Where does my power leak out?

Submitted: Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 15:21
ThreadID: 83404 Views:3565 Replies:15 FollowUps:14
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Looking for some guidance as 12v electrics have got me beat once again.

My trusty '94 LR Defender has a Piranha dual battery setup, never missed a beat just does what it's supposed to.

About 2 months ago jumped in to a flat battery, (the car only gets driven once a week or sometimes once a fortnight).

Ok fair enough although the batteries were only replaced 6 months ago.
Put on charger next day good as gold.

Two weeks later same thing. Dud battery? Take then out charge them check after a week, full 12.8v.

So assume there must be a leak in the car, nothing is turned on apart from the little red LED on the radio. No bare wires touching anywhere I can find.

Where do I go from here? What do I check where do I look?
Any pointers much appreciated.

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Reply By: farouk - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 15:52

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 15:52
Hi,
Would suggest so as to determine if the vehicle has a power leakage first I would disconnect positive lead from battery and using a multimeter with setting on amps
Place one end on the lead and the other end on battery terminal, if it has a 0.00 reading it obviously has no leakage via car electrics, if it has you will have to start by removing fuses and test again and again and again!!!! do not forget to disconnect any little toys (electrical) you may have in vehicle
Obviously if you still do not find the cause there you will have to blame battery.
Farouk
AnswerID: 440574

Reply By: vk1dx - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 15:53

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 15:53
I would grab the receipt and take the car back to where you got the batteries. Get them to test the batteries. If they fail then I would pull the receipt out and suggest they replace them.

Phil
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Reply By: Notso - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 15:55

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 15:55
I suppose you could disconnect each cable in turn from the battery and put an amp meter in the circuit to try and identify which circuit is "leaking".

Could well be the battery isolator.
AnswerID: 440577

Reply By: Member - bungarra (WA) - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 16:03

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 16:03
not sure if the test is that simple ?

I have repeated problems with my Hilux........sits more than say 2 weeks..flat battery........I have used a clamp meter and one by one tested every circuit that I am aware that is connected to the battery....cannot find any current flow........

Replaced the battery twice with others I have .....same thing.........bench testing the same batteries removed after 6 or so weeks and they are still ok !

The last time the battery was flat and I jump started it (making sure of no spike and with protection in place)...the alarm and central locking no longer work..now I am wondering if that damn device has a current drain more than I would have expected?..and maybe that might have fixed it if the battery survives longer than normal before it goes flat

I am completely satisified that the batteries are ok...there has to be acurrent drain somwhere.....

has me beat

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Reply By: Member - Rob S (NSW) - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 16:04

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 16:04
Hi Troppo

+1 on what farouk said.
Or get an auto electrician to check it
A mate of mine holden Statesman battery was always goin flat ended up being the car radio /cd player had a short in it. found buy the auto electrician.
He put a test meter in line with the battery and disconnected things until he found what was drawing voltage.

Rob

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Reply By: - mazcan - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 16:09

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 16:09
hi gt
when you reconnect the batteries after removing them to charge up
do you get any sparks at the terminals as you reconnect
if so some thing is on apart from the led on your radio

or you have a direct short eg chaffed wire somewhere or it could be your ignition anti theft device if the vehicle has one ???????
i got caught out wth one on on my subaru in the past
disconnect the auxillary battery and piranha system see if the main battery goes flat on it's own

if it doesn't then the problem is in the piranha circuitry the problem could be in the dual battery switching device/system
hope this is of help to you
it's annoying thing to have this happen with new battery's
cheers and h-n-yr
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Follow Up By: GoneTroppo Member (FNQ) - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 16:33

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 16:33
Mazcan farouk & rob.

Have put multimeter from terminal to clamp with the meter set to 10A I get .24 and .25 alternating. so looks like a quarter of an amp going places.

Now what would draw that sort of power? guess I'm hoping to short cut the test every circuit bit.

Disconnecting the Piranha could be a bit tricky there's an awefull lot of wiring there.

As for anti theft device, It's a Land Rover Defender!!!! The whole thing is an anti theft device :-)
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Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 18:32

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 18:32
Gonetroppo, a few thoughts:

I assume the ignition and accessories were turned off when you measured that 1/4 amp. If so, you have localised your problem a bit. It is not in the battery itself. The obvious things that come to mind to draw a steady 1/4 amp are a radio (AM/FM or maybe UHF?) or a small lamp. An insulation breakdown somewhere is very unlikely to give a nice steady reading. Leakage through a crook diode in the alternator is a possible, but I'd first rule out the radio/s.

I see you're in FNQ. From what we hear it's very wet up there - do you have a trailer connector full of wet mud? That could do it too.

