Should there be a different licence for 4wd drivers??

Submitted: Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 20:56
ThreadID: 84092 Views:4361 Replies:19 FollowUps:32
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Not criticising the young ones , but as it stands a P..Plater can jump out of his or hers little buz box and hang their p plate on a 2.5 ton 4by and off they go !!, Many could handle it, but damn sure it would be a dangerous situation with some,.


Cheers Axle
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Reply By: AGNI4x4 - Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 21:11

Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 21:11
Yes and should be one for towing also ...................... go to any boat ramp if you would like proof as to why ?
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Follow Up By: petengail - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 09:20

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 09:20
Agreed or just sit down with a stubbie in a caravan park and observe....
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Follow Up By: Member - Old Girl (QLD) - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 20:19

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 20:19
HeHe petengail, its a screamer sometimes.
I agree licence for 4x4 and towing. Only ones to say no would be ones that shouldn't have one.
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Reply By: Roughasguts - Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 21:16

Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 21:16
2.5 tonne of 4 by probably slow them down, I know it does my wife! no speeding fines since she's been driving it.

Cheers.
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Reply By: Member - Joe n Mel n kids (FNQ - Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 21:17

Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 21:17
you are right but i am trying to think back to any accident/s involving kids and 4wds, i cant recall any to be honest ............
Maybe a system where they are limited to either cc's or hp until off the "p" plates, i think motor bikes are like that, trucks are based on weights, i would dearly love to see "P" platers restricted to say 2000cc un-modifyed, that would save a lot of young lives ...
Cheers
Joe
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Follow Up By: patsproule - Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 21:32

Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 21:32
In NSW P platers are not able to drive performance vehicles - all v8's are out as are turbos. But since the average current 6 pot falcadore has 200KW I'm not exactly sure of the benefit.

Having said that, I'm currently teaching my daughter to drive, and yes..... in a 2.5T 4x4. I don think she is any less safe in it than our smaller car. She actually prefers it due to the visibility aspect. And it does tend to slow her down. Manual too.
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Follow Up By: landed eagle - Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 22:09

Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 22:09
My wife's unmodified 2000cc Lancer VR (current model) would easily hose off any of my past mid 70's Falcon V8's. Over 4000rpm they are decidedly fire-breathing.Can't imagine what an EVO must be like.
You do need a gentle right foot on a wet road. Would easily catch out an inexperienced driver.
A limit of a 2 litre motor really means nothing with the advances in engines these days. Similar argument for a 250CC limit on motorbikes.I can't believe how hard some of these little bikes will go these days straight out of the box.
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Follow Up By: Member - Joe n Mel n kids (FNQ - Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 22:24

Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 22:24
good point about 4cyls, some are very powerful and the car itself is very light also, so it seems not such a good idea after all, at least in NSW it is a start in the right direction ....
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Follow Up By: SDG - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 00:25

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 00:25
L and P plate bike riders are allowed to go up to 650cc. Its a power to weight formula. ACT they go to 1000cc I believe.

There is at least 1 250cc in each model that they are prohibited from using till fully licenced. To powerfull.
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Follow Up By: StormyKnight - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 19:13

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 19:13
A 4WD behaves differently than a sedan in emergency situations.....
A 4WD can still reach 150km/h (given enough time), its the speed that kills not the acceleration - short of spinning off a wet road due to too much peddle.
I think it should have a few extra questions in the theory part of any learners licence, so that at least they have to think about the extra weight & the issues relating to that.


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Reply By: Motherhen - Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 21:19

Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 21:19
Absolutely not Axle! Inexperienced drivers can come unstuck just as easily regardless of the size of the car, and using 4wd v 2wd as a yardstick for weight of car is erroneous. Power is another story. I do think graded on engine power similar to motor cycle licensing has merit.

Motherhen
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Follow Up By: Axle - Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 21:41

Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 21:41
G/Day MH, MMMMMM!,..I Dunno, ..Had my licence for 45yrs have driven the landrover ute, and a subaru liberty for 15yrs, and a long came the 100sToyo., Totally different thing on corners and roundabouts, a safe vehicle, but using a lot of driving experience to keep things smooth and correct judgement.


Cheers Axle.
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 22:51

Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 22:51
Gee Axle, my first car was a very small sedan - a Vauxhall Viva. Flat to the floor and it didn't go very fast. The after i got married, we purchased a V8 Monaro (not because the V8 or name was appealing but because we needed a car and it was going out at discount as a demo model at our local Holden dealers) - different as chalk and cheese, and probably a greater difference to drive than your Landrover and Landcruiser. 4wd has nothing to do with the equation.

