UHF CB compatibility with new 80 channel radios
Submitted: Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 16:00
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Mike DiD
In the next six months UHF CBs with new channels will appear on the market. They won't actually have 80 channels, because 5 are reserved for Telemetry (22,23) or future use (61,62,63).
You can now buy 40 channel sets which can be upgraded to the new 80 channel standard when it becomes legal to use the new 75 channels.
It will be legal to keep on using existing 40 channel radios for at least the next 5 years.
You will be able to use 40 channel radios to talk to 80 channel radios, but -
- listening on a 40 channel radio to transmissions from an 80 channel radio will give much quieter audio level.
- listening on an 80 channel radio to transmissions from a 40 channel radio will give distorted audio, unless you get them to speak quietly !
Listening on a 40 channel radio, you will get interference from people operating on the new channels. e.g. if you're listening on 20 you will get interference from people transmitting on 59 and 60.
It will still be legal to sell 40 channel for a while - one Australian manufacturer has said they can change all models to 80 channels within 12 months. One importer has said they need three years to change all models !!!
Reply By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 16:09
Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 16:09
I bet the manufacturers are rubbing their hands together, they would be all for it!!! Michael
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Reply By: Mike DiD - Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 16:12
Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 16:12
When considering radios that can be upgraded to the new 80 channel plan, keep in mind that there are two levels of compatibility that are technically possible.
1. Narrowband receive - the new standard requires receivers to have better selectivity - if listening on 20, it must not pick up signals on adjacent channels 59 or 60. This cannot be done with sets that were only designed for 25kHz channel spacing, even though they may have the addition 35 channels programmed in.
2. Wideband receive - existing 40 channel CBs or commercial radios only designed for 25kHz channel spacing may be able to have the additional 35 channels programmed in, but they will have the same problem of adjacent channel interference e.g. if you're listening on 20 you will get interference from people transmitting on 59 and 60.
When buying a radio that promises upgradability to the new channels, be sure to
check if it has the narrowband selectivity for 12,5 kHz channel spacing !
All radios designed specifically for the new 80 channel plan, must have Narrowband receive.
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Reply By: Member - Tezza Qld - Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 16:35
Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 16:35
Hi Mike
We have done some testing with these channels and whilst some small interference was noted on the 40 channel set tuned to channel 20 for instance, and channels 59 or 60 were used to transmit, but it seemed to be a matter of how close the radios were together.
We used a GME 3440 as the 40 channel unit and 2 icom 400,s for the 80 channel units. Interestingly was when one Icom was used as a 40 channel set, and the other as an 80 channel set, no interference at all was found between the Icoms.
I think that the levels or audio between radios is going to be related to the distance of tranmission and the out put of the radio. As we know the aerial has some bearing on this.
Will be interesting when it all comes into place. Our testing was purely for our own benifit as a Tour operator , to shortcut any problems we may face with communications during tours by some people using new radios and some using the older ones.
Cheers Teza
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Follow Up By: Mike DiD - Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 16:39
Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 16:39
I would expect the IC400s to have filters with steeper skirts than the GMEs.
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 21:44
Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 21:44
Quote - "I think that the levels or audio between radios is going to be related to the distance of tranmission and the out put of the radio. As we know the aerial has some bearing on this."
Not so, UHF CB has FM modulation. The effect you are referring to only happens on AM.
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Reply By: Polaris - Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 16:43
Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 16:43
Mike - we are using 3 Icom 400Pro radios and 2 Icom IC F-221 Radios that have all been programmed with the new narrow band channels and none are experiencing the audio level variations or distorsion that you are quoting.
All the stations who answer our 'radio
check' calls report "loud and clear".
We use the new Ch60 (with CTCSS) and never get any interference from 20 or 21.
So far so good and it is nice to have some channels with nobody on them.
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Follow Up By: Mike DiD - Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 17:24
Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 17:24
I would hope that Professional grade radios programmed with UHF channels would perform better than consumer grade UHF radios.
It is illegal to use anything other than the original 40 channels until the regulations are changed.
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Follow Up By: Mike DiD - Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 17:28
Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 17:28
If people do not notice any reduced audio level, you MUST be still be using wideband channel deviation.
Just programming in Ch 60, does NOT make it a narrowband channel on transmit or receive.
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Follow Up By: Member - Tezza Qld - Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 19:02
Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 19:02
Mike I now understand what you are saying about different band widths.
Is it possible to change a wideband radio to narrowband as in the Icom 400 pro ?
cheers Teza
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Follow Up By: Member - Tezza Qld - Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 19:16
Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 19:16
Whoops sorry .
Just checked the programming. No worries.