Suggest leave the meter connected and showing a 1/4 amp drain, then one by one take out a fuse and then put it back, until the meter drops to zero - you have found the one that's carrying that 1/4 amp. Check what's running off that fuse (you do have a manual? )

You mention that you have a red light on the radio - why is it always on? Has anything changed around the radio? Think I'd be pulling the radio out and unplugging it before going much further.

HTH

John
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Follow Up By: Allan B, Sunshine Coast, - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 19:38

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 19:38
Gone Troppo, Chose not to raise it before for fear of being accused of Product Bashing, but when I first got the Troopy it suffered from a small current drain which turned out to be the Piranha battery isolator. Chucked it out in favour of a Redarc. No more trouble.

Now I'm not saying it IS the Piranha but it COULD be!

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: redeye141 - Wednesday, Jan 05, 2011 at 08:44

Wednesday, Jan 05, 2011 at 08:44
GoneTroppo,

Try reading the amp meter on DC. AC will give you an inaccurate reading. You may find the current draw is 1.414 x AC reading.

Redeye
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Wednesday, Jan 05, 2011 at 09:03

Wednesday, Jan 05, 2011 at 09:03
Gonetroppo-now that you have found .25 amps draw, just start removing fuses til it stops.
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Follow Up By: GoneTroppo Member (FNQ) - Wednesday, Jan 05, 2011 at 10:00

Wednesday, Jan 05, 2011 at 10:00
Thanks for those ideas.

John, the red LED on the radio is a very poor mans anti theft device. it does nothing but stay on to warn potential thieves of the dire consequences of messing with the car. (I asked the LR dealer when I bought the car new and that's what I was told)

Fisho I removed All fuses (see further down thread) no change hence my problem

Redeye I "sort of" get what you're saying, but not sure how to do this. I have been using the section of the multimeter that has a A and a line with three dots underneath which I thought was DC. (maybe not)
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Follow Up By: redeye141 - Wednesday, Jan 05, 2011 at 10:11

Wednesday, Jan 05, 2011 at 10:11
Yep you are correct. you are measuring DC.

as you say next step is to remove the wire to the alternator and see if the current falls to zero.

redeye
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Follow Up By: Who was that again? (Vic) - Tuesday, Jan 11, 2011 at 16:31

Tuesday, Jan 11, 2011 at 16:31
Allan, i would beg to differ on the prescription of an improvement by fitting a Redarc. That is unless the switch wire is fitted through an accessory power voltage. I have disconnected my Redarc capability to steal 0.6a/h every hour it is connected/ Yes, they can deplete to the extent of somewhere between 14-16 a/h a day. If you are using them in something with solar power, that is quite a proportion of what you can gain. Perhaps two hours charging or more a day :-O
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Reply By: Allan B, Sunshine Coast, - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 16:09

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 16:09
There are two possibilities which you can check without using a meter.

Remove both batteries and charge them fully on the bench.
Allow the batteries to stand unconnected to anything for about 5 days.
Replace one only battery into the vehicle and connect. If there is reduced charge in the battery it indicates a faulty self-discharging battery.
Repeat this test with the other battery.

If the batteries have retained a goodly charge during the 5 days on the bench it suggests that the batteries are in reasonable state and if they then discharge when connected in the vehicle it suggests some circuit drawing current from the battery. Then you would need to do some testing with a meter..... a little more tricky and beyond the scope of this advice.

Good luck.

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 18:56

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 18:56
Allan,
Since your post, the batteries have been shown to have a 250mA parasitic drain, so looks like the batteries are unlikely to be the problem.

But as a fellow 70series owner, have you ever tried to remove the batteries from a Defender with dual batteries? I had to jump start a Defender once - it was a bit of fun! First issue was working out how to tilt/remove the front passengers seat (the owner wasn't sure) and then finding two batteries crammed under the seat. Removing them would have been a bit of work. But you could do the same with them in the vehicle.

Cheers
Phil
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Follow Up By: Allan B, Sunshine Coast, - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 20:31

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 20:31
No Phil, I haven't had my hands on a Defender and that seems fortunate? They are a good bus but do seem to have some idiosyncrasies.
I agree now about the batteries but see my FollowUp above.

Cheers
Allan

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Reply By: Roughasguts - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 17:27

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 17:27
Hi guy's this is always a problem with boats with duel batteries. seems the alternator/ regulater / rectifier can bleep it self when changing over batteries while the engine is running.

So what people end up doing is thinking there battery is being charged but it ain't so you just end up with a flat battery in a few days.