Mh
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Follow Up By: patrolmann - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 16:32

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 16:32
Hi Guys,
Well I have personal experience with my 17 year old son. Travelling at 70 ks in and 80ks zone came around a sweeping bend on a dirt road, lost control and slammed into a tree head on. Wrote off his 10 day old car.
Police said no charges will be laid as the slide marks show he was doing well under the signed limits.
The officer said simple inexperience on a dirt road and I thank god he walked away from that.
I honestly believe if they stopped worrying so much about teaching learner drivers how to reverse park and spent time with them doing high speed (100)ks driving and maybe some vehicle control training on a skid pan there would be a lot less deaths on the roads.
In some European countries learners must be able to regain control of a vehicle on a skid pan before they pass their Licence.
My son was taken on one driving lesson up to 100ks and that's it.
I taught him how to overtake on country roads and gave him my experiences but seeing as most kids seem to be dying on high speed country roads I think there is a lot more training that can be done
cheers
Patrolman
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 16:44

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 16:44
Hi Patrolman

Glad it worked out well for your teenager. Really, the sooner they learn that lesson (and writing off first car that they may be paying off from a small wage is part of the big lesson), the less damage likely to be done. Those who have their first accident further down the track when they are travelling with more confidence and speed often do far more damage to themselves and/or passengers.

Skid training would be good, particularly for the girls who are more reluctant than to go out and play at doing circles and the like than the boys.

In reality, they only start to gain experience when they get out there on there own (very scary for the parent), so the best way is to find a slippery mudflat, set them up then go home. They also need to learn to be aware of what others are doing around them, not just think they will be fine because they are obeying the traffic rules - this is where most youngsters seem to come unstuck, and that sixth sense is something we learn with experience.

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Reply By: cocky - Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 21:42

Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 21:42
....especially the more experienced!!! Some who have a 60 year unblemished driving record are just plain scary. Then they buy the big 4wd to protect their wives should they have a crash, which is highly probable in the confines of the supermarket car park. I'm terrified when I see some of them coming. LOL (that stands for Little Old Lady)
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Reply By: Bonz (Vic) - Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 22:20

Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 22:20
A total load of palaver, a licence is a licence up to 3 ton. Some people should have to get licenses to breathe I reckon.
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 11:06

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 11:06
Agree 100% raise the competency of all drivers, I would rather see a P plater in a 4by than a zippy little buzzbox driving erratically.

It is no different to a boat licence, the licence you get for a tinny is the same one that allows you to drive a boat up to 100 foot long.

People need to learn to act responsibly and according to their abilities and skill levels not to the piece of paper that they have acquired mostly through a theory examination.
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Reply By: Harry and Ann (WA) - Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 22:32

Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 22:32
Don't think you have to worry to much most p platers wouldn't be seen in a 4wd truck. to slow .
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Follow Up By: Hairs & Fysh - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 19:26

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 19:26
I would be to quick to say that, my near 9 year old son has his eye on my old Cruiser, Hmmm I think I have a fight on my hands in about 7 years.

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Follow Up By: Member - Old Girl (QLD) - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 20:25

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 20:25
Jon we have two expecting us to keep our old girl.
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Reply By: Rob J - Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 23:58

Thursday, Feb 03, 2011 at 23:58
Maybe a 4x4 should be classified as a medium rigid vehicle; everyone who owns a 4x4 has to get an MR licence. You can't drive a medium rigid on a car licence.
We would all know that the person driving a 4x4 has at least the experience to get that licence.
Include the 4x4 cars as well so there is no mistake.
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 00:55

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 00:55
Why Rob? I know you are agreeing with Axle's initial post, but why should 4wd be different to a sedan licence? Some sedans are bigger than some 4wds, and can be far easier to reach high speeds in. We are not talking about driving off road here - licences are for on road. Most people drive their 4wd on road in 2wd anyway - so where is the difference to a 2wd wagon or sedan? MR is required for driving a vehicle of more than 8 tonne - that has nothing to do with 4wd cars.

Mh

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Reply By: SDG - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 00:10

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 00:10
I had my last Patrol hit 180km once. Not the most stable at that speed.

It was stolen by a kid in my care. The police say he was doing 160 when he hit the telegraph pole.

Not all fourbys are slow. A mates Prado keeps up with me when i'm on the bike. Both in takeoff and cruising speed.
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Reply By: Member Brian (Gold Coast) - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 07:39

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 07:39
I definitely agree! But probably for different reasons.

