Travelling weights!!

Submitted: Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 11:53

ThreadID: 85135 Views:8569 Replies:5 FollowUps:12

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John P

Does anyone have issues with their payload on the caravan? The Kedron topender we want to get will give us a payload of about 410kg which isn't much especially with two kids and travelling Australia indefinately! The caravan has 3 100lt tanks so if travelling with them full will only allow 110kg for everything else. My question is do you travel with water in your tanks? or do you travel with just enough water in potable and non potable tank to get you out of trouble if need be? If you want to go bush, to me you will want to fill tanks so there will be times we will be over weight. Does anyone else have these issues?? If so, how do you get around it??

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Reply By: JAX W - Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 13:27

Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 13:27

Hullo John P

I tow a 7.15m van with a 200 Series Landcruiser. My solution has been to increase the GVM of the Cruiser from 3300kg to 3800kg (Lovells GVM upgrade) and increase the Towing capacity from 3500kg to 3850kg (Specialised Vehicles upgrade). Both can be completed by Specialised Vehicles, Orangeville, but I was not aware of options available when this was completed about two years ago.

I also upgraded the ATM of our van from 3500kg to 4320kg. Obviously I cannot legally tow more than the 3850kg.

Make sure you discuss the ATM question with Kedron before you order it. Ensure you get a high enough ATM to allow you to carry what you require legally.

I hope this helps.

Jack

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Follow Up By: John P - Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 14:18

Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 14:18

Thanks for the info. Have thought of all of this and am currently looking into upgrades. Kedrons have said they can up the GVM of the caravan to match the vehicle, as they do with people with F350 etc. Have looked into Landcruiser upgrade also. Will try and get done pre rego as it is apparently cheaper and easier. What do you think of the lovells GVM upgrade? What is your ride like with and without caravan attached?? I don't want a harse ride when caravan is not attached!! Do you run airbags in your rear suspension??
From the info I have gathered about vehicle GVM upgrades, I have found that when you add the upgrade to your vehicle, you have to lose that weight off of your caravan. ( Rob Peter to pay Paul) The other I have to ask you is do you know your landcruiser GCM. (Gross combined mass) Apparently this can't be changed so know matter what you upgrade to, you can not legally tow more than your gross combined mass. Total weight of your vehicle and caravan. For example, 76 series landcruiser GCM is 6500kg. ( GVM of vehicle + max towing capacity of vehicle = GCM) If you have done GVM upgrade the GCM doesn't change, which I thought it should!! If i was to upgrade landcruiser to say GVM of 3500kg and the van stays at 3500kg, the GCM will be 7000kg and therefore illegal. Not sure if you are aware of this as you maybe illegal.
The increase of towing capacity i have not heard of. What was involved? I rang Hayman Reese to see if they had higher rated towbars for landcruisers other than 3500kg. They said no. They do for F350 etc. So interested in what they did to yours and how much it set you back. Look forward to talking some more. Cheers. John

FollowupID: 721094

Follow Up By: JAX W - Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 15:33

Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 15:33

Hullo John P

I am unsure about situations in other States, but in NSW, GCM is not an issue!! It is not referred to in Toyota or RTA documentation. I believe some people make those claims about "GCM", but they may well be an urban myth. Check with your Registration authorities and vehicle manufacturer.

All our upgrades are complianced by separate Engineers, endorsed by RTA and our Insurers. I have Engineers Certificates, Compliance Plates and Registration papers all thoroughly completed. Our Insurance companies (separate for Cruiser and Van) also have fully endorsed the upgrades.

I have a Reese (USA) hitch receiver rated at 5400kg with 540kg ball weight rating fitted to the Cruiser. I started with a 70mm towball rated at 4500kg, but have changed to a 6000kg rated McHitch, which is an improvement. I purchased the high capacity hitch and WDH bars etc from Suncoast Towbars near Bushtracker.

I have also strengthened the tow hitch receiver on the Cruiser as the standard holes were wearing/enlarging. I have had bushes made up and welded into place to increase the load bearing surfaces from 6.00mm to 13.00mm on each side. A great improvement!