Check your charging system EG: how many volts at the battery when the engine is running should be around 14 + volts! compared to 13.2V at rest for a good battery

Cheers
AnswerID: 440586

Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 17:46

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 17:46
I was thinking along the same lines. Sometimes a diode can fail in the alternator and drain the batteries. Maybe the alternator????? Michael



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Reply By: redeye141 - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 17:51

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 17:51
Hi Mr Troppo,

Had a similar problem and after much analysis I found the Piranha dual battery setup was faulty. The electronics was on full time causing the solenoid to be operated no matter what the voltage was. This resulted in a constant current drain of 2 amps (approx). This had bugged me for ages. Now O/C.

Hope this helps
Redeye
AnswerID: 440588

Reply By: Simon C - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 17:53

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 17:53
wasn't there a guy on here 12 months ago or so......had a simalar problem with a LR and it was something to do with the car alarm system and his remote control garage door opener not alowing the LR to go in to "sleep mode" or something like that...????
AnswerID: 440589

Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 19:03

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 19:03
Yes there was.



And thats what it was.


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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 19:02

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 19:02
With 250mA coming from your battery, most likely cause is any aftermarket accessories you have. I'd be disconnecting them one by one as suggested above - and also put my money on the isolator being the cause.

This thread show the importance (in my opinion) of using a decent voltmeter in the cab of the vehicle. You can fix the problem before it trashes the batteries.c I use a digital meter (measures to 2 decimal places) via an on/off/on switch so I can monitor both batteries.
AnswerID: 440596

Reply By: Member - Stuart P (WA) - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 19:33

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 19:33
250ma may be a relay staying on ,sounds about right for the pull in of a relay. failing that what else have you forgotten that you have fitted.
AnswerID: 440600

Reply By: GoneTroppo Member (FNQ) - Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 20:15

Monday, Jan 03, 2011 at 20:15
Thanks everyone for your thoughts and suggestions.
In the morning I'll start isolating the potential culprits.

There is not much in the way of accessories fitted UHF, winch, and diff lock compressor being about it so may not be be so complicated.

The piranha isolator looks to be potentially guilty party.

Hoping it's not the alternator of course.

As someone mentioned the battery compartment when fitted with two batteries is a nightmare of skun knuckles and squashed fingers If I can still type :-) when I'm finished I'll report back with the outcome tomorrow.

Thanks again everyone

Chris


AnswerID: 440605

Reply By: GoneTroppo Member (FNQ) - Tuesday, Jan 04, 2011 at 13:31

Tuesday, Jan 04, 2011 at 13:31
I had a small win, switch in the cab to the kaymar wheel carrier light was on (but switched off at the light itself) turning it off reduced the draw to a steady .20A

I split all the cables on the battery terminal, the draw is from the main battery cable not the one going to the positive side of the piranha. Does this mean the piranha is not guilty?

I have now pulled out and replaced every single fuse still the same reading.

So does this mean it's the alternator if so how do you check it, or have I missed something else??

Chris
AnswerID: 440675

Follow Up By: Roughasguts - Tuesday, Jan 04, 2011 at 17:13

Tuesday, Jan 04, 2011 at 17:13
To check if the battery is being charged get your multi meter and check the battery voltage at the terminals with out the engine running.. should be around 13.2 volts.

Then start the engine and check the battery voltage should be over 14 plus volts, but at least more than when the engine in not running.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Murray R (VIC) - Tuesday, Jan 04, 2011 at 20:18

Tuesday, Jan 04, 2011 at 20:18
Chris
A battery drain of .20 amp is still to much, you need to have it below .o6 amp for the battery not to go flat. If the drain is on the main battery cable,you need to isolate each live battery circuit one at a time in the fuse box with the ammeter connected and watch for the drain to disappear. If it doesn't then leave your ammeter in and disconnect the main battery wire from the alternator watching that you don't short the wire or spanner when doing so. If drain goes the alternator is your problem.The .20 amp drain also sounds like the e coil current of a relay feel all the relays on the car and if any are warm its been held on so then you need to find out why.If the cars got AC pull the fuses in the battery box fuse panel and feel the relays also. As you have disconnected the main power lead to the piranha and its still there the piranha is not guilty.Any electrical unit that's drawing .20 amp will feel warm to touch so run your hand over everything. hope this might help.

Murray
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Reply By: GoneTroppo Member (FNQ) - Tuesday, Jan 11, 2011 at 15:08

Tuesday, Jan 11, 2011 at 15:08
I finally managed to get back to this job. Isn't it funny how being on holidays produces 1001 jobs that need to be done!!!

Disconnected the main alternator lead at the back of the alternator, no more discharge shows on the meter.

Guess that means the alternator is the culprit.

Question is: do I need to source another alternator or is there another alternative?
AnswerID: 441489

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