Age may not necessarily be one of them. But if it was, I'm more inclined to think that the retirees are the ones who should be looking at an "upgraded" license. Some oldies have spent their lives catching the bus/train to and from work and only drive to family picnics on weekends. Then at retirement, a new 4WD and Caravan appears in the yard and away they go, safe in the knowledge that they have never had an accident. We've all seen them drive, haven't we?

So that's one of my thoughts, but not necessarily the uppermost one.

I believe that a 4WD license should ONLY be obtained after doing recognized driver training. Personally I have done courses, but would HAPPILY do more in the interests of obtaining such a license.

My reason is this; I have seen/read/heard many stories of people buying a 4WD, and immediately stocking it with snatch straps, shackles, chains etc... and take off for a weekend of off road adventure. I have questioned friends who have done this, and they have told me..... "How hard can it be?" or "I'm OK, my mate at work explained to me how to drive up mountains"

Scary, isn't it? Remember only a few months back a teenaged boy was in the back seat of a 4WD, looking out the back window whilst a snatch recovery was being carried out, and the tie down point let go, sending a shackle through his head and killing him?

That's why I think that there should be a separate license. Even for old mate who buys a 4WD "so the family is safer in the event of an accident but never intends to take it off road"...... then one day he decides he wants to try it out. At the very least he will have had some training on the do's/don'ts of 4WD'ing and can't fend off responsibility with the old "I didn't know but thought I did" routine...... and maybe would have saved someones life.

And if just ONE life gets saved, doesn't that make it worthwhile?

Just my opinion folks, you don't have to agree with me.


Cheers

Brian



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Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 10:19

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 10:19
" We've all seen them ,haven't we ?". Sure have. Bloody nuisance's. I only hope that when you spot them Brian you manage to pull them over, so as to pass on some of the vast amount of driving expertise you have acquired over the years at these driver training courses. :)
Cheers Dave.
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Follow Up By: ob - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 15:51

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 15:51
Now come on Dave, play nice, you know most of the vehicle carnage happens in 4WD,s and off road.


Or was that 2WD,s on road, can't seem to remember, must be getting old

ob
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Follow Up By: Member Brian (Gold Coast) - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 19:08

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 19:08
Like I said, it was just my opinion, which is kinda what Axle was asking for.
If you don't agree with me, I don't care, just like I don't expect you to care whether you agree with me.

Facts are facts, and people have died off roading...... usually, but not always, as a result of incorrect off road techniques.

Like I said, if you don't agree with me, that's your choice.




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Reply By: vk1dx - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 07:52

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 07:52
Maybe the young fellow who was killed on Fraser a few months back would be alive after a 4WD course was attended with recovery as a module. And there are other safety things as well.

I vote yes provided it includes recovery etc. It may stop the "tourist" deaths as well.

Phil
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Follow Up By: Member Brian (Gold Coast) - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 19:10

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 19:10
Well said!


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Reply By: Robin Miller - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 09:37

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 09:37
Already far to much ineffective and ignored legislation out there Axle , each bit reduces our own personal responsibility and passes it on to an automatic process which further weakens our responibility.
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 16:44

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 16:44
Had to read it twice....but I agree.

Cheers, The Landy
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Follow Up By: Hairs & Fysh - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 17:27

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 17:27
I also agree Robin,
"responsibility" like "common sense" are becoming words from an ancient past language.

As an example, the Bullbar removal proposal, No responsibility from those that step into the path of a vehicle no matter where. Anyway, that's being argued in another thread.






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Reply By: Alloy c/t - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 09:42

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 09:42
Power to weight ratio grading would be better for any licence under medium rigid , and an endorsement for towing , absolutely ridiculous that any fool can buy a vehicle built on essentially a small truck chassis and hitch up a 20+ foot van without training and endorsement and take to the highways and byways.
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Reply By: Capt. Wrongway - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 09:48

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 09:48
We are already too regulated. Over licenced, over taxed, over governed, over controlled .. when will it end! You will never control stupidity! The only way to impact on people's actions is to make them responsible for the consequences .
Capt.
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 16:46

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 16:46
So true Capt.
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Follow Up By: Member Brian (Gold Coast) - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 19:11

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 19:11
Yes!!!!



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Reply By: cycadcenter - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 10:19

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 10:19
So where do you draw the line................is it a 4WD or AWD, do you need a special license to drive a Subaru Forrester.

While we're at it lets introduce a license to drink alcohol,

Or maybe a license to have kids and get the baby bonus

Trouble is we are over regulated now, the kids can't do anything to learn the consequenses of their actions.