Cheers Teza
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Follow Up By: Polaris - Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 20:48
Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 20:48
Mike - both the Icom 400Pro and also the Icom IC-F221 can be programmed with either 25KHz (W) or 12.5Khz (N) bandwidth using the programing software.
The only channels that we have programmed as 25Khz (W) are the two telemetry/telecommand channels - 22 and 23. The rest are all 12.5Khz (N)
This is in line with the new standard AS/NZS 4365:2011. This Standard was prepared by the joint Standards Australia/ Standards New Zealand Committee RC-006, Radiocommunications Equipment - General, to supercede AS/NZS 4365:2002, Radiocommunications Equipment used in the UHF Citizen Band Radio Service.
Legal or not we are using a number of these units - as are many others.
I will reitterate that we are not experiencing reduced audio performance with the Icom equipment.
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Follow Up By: Polaris - Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 21:10
Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 21:10
Donald Robertson from the Australian Communications & Media Authority said in a statement to UHF CB Australia "The ACMA will consider making the new UHF CB standard soon as practicable after publication and public availability of AS/NZS 4365:2010." and then went on to say "It is proposed that the ACMA’s standard will commence on the day after it is registered on the Federal Register of Legislative Instruments which would reasonably be expected to be in late January"
The standard AS/NZS 4365:2010 has since been superceded by AS/NZS 4365:2011 - which is available for purchase from Standards Australia or Standards New Zealand
here.
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Follow Up By: Mike DiD - Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 21:23
Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 21:23
- "Legal or not we are using a number of these units"
I wouldn't be boasting about it here - the
Terms of Use of this site state "including without limitation any transmissions constituting or encouraging conduct that would constitute a criminal offence, give rise to civil liability or otherwise violate any applicable law."
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Follow Up By: Mike DiD - Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 21:31
Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 21:31
Don't confuse the Standard for the radios with the Class Licence for Operating them.
No manufacturer will start to build radios until the standard is final, which it now is.
The closing date for
feedback on the "Proposed variations to the Radiocommunications (Citizen Band Radio Stations) Class Licence 2002" which includes operation on 80 channels, isn't until March 4th.
Until these changes become law, the previous 40 channel Class Licence is the law of the land.
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Monday, Feb 28, 2011 at 08:00
Monday, Feb 28, 2011 at 08:00
A smart way to program a radio such as a IC400 or IC 221 would be to program Channels 1 - 40 as wideband and 41 - 80 as narrow.
That way you will keep 100% compatibility with old users and can use 41 - 80 for new radios.
Maybe not legal though. But then, neither is a reprogrammed 400 pro or 221 anyway.
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Follow Up By: Polaris - Monday, Feb 28, 2011 at 12:29
Monday, Feb 28, 2011 at 12:29
Boobook - as stated in my previous post, all our Icoms are programmed with the new 80 channel arrangement (77 channels actually) at 12.5 kHz (N) passband EXCEPT channels 22 and 23 which are at 25kHZ (W).
I will say it again for those who didn't comprehend the previous post - we are NOT having any compatability issues either communicating with operators of 40 CH (1-40) equipment or any of the new 41-80 reprogrammed radios.
Others have suggested that there will be compatability problems - but we certainly aren't experiencing this with the Icoms.
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Monday, Feb 28, 2011 at 14:49
Monday, Feb 28, 2011 at 14:49
Polaris, with all respect, you may not have seen issues but others have, including myself. A narrow band transmission can have a lower volume in many receivers inc hand held ones.
I did comprehend your post, but don't I don't wish to rely on your testing which is appears to be incomplete. No matter how many times you repeat yourself, you still get the same results.
????
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Follow Up By: Mike DiD - Monday, Feb 28, 2011 at 16:45
Monday, Feb 28, 2011 at 16:45
When all the communications industry experts gathered to formulate the new regulations, they agreed that the new Repeater channels (41, 71 etc) must not be released for 6 years, because this time had to allowed before existing Repeaters are upgraded to narrowband. If they did not wait, old wideband Repeaters would interfere with new Repeater channels - "It can be anticipated that, by 2017, repeaters will have completed transition to 12.5 kHz bandwidth and the additional interleaved repeater channels will become available for use."
If only Polaris had been there, to advise them that there will NEVER be any interference from old to new radios, they could have approved the new Repeater channels without delay !!!!
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Follow Up By: Mike DiD - Monday, Feb 28, 2011 at 18:43
Monday, Feb 28, 2011 at 18:43
A quote from
http://www.uhfcb.com.au/UHF-CB-Changes.php
"Will I notice any changes when talking on a new UHF CB radio with my old UHF CB radio? ?
