Solar Panel : LOADS ??

Need some advice here on what can constitute 'load' in solar jargon :

I have a dual system [2x 90aH batteries] in the Troopy, hooked up via isolator, obviously crank and auxiliary/storage.

I currently run either a 40litre Engels (or an 80 litre Bushmans) from the auxiliary, as well as the 'occassional small items like lights/small chargers etc.

This auxiliary is maintained by the vehicle system when travelling and by a roof-mounted 120watt Solar Panel via a 10amp regulator, when camped.

All works exceedingly well !!!!!

Today ( a nice bright and SUNNY day!) I note on my Regulator read-out that the panel voltage is at 19.3v, with a battery voltage at 13.5v .......... lookin' good to me ! Equally 'looking good' is there is some spare (and usable ??) power not being used/stored.

I have a third battery which I keep seperate from the vehicle system and generally used away from the vehicle in camp, for other lights/detector battery charging/hair driers/foot spas/toasters and other 'essentials!!'

Normally charged/maintained via another seperate 120watt folding portable panel .

QUESTION , at last ......
Can I hook up this third battery to the roof-mounted panel (as a LOAD) and use the LOAD to maintain the third battery ??? Purely to utilise the excess power from the roof-mounted panel currently not being saved ..... ??

Of course, in camp, I will have the folding panel set up ...... this exercise is simply to make use of the 'apparent' spare power whilst parked at home ...... waiting for the bloody rivers to go down so I can cross to the goldfields and start finding enough gold to pay for all this 'stuff' I have .... !!!
Regards Pedro









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Reply By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Saturday, Apr 02, 2011 at 19:24

Saturday, Apr 02, 2011 at 19:24
Hello Pedro,

no, you can't use your third battery as a load - at least not while it's fully charged.

But you could use your 12V fridges and put the warm beer into them, saves some electricity on the 240V fella inside the house :)

cheers, Peter
AnswerID: 450111

Follow Up By: Member - Pedro the One (QLD) - Saturday, Apr 02, 2011 at 20:05

Saturday, Apr 02, 2011 at 20:05
Hi Peter,
Thanks for your reply :
"no, you can't use your third battery as a load - at least not while it's fully charged."

It's my auxilliary (2nd battery) that is fully charged (at 13.5v) -
by implication, does that mean that if my third battery is not fully charged it could therefore accept the overflow from the auxilliary, via the LOAD ??

Rergards Pedro






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FollowupID: 722572

Follow Up By: Member - Pedro the One (QLD) - Saturday, Apr 02, 2011 at 20:13

Saturday, Apr 02, 2011 at 20:13
Follow-up tro my followup ............

in my OP I said ...."use the LOAD to maintain the third battery ??? "

I should have said " use the LOAD to just TOP-UP the third battery ???


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FollowupID: 722575

Follow Up By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Saturday, Apr 02, 2011 at 21:58

Saturday, Apr 02, 2011 at 21:58
no worries Pedro,

all understood, but still no, you can't use your 3rd battery as a load without regularly discharging it.
Batteries are like storage tanks for energy, which don't use up energy by themselves in sufficient amounts, like 'loads' do.
If the battery's fully charged, it can't take in any more energy without getting damaged slowly.
If you really wanted to use the 3rd battery as a load on a daily basis, you'd have to discharge it overnight to make it act like a load during the day.

Fridges on the other hand can take in surplus amount of solar energy by loading them a bit more - with warm beer e.g.
But if you can't keep up drinking them all just lean back and enjoy the surplus installed solar Watts.

cheers, Peter

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FollowupID: 722582

Reply By: Bonz (Vic) - Saturday, Apr 02, 2011 at 20:02

Saturday, Apr 02, 2011 at 20:02
The battery would only draw current while it was charging, so it wouldnt act as a load
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AnswerID: 450113

Reply By: Member - bungarra (WA) - Saturday, Apr 02, 2011 at 21:41

Saturday, Apr 02, 2011 at 21:41
keep it simple and hook up the third battery in parallel with the auxillary that is normally maintained by the solar when stationary

if you reckon the aux. battery is full because the charge it is receiving is less than the solar panel is capable of giving it is possibly because it is approching a full SOC and the regulator has reduced the input for the final stage of charge

by connecting the aux with the third battery (jumper leads will do as a temporary connection)...the regulator will read them as one battery and if there is a need for charging of the third it will pick that up.

you will simply have a parallel charging system same as when your alternator is charging both the main and aux. when driving

keep it simple...DONT use the Load
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Follow Up By: Member - Pedro the One (QLD) - Sunday, Apr 03, 2011 at 00:00

Sunday, Apr 03, 2011 at 00:00
OK _ now I have the picture clear ( I think ? )!!

a ... can only top-up the third battery IF it has less than a full charge in it.

b ... but by connecting the 2nd and 3rd battery in parallel then the third will utilise the panel's excess - until it is fully charged ......... correct ??

Thusly, by using that definition : a LOAD is a CONTINUAL drawing AND replacing of power ??

Which now allows me to do what I originally wanted: of utilising that excess power, only now by 'paralleling' the two batteries !!

Many thanks to all - much appreciated ......