There was significant cost involved in completing these upgrades, but I would have saved a lot if I had been aware that Specialised Vehicles could have completed both GVM and Towing Capacity upgrades together.

You should be able to get Kedron to increase the ATM to the maximum without any additional cost, I would imagine.

I would much prefer to modify the Cruiser for this job than purchase an F-truck or Chevy. I will keep the Cruiser for at least 350,000km so I will receive value for the work completed. I have travelled 86,000km so far. Also if you prefer a certain van then you know there are steps you can take to make towing a safe and legal process.

I should mention that the Lovells GVM upgrade is really good. It was completed in May, 2009 when the Cruiser had travelled 46,000km. The ride is more firm, but quite comfortable. It handles far better than standard suspension both with and without van in tow. The rear lift was 50mm and front 13mm. With van in tow the vehicle sits nice and level and does not require alteration to lights. The Cruiser is a GXL without KDSS. I could not see the value in that!

I hope this helps.

Jack

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Follow Up By: John P - Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 16:13

Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 16:13

Thanks Jack. Will give specialised vehicles a ring next few days. The Kedron weights are not an issue as they said it can be altered easy. Just the vehicle upgrade that has been bothering me. GCM is interesting. If other states don't seem to worry, well that will suit me fine as we are in SA and once we head off, will be lucky to come back after seeing what else is out there. I think so long as I know the van weight and get the tow vehicle up to match it, i should be right.

FollowupID: 721106

Follow Up By: Member - John B2 (VIC) - Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 16:27

Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 16:27

John P

You are correct re if you increase the GVM, it does not increase the GCM

Jack

Toyota specification documentation for Landcruiser 200 series

(4) Gross Combined Mass (GCM) is the total
permissible combined weight of the vehicle
and trailer/caravan being towed including
occupants, fuel & cargo. Kerb, tare and
payload weights are nominal and will vary
depending on options and accessories

http://www.toyota.com.au/TWR/content/static/88762.pdf?WT.ac=LC200SpecificationsPDF

Cheers,
John

FollowupID: 721110

Reply By: John and Lynne - Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 14:51

Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 14:51

A payload of 410kg seems ridiculous for that type of van! Rather than spending a lot of money on modifications all round perhaps you could investigate other manufacturers of caravans. There are other vans with very good reputations for rough roads who can do better than that eg our Sunland Patriot has a payload of 850kgs and an excellent off road warranty. This model probably would not suit your need for a family van but Sunland will make all sorts of designs. There are plenty of other manufacturers who could do better for you. You could also post a query on Caravaners Forum (caravenersforum.com) where there are quite a number of people travelling long term with kids in various vans. Good luck! Lynne

AnswerID: 448844

Follow Up By: John P - Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 16:07

Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 16:07

Tanks for your input. I have done months of research and to me there are only two real contenders for full offroad caravans and that is Kedron and Bushtracker. To me, you wont find a better built offroad carava,n but with that comes the weight. There service is unbelievable and the caravans have been made/tested and improved on by them selves. Watch the Gall boys DVD's. My wife and I have settled on the Kedron 21ft Topender family Caravan for number of reasons. These caravans also have the best re-sale value with some cases of people paying more than new price to be able to get a van straight away without having to wait 8-12 months. I can increase the GVM of the Kedron which will increase the payload no worries. Just will have to do upgrade on Toyota Landcruiser. Sure i can go to an F350 or similar, but don't want to move away from one of the toughest and most reliable vehicles that has stood the test of times, the landcruiser!!

FollowupID: 721102

Follow Up By: John P - Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 16:08

Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 16:08

FollowupID: 721103

Reply By: Crackles - Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 16:09

Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 16:09

You have to accept that when the Gall Bros hook up a fully optioned Kedron to a 76 wagon then throw a tinnie & outboard on top that both the van & car are well overloaded & totally illegal. The answer is simple. Buy a van with a realistic load capacity to suit your vehicle or get a truck to tow it with. My guess is the vast majority just close their eyes to the real weight and don't worry about it.
Cheers Craig.........