- Yes, You will notice that the sound will be distorted but you will be able to talk to each other"
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Follow Up By: Mike DiD - Monday, Feb 28, 2011 at 18:49
Monday, Feb 28, 2011 at 18:49
A quote from
www.uhfcb.com.au/80-Channel-UHF-Information.php
"It is illegal to operate a UHF CB radio on any frequency not allocated under the current 40 channel Class License.
Following is the Official New Channel Allocation list, This is currently for reference use only and will not come into effect until the Class License changes"
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Reply By: Diesel 'n Dust - Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 17:27
Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 17:27
So does that mean I chuck out my GME TX4400 and purchase an upgrade??
Matthew
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Follow Up By: Mike DiD - Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 17:31
Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 17:31
You can keep on using it for at least 5 years as you have.
The TX4400 is not upgradable.
The TX3100 and TX3340 will be User upgradeable, while the TX3220, TX3420 and TX3440 will be Dealer upgradeable.
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Sunday, Feb 27, 2011 at 13:23
Sunday, Feb 27, 2011 at 13:23
Mike I think GME's stance as per the memo they issued to dealers on Feb 1 is that SOME TX 3100, TX 3340, TX 4400, and TX 4600 models will be upgradable, including all of those sold with an 80 ch sticker, and SOME TX 3220, TX3420, TX 3440's will be upgradable at the dealer, inc all sold with the sticker.
It depends on when they were made as to the upgradability, and the process.
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Monday, Feb 28, 2011 at 21:20
Monday, Feb 28, 2011 at 21:20
Hmm, I looks like you are right Mike, GME does seem to have dropped any reference to the upgradability of the 4400 on their website.
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Reply By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 18:30
Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 18:30
Hi Mike
I was speaking to an Australian manufacturer just the other day (GME) when we received information at work about the upgrades. Not all of heir units are reprogrammable unfortunately. One such model that is, was the TX3440, which I have had for over 3 years. The down side is that it will only be capable on the very late manufactured unit after certain serial numbers.
As my unit was an early unit it can not be converted, so I will be one of many thousands of people that will have to upgrade in the near future. Just as well I can buy one at a very good price.
Cheers
Stephen
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Reply By: Mike DiD - Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 20:45
Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 20:45
From Manufacturer/Importer websites -
GME
- "As from December 2010 production onwards, a number of our current 40 channel wideband radios will be able to be upgraded to the new 80 channel narrowband standard. These radios are easily identifiable by the upgradeable sticker on the packaging and by the serial number with the prefix 012, 101, 102 and103. All radios with the serial number of 011 (November 2010) or earlier are not user or dealer upgradeable via software.
The TX3100 and TX3340 will be User upgradeable, while the TX3220, TX3420 and TX3440 will be Dealer upgradeable"
UNIDEN
- " The UH7760NB (also UH7700NB) is 77 Channel Ready* making it one of the first UHF mobiles in the market available and user upgradeable for free when the ACMA standard is published early in the year."
- ". The built-in AVS circuitry allows for an automatic volume stabiliser detecting narrowband and wideband transmission automatically adjusting incoming audio to comparable levels."
Note that the current draft standard only provides for 75 voice channels, so UNIDEN will have to change this to make their sets legal.
ICOM
- we'll have to change our radios ???
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Follow Up By: Isuzumu - Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 21:33
Saturday, Feb 26, 2011 at 21:33
Is there going to be benefits with the the new 80 ch radios, like better transmitting distance or will we just be getting more channels? letting more idiots broadcast on more frequencies seems all a bit pointless really to me
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Reply By: Mike DiD - Sunday, Feb 27, 2011 at 13:44
Sunday, Feb 27, 2011 at 13:44
None of the other manufacturers so far are offering Handhelds compatible with the new standard.
Today I was talking with the Yaesu-Vertex rep who said that they will soon be offering the VX426 with the new 75 channels. The VX426 is a Commercial specification radio which has capability to store 128 commercial channels as well as CB channels. (Like the Icom IC400Pro)
I didn't ask him whether older VX426s can be reprogrammed - it would always be possible to take up 75 of the 128 commercial channels for the new CB channels and leave the 40 wideband channels in it. The VX426 can do proper narrowband send and receive.
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Follow Up By: Member - Tanka (NSW) - Monday, Feb 28, 2011 at 19:37
Monday, Feb 28, 2011 at 19:37
Just thought I would add that as a recent purchaser of the Vertex 2200U, similiar to icom 400pro, it seems from the specifications to be compatible with the 12.5 stepping.
Cheers Tanka.
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