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Follow Up By: Eli J - Sunday, Apr 03, 2011 at 02:15

Sunday, Apr 03, 2011 at 02:15
once you connect your batteries in parralel they will act as one. Meaning if you had one fully charged and the other, lets say 50% charged, hooked them up in parallel, then from what i believe, the 50% will draw from the fully charged until they are even.
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Follow Up By: John B13 - Sunday, Apr 03, 2011 at 08:20

Sunday, Apr 03, 2011 at 08:20
Hi Folks, If one parallels a charged battery with a 50% charged state battery, what will happen is a little current from 100% to 50% but not a balance of
75% to 75% as ,when on charge from a panel or charger, the applied voltage raises the terminal voltage of battery say, from 12.2v to 13.2v @ around 5-10 amps on a 100AH battery. A charged battery at rest will exibit about 12.6v. so there is not a high enough voltage to drag the other battery up to itself.
To cut a long story short, with the different charge states, the fully charged battery will supply most of the current to the load while system is not being charged & 50% charged battery will accept most of the current while batteries are on charge from an external source. If a reasonable amount of capacity is cycled this way, the batteries will quickly equalise.
By the way, cycling of batteries from full state of charge down to say, around 70% & then recharging back up to 100% within a few days is good for the cells & will keep batteries more "active". Keeping cells in a float state for long periods (say many weeks) is not recommended & leaving them in a discharged state will damage them.
NOTE:If you are wondering how to pick a poor battery, from a dicharged state, they will come up to a high terminal voltage prematurely (say 12 up to 14 volts in an hour with a charger probably supplying only a few amps or so).) when on charge & draw less current than expected doing it. Remember, that current over time that you want from it can only be obtained by current over time when charging it.
Some technical info for those who can use it:
cells disharged= 2.05v. cells @ 50%=2.25v. cells fully charged=2.35cv. (readings taken @ no charge or load)
Charge rate for best performance should be about 10% to 20% capacity for first half of charge from a flat state. Then no more than 10% at half way point (2.35v/cell on charge). You will find the current dropping throughout charge so these are guide points. Towards end of charge the battery should be gassing & at this point charge current should not exceed 5% of capacity & be allowed to run in this state for 3 hours. This will equalise the cells to each other. This gassing proceedure should be done at least once a month.
I'll stop pratteling on now, I recently went into the do's & dont's of batteries from several sources & thought it might be helpful to some.
Best to all, John.B.
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Follow Up By: Member - bungarra (WA) - Sunday, Apr 03, 2011 at 10:06

Sunday, Apr 03, 2011 at 10:06
all of your queries are now well answered but LOAD is simply current draw OUT not the replacement of current used
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Follow Up By: John B13 - Monday, Apr 04, 2011 at 06:55

Monday, Apr 04, 2011 at 06:55
NOTES & ERRATA........

IN MY DESCRIPTION OF BATTERY CHARGE STATES it should read..........
cells discharged=2.05v. cells@50%=2.25v cells fully charged=2.35v. (READINGS TAKEN WITH BATTERY ON CHARGER)
Sorry about that error.
Basically means 12.3v discharged, 13.3v@ 50% & 14.1v fully charged while still on charger. Note most vehicle alternators charge the car battery to around 14.2 volts.
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FollowupID: 722745

Reply By: Member - John and Val - Sunday, Apr 03, 2011 at 08:23

Sunday, Apr 03, 2011 at 08:23
Pedro,

I think you may be being led astray by the fact that although the panels voltage measures as over 19V, the battery only seems to be seeing 13.5V of that 19V.

You are not in fact losing that energy. If you have a simple controller, it has decided that the battery is fully charged and has simply disconnected the panel from the battery to avoid over-charging. An MPPT controller actually converts the available voltage down to what the battery requires - you may be seeing that.

Either way, it seems your battery is fully charged so there's nowhere for the panel's output to go. As others have said, if you want to have more storage, just add another battery in parallel with the present one. If you just want to use that surplus energy, cooling more beer might be a good way to go.

Cheers

John
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AnswerID: 450147

Reply By: Mike DiD - Sunday, Apr 03, 2011 at 10:49

Sunday, Apr 03, 2011 at 10:49
The LOAD connection on a Solar Regulator is normally connected directly to the Battery terminals - separated only by a current monitoring resistor and possibly a switch to prevent over-discharge of the battery.

You can connect a battery to the LOAD terminbal - but it will cause problems because the Regulator doesn't see it as a battery being charged and won't cut back when the current to it drops, indicating a fully charged battery.

Just connect the third battery to the BATTERY terminal.



- " panel voltage is at 19.3v, with a battery voltage at 13.5" - this doesn't tell us enough.
It could be because -
1. The battery is heavily discharged and charge voltage is still rising.
2. The battery is fully charged and the regulator has dropped back to float voltage.
You need to check the current going into the battery to tell the difference.
AnswerID: 450160

Follow Up By: John B13 - Sunday, Apr 03, 2011 at 13:33

Sunday, Apr 03, 2011 at 13:33
I agree with Mike. Do you have a multimeter or an automotive current meter?You need to measure current in circuit of panel to regulator or regulator to battery. Do you have data sheet for your regulator that tells you the "float voltage setting? Is the regulator running warm? If cold = float. The other thing to check is if the connections on both terminals of the battery are clean & tight. I think that there is not much current being drawn because the panel voltage would be a lot lower (less than 15-16 volts) due to the load if the battery was still drawing current. What you are seeing is the clamp voltage set by the zener diode across the panels circuit. ie no load voltage.
Hope this helpsJohn.
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