AnswerID: 448848

Follow Up By: splits - Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 22:17

Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 22:17

"The answer is simple. Buy a van with a realistic load capacity to suit your vehicle or get a truck to tow it with. "

I agree Craig. I was at the Millmerran Camp Oven festival a few years ago and noticed a huge off road van, I think it was a Bushtracker from memory, connected to a 4X4 dual cab Canter. All of his gear, including a tinnie, was in a closed in cab height body on the truck. It looked like the most sensible big van combination in the whole place. He could have towed it anywhere in safety without having to worry about the wheel studs snapping off, diff housings breaking, brakes fading and all the other things that can and do happen to heavily loaded family size 4bs.

FollowupID: 721171

Follow Up By: Crackles - Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 23:03

Monday, Mar 21, 2011 at 23:03

As vans have got bigger with more features & storage, the tow vehicles have mostly maxed out at around 3.5 tonne pulling & 1 tonne payload which leaves next to nothing for all the assesories & toys we like to carry. There is certainly a big hole in the market at the moment for the likes of F Trucks etc as like it or not that is what is needed to tow these vans.
Cheers Craig.................

FollowupID: 721176

Follow Up By: splits - Tuesday, Mar 22, 2011 at 22:57

Tuesday, Mar 22, 2011 at 22:57

"the tow vehicles have mostly maxed out at around 3.5 tonne pulling & 1 tonne payload"

That is about all you will ever get from a Cruiser/Patrol size vehicle. They are just a 50/50 highway and dirt road family station wagon and are not large enough or heavy enough to tow or carry any more.

I wonder what tow vehicles Kedron and Bushtracker recommend for their largest vans? Many manufacturers will tell you their advertised maximum towing capacity is the maximum possible in highway conditions only. I know Land Rover recommend a maximum off road capacity of 1500 kg for the Defender even though it is advertised as being capable of towing 3500 kg. I don't know what Toyota and Nissan recommend but I can't imagine them claiming their cars will tow 3500 kg over all surfaces, including soft sand, without seriously affecting reliability and safety.

This could mean a Cruiser or Patrol may not be capable of towing a large Kedron or Bushtracker into the worst type of country the vans are designed for.

FollowupID: 721287

Reply By: Gone Bush (WA) - Tuesday, Mar 22, 2011 at 23:06

Tuesday, Mar 22, 2011 at 23:06

John, are you looking at ordering a van or buying an existing, already built van?

My 20ft Bushtracker has a tare of 2660 and a gross of 3500kg. Four water tanks.

Another brand you might look into is Spinifex.

Both BT and Spinifex are, in my opinion only, better vans than a Kedron.

cheers

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Reply By: BenAlElla - Wednesday, Mar 23, 2011 at 23:08

Wednesday, Mar 23, 2011 at 23:08

John, I have been following your posts with interest as my wife and I are in almost an identical situation. We have a 76 series Landcruiser and are awaiting our 21 foot Kedron Topender family van (May-June delivery). Our plan is to travel around Australia for approximately 18 months to 2 years, or longer if all goes well. I can tell you that after talking with the factory in the last couple of days that Kedron have changed their 3x100 litre tanks to 1x60 drinking and 2x100 shower. The reasoning for this was to do with ball weight. We did not ask the question of whether you could still get the drinking in 100 litre or not as what they have proposed will suit our needs. Also it will allow us just a small amount more payload in the van. We plan to do a majority of free camping and when we feel the need arises we will also be carrying more drinking water in other tanks. However when we are commuting between caravan parks we will certainly be running the shower tanks on almost to empty. In my mind it seems pointless to tow dead weight around.

