size would do and bought one size heavier LOL.
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Reply By: Member - Marc Luther B (WA) - Monday, Dec 27, 2010 at 01:17

Monday, Dec 27, 2010 at 01:17
Hi Ken

I assume this means I am safe using 8 B&S for charging my battery in my trailer.

Cheers
Why travel overseas, you could travel Australia your entire life, and not see it all.

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AnswerID: 439876

Follow Up By: KenInPerth - Monday, Dec 27, 2010 at 02:21

Monday, Dec 27, 2010 at 02:21
Hi Marc

I will post part of the reply from Stuart as charging circuits are vastly different to supply feeds to appliances which tend to have a constant current requirement. The only answer I would give is that if the wires at the connectors are not showing signs of heat stress (brittle insulation and dark burnished wire colours) then yes it is working OK for you. A charging circuit is very "dynamic" and is not what I am trying to discuss here - I am trying to give people a fairly simple means to determine what cable they need from a supply to a load based on the battery being at 12V. Unfortunately in real life it is very dynamic and simple rules do not apply.

From Stuart
" ... the rule , that i go by and have used over the last 22 years is at 7 meters there is the extreme of volt drop , no matter what size cable , so if you are running 8 b&s to charge and run your battery or fridge in a trailer , if the vehicle is charging at 13.8 - 14.2 or 14.6 as in newer vehicles, the volt drop to the trailer will be in ideal conditions 13.2 - 14 v"

You can go and buy a pretty cheap somewhat accurate meter from DSE or Jaycar and go measure these yourself to see what you are achieving. Unless the wire you have is showing any obvious signs of stress then you don't have a problem other than to check you are achieving a good voltage at the caravan as per Stuart's notes, otherwise you will not be getting a good level of charge in your caravan for when the tow vehicle is not running - and this then comes back to the minimum operating voltage required by the fridge for reliable operation as the battery discharges.

Ken
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Reply By: Sailinghampster - Monday, Dec 27, 2010 at 09:34

Monday, Dec 27, 2010 at 09:34
Hi Ken,

All sounds technical.. Brain strain here I am sorry to say. How about these conundrums?

Can any 12 volt wiring applications be too large a size?

and

To what purpose, for example, can I apply the stripped out 10amp 240 volt extension cord multi-strand blue, brown and green/yellow wire?

(Thanks for taking the time.)

Cheers



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Follow Up By: KenInPerth - Monday, Dec 27, 2010 at 11:56

Monday, Dec 27, 2010 at 11:56
Hi

Yes - what was intended to be a simple "rule of thumb" turned into a technical debate. This answer is a bit long winded but needs to be to cover the detail.

******
As fas as your first query goes a cable can never be "too big" as far as voltage and current distribution goes - the bigger the better. It would only ever be the physical size of the cable and connectors that would present a problem.

It is a bit like putting in a 90mm downpipe to run a trickle of water to a plant - you will never use the full capacity of the pipe for that purpose, but it is there if you need it.

******
For the second question, you could use domestic power flex for anything that requires 10Amps or less at any voltage DC or AC up to the 240V area. It is just as good a cable as any other cable you would buy with similar ratings.

BUT

Based on the formula I have presented for 12Volt use, and cross checked with the formula from Peter, this cable would lose the 0.36 Volt (3%) over about ** 2 metres at 10A load ** and about ** 4metres at 5A load **.

The data I have from Olex for this type of cable is that it is nominally 1 sq mm cross section hence it has a high resistance per 1000m (19.5 ohms / 1000m according to Olex) as compared to 8B&S which is around 2.2 ohm per 1000m and hence will achieve longer distances for the same voltage drop (about 17m at 10A and 14m at 5A).


And OTHER CONSIDERATIONS

There are International and Australian standards for colour coding of insulation - your cable being generally for 240V non-fixed cable like Extension Cords and Lamp cords as distinct from fixed "in building" wiring which is generally Red and Black. This may "upset" an Electrician should they stumble on it in a DC wiring situation if you used it as a 12Volt feed - even if it is obvious it is 12 Volt.

Is it legal and would it pass inspection if used for wiring other than 240Volt - ** I do not know the answer to that ** - maybe there is someone out there that knows the current regulations and any standards as applied to RV's.