Someone mentioned the kid being killed in the backseat near Hervey Bay a few weeks ago, well the area in the forest had just had 5-6" of rain that day and some half brain adults decided to go four wheeling, no number of laws can regulate stupidity

Bruce
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 16:50

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 16:50
And Bruce has said it too. "no number of laws can regulate stupidity"

Lessons must be learnt by consequences.
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Reply By: Dave(NSW) - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 10:20

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 10:20
I would be more worried that a Red P Plater can drive a hire mini-bus with up to 11 people in it except between 11pm & 5am.
Cheers Dave.
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Follow Up By: Hairs & Fysh - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 19:19

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 19:19
As you've come to know Dave, the RTA are not accountable to anything or body.
They wont have a problem with this, but as soon as there is an incident, they will change the regulation while never admitting it was wrong.

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Reply By: SDG - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 13:41

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 13:41
Why not just give better driving courses for learners in general?
Ive seen driving instructors that should not be on the road.

While learning they should also include some basic mechanical skills, like changing a tyre, checking water/oil etc.
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 16:51

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 16:51
Isn't that what parents are for?
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Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 17:02

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 17:02
No sorry but parents are there to blame the government when little Johnny has wrapped himself around a tree at 180kph on a wet road and they blame the road and say its the governments place to fix it.

Get real. (not u Motherhen)

I agree with the maintenance bit. MY son despite me showing him how has no desire to check oi,l change tyres or do anything to maintain the car I bought him.

He wont get another one thats for sure.


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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 17:09

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 17:09
Yep, that's the attitude our society is heading towards Graham. Teach them responsibility, and consequences for own their actions.

Mh
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Follow Up By: SDG - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 17:44

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 17:44
My 10 year old son can
Change a car tyre (with help in regards to strength. Nuts/weight of wheels, etc)
Check radiator/ oil level.
Do an oil change (again with help in strength issues)

If a young child can learn, i'm sure an older teenager can do it.

poor maintanence results in poor performance, which can result in accidents.
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 18:08

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 18:08
Sounds wise SDG. My boys would have jumped in and changed the tyre for me at that age (i always carried a short piece of pipe to extend the spanner leverage - even if i had to jump on it).

Mh
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Reply By: Member - Jack - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 17:38

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 17:38
It will not make one iota of difference beyond creating another revenue stream for Government and more bureaucrats.

It's the same for disqualifying drivers ... many just continue to drive and hope they don't get caught. From what I have seen in the papers, you can do that and get caught 4 or 5 times before the courts even consider a custodial sentence. Play the percentages.

Jack
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Reply By: Member - Tanka (NSW) - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 19:08

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 19:08
I owned a few vehicles when on P's, including 2 4wd's. Yes they handled differently, but that is all. It took the same adjusting as when I sold them to drive a normal sedan again.
How many people here had completed driver training courses before they purchased a 4x4?
There are good drivers and bad drivers out there irrespective of age and gender.
If you get hit on a pedestrian crossing by a 2.5 ton vehicle I couldn't imagine it feeling any worse than being hit by a 1.8ton vehicle at 80km/h.
If a test is the way people want to go, make it retrospective and have ALL current 4x4 owners complete skidpan training, training on correctly loading a vehicle, towing safely, off road work and rudimentary repairs before they next head down to the shops.
Courses are great, but there is only one way to gain experience.

Cheers Tanka


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Follow Up By: Member - Graham H (QLD) - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 19:29

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 19:29
Many many years ago in the 50's when I was learning to drive my cousin had a 34 V8 coupe.

We used to put smooth tyres on it and take it out in the wet paddocks and learn how to control skids. Didnt take long to master it.

Then I lived at the end of 79 MILES of windy gravel road into Milford Sound In NZ
At the time I owned a 54 Austin A70 Hereford skiinny crossplys and all.

The most horrible car on gravel you could imagine.

We used to thrash it in and out of there in great time.

Never went off the road and when we got to the tar seal one morning my wife

said "Thank god for that I'm sick of looking out the side window to see the road"

Certainly taught us how to handle a car.

How many kids today even start to learn that sort of stuff.

Its burnouts around traffic islands these days, frequently ending up against a pole.

Why, because they do exactly the wrong thing and hit the brakes.

LOL



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Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 22:24

Friday, Feb 04, 2011 at 22:24
Took my first licence test in a A70 Brian, and failed. Could not reverse park it.
Policeman jumped in to show me how to do it. After 3 attempts told me to come back with a different vehicle.
Dave.
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