Also from what I have been able to research from here in Queensland any GVM upgrade, will, as you have stated have an impact on your caravan weight. We have just spent quite a bit of money on upgrading our 76 series with all that you have mentioned in other posts. Rear drawers, heavy duty suspension, long range fuel tank, diff lock, compressor and winch. We already had steel bullbar, dual batteries and a few other things that have escaped my mind. We have weighed the vehicle with passengers and full fuel, fridge and most of what we are planning to travel with, less the van and we were very surprised at the weights. I am expecting the ball weight of the van to be around 320 to 340 Kg and that will put us very close to our legal limits. We have even decided to leave behind our daughters kayak to give us just that little bit more weight allowance. All be it only 20kg, however, all the small amounts do add up. I have noticed that you are considering talking a boat loader, tinnie and outboard. I would advise you to check out all your weights early on as we are now having to do a bit of reshuffling.

This is our first caravan and we have spent a good amount of time researching this manufacture. What we are hoping is that the amount of time and money we are putting into this venture will give our daughter and ourselves memories to last a lifetime.

I hope that some of this information is of some use to you and I am happy to stand corrected on any item.

ABE.

AnswerID: 449093

Follow Up By: John P - Friday, Mar 25, 2011 at 10:29

Friday, Mar 25, 2011 at 10:29

Hi ABE. Wow!! It is so nice to finally be in contact with some one who has the same idea as us especially with the Landcruiser 76 series and the Kedron 21ft Topender. Your setup sounds exactly what we are hoping to achieve but with the custom boat loader, boat etc.

Lots of time/effort and money going into this trip, so want to get it right. Sure could have gone f350 or similar, but love the Landcruisers and want to stay with them for many reasons and you know it's gonna do the job and stand the test of time.
Sure could have gone Bushtracker or other, but Kedron stands out to us for many reasons. love their Carvans and is backed up by excellent service.

I have so many questions for you!
Kedron - Speaking with Jan in sales, she did mention that they were changing the tank size but she seemed to think I could still get 100lt if wanted. Did you go the rear or front door? What of the accesories are you getting them to put on? What colour van did you choose? How many solar panels and batt? Will you be carrying kids bike?

Landcruiser - Did you buy new? What colour? Your GVM upgrade, was it done to legally increase GVM with engineer cert? What size GVM upgrade? What brand suspension was used? Do you have airbags? What does it ride like without the van on? Who did the GVM upgrade for you and at what cost?
The steel bullbar, dual batt are they Genuine accesories? If not what brand bullbar? What brand and size winch? What brand drawer system, long range tank, fridge have you gone and who installed? What brand diff locks and front and rear?
Are you happy with all your accesories and the way your landcruiser has ended up?

As you can see, I am still researching. but there is no doubt about the Kedron. Did you look at the bushtrackers? Our Kedron is booked in for Dec but we need to sell house so that could drag out. I am going to buy 76 series through them as they give a very good deal on them.

It is very hard for us over here in SA as we can't just go and look at the vans and options. Have seen all the DVD's, getting samples sent over, speak to them every week. Their service is great and I know I will be getting the best product.

I would love to exchange email address and or phone numbers to be able to stay in contact now and when on the road. It so good to know someone with exactly same setup. Thanks again for your reply and am looking forward to speaking some more.

John

FollowupID: 721523

Follow Up By: cycadcenter - Friday, Mar 25, 2011 at 11:14

Friday, Mar 25, 2011 at 11:14

Yep,

Another first time caravaner with a rig which by your own statement will be barely legal using a tug which is barely adequate. Cruizing around Oz.

Sure hope you get many hours and months of driver training before endangering the rest of the road users.

Bruce

FollowupID: 721526

Follow Up By: BenAlElla - Saturday, Mar 26, 2011 at 14:25

Saturday, Mar 26, 2011 at 14:25

John,

Hi. By the sounds of it, it could take me a little while and a lot of typing to answer all of your questions. If you would like to contact me through our email address I am more than happy to share our other details, without the passing judgement of others.

Our email address is abeharvey@bigpond.com

Look forward to talking more.

ABE.
Allison, Ben and Ella.

FollowupID: 721664