It is a case where it is OK when the RV is yours because you know it was done, but a subsequent owner may have some issue arise where it creates confusion or a legal issue, or it may be a problem if you have to have the RV inspected for some reason. I would probably use it myself in a car or other situation where there was no mix of different voltages (like a car which is 12Volt only) and if I used it in an RV that had mixed 12V and 240V systems I would tag it at least at the appliance and to show it was 12V. ** Would it be legal - I don't know. **

Ken


As a postscript, in the "old days" Australian power flex was Red, Black, and Green until we changed to the International standard.

Ken


As a postscript, in the "old days" Australian power flex was Red, Black, and Green until we changed to the International standard.

And (for the technical people) yes AC and DC dynamics are very different but this is meant to be a simplistic discussion.
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Follow Up By: Sailinghampster - Monday, Dec 27, 2010 at 18:35

Monday, Dec 27, 2010 at 18:35
Hi Ken,

Nice one. I think that all made sense but will it stay. Time will tell.

Thanks..
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Follow Up By: KenInPerth - Monday, Dec 27, 2010 at 20:30

Monday, Dec 27, 2010 at 20:30
I also fell into the trap again of only considering a single wire - so all the distances I mentioned need to be halved and the 8B&S were wrong (sorry)


240Volt Flex
** 1 metre at 10A load ** and about ** 2metres at 5A load **.

8B&S
about 9m at 10A and 18m at 5A).

The thing I have been considering in all this is that it can all be simplified further. It has generated some interesting discussion.

1. a lot of equipment will not care what the voltage is - it will work until the voltage is too low to operate. This would only be a real issue is some piece of equipment could be damaged by trying to work at too low a voltage.

2. If the wires are not "melting" or getting really hot then you have the right size cable for the job.

3. If anyone is looking to put in new wiring and do want to apply some "science" to the end result then use the formulae provided to try and get the right cable so you do not have to do it again. If in doubt or it is too hard, double what you think you need.


To think this all started from "what size cable do I need to use for ....."

Ken

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Reply By: Allan B, Sunshine Coast, - Monday, Dec 27, 2010 at 22:01

Monday, Dec 27, 2010 at 22:01
I can keep my silence no longer!!!

To quote KenInPerth... "If the wires are not "melting" or getting really hot then you have the right size cable for the job."
This has to be about the worst piece of advice that I have seen on this forum and is so patently ridiculous that it needs no elucidation.

I am sorry Ken and mean no malice but this thread of yours is both confusing and technically incorrect. Instead of being of help to someone unskilled in electrics it could lead them into really poor action. I do not intend to get into a slanging match of dissecting your expressions but would warn people to disregard your entire expression for fear of becoming lost in the ramblings.

If anyone seeks advice on cable sizes or other matters pertaining to 12v electrics they would be better referred to writings such as John & Val's Electricity for Camping blog on this site or other publications by recognized authors.

Cheers
Allan

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AnswerID: 439974

Follow Up By: KenInPerth - Monday, Dec 27, 2010 at 23:24

Monday, Dec 27, 2010 at 23:24
Alan
Thanks for your input and you are entitled to your opinion

If you can get the moderator of this forum to remove it in it's entirity then I am happy for that to happen. Please do so. If it is "technically incorrect" as you say then it should not exist. Maybe you could post a "technically correct" article telling people why they should choose a particular cable size for their application - you are obviously qualified to do so if you can judge what I am saying as "technically incorrect" and obviously I have been doing my job with incorrect knowledge these 40 odd years.

The article you refer to is a good article and provides a lot of good information - but it still does still not explain to the DIY'er why they would use a particular size cable, or how they would determine with some science what size cable they should use.

You are actually criticising me for "bad advice" when basically the people posting arguments against what I was saying were basically saying that "my wires aren't melting so what is the problem".

Well I will leave it up to you and everyone else to believe the misleading advertising and marketing that is out there as you like. You as others have interpreted it as a discussion on existing installations (which it was not) - so I added the non-technical point of "if the wiring is not melting then you have it right" - you cannot dispute that this is not correct for existing installations. And it was not advice - it was a statement.

I personally would hate to see anyone lose their RV due to fire caused by under rated installation of under rated cable - so if that is being "ridiculous" then so be it.

So to all those DIY'ers out there who are confused or concerned about what size cable to use for that next wiring job - go and see an auto electrician and get it done by them.

Good luck all - I will no longer post on this thread.
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