Towing Issues with 91 T/D 80 Series
Submitted: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 17:08
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TurboCruise
I've just returned from my maiden voyage towing a 19' Jayco Expanda. I found that my 80 series diesel, fitted with factory turbo, struggled at times towing the van. Being a manual, I never went into overdrive (5th gear) so it was revving around 2800 rpm sitting on around 90 - 95 kph. The car would struggle up hills and would over heat under load, as
well as emit significantly more smoke from the exhaust that it normally does. Fuel consumption went out the door, which I expected, but not to the tune of around 25L/100. The van weighs in at approx. 2.4T. The cruiser is a one owner and has never let me down, but I am surprised as to why it is lacking in power. I thought it would have handled the tow a lot better than it did. Am I asking too much from the old girl or do you think that it may have an issue mechanically? Fuel pump and turbo are close to original (I had them changed out under warranty at around 30,000k) and injectors changed around 150k ago. She is coming up to 400k on the clock. Do you think the overheating, lack of power, excess smoke and fuel consumption could all be inter-related? Is there a turbo specialist that anybody could recommend in the
Perth area if you believe it could be a mechanical issue? Any
feedback would be appreciated.
Cheers.
Reply By: Member - Old Girl (QLD) - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 17:37
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 17:37
check your tow capacity. Our 92 can only tow 2250kg it struggled with our Jayco 18' outback poptop. You are probably asking too much for your oldgirl.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 18:07
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 18:07
Sounds like yours is limited by its tow bar. My listing shows 3500 kg, 2270 kg with ball type tow bar (what ever that is) and 2500 kg with pintle type tow bar.
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Follow Up By: Member - Old Girl (QLD) - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 18:23
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 18:23
Sorry 2270kg it is. Peter could you possibly send a link as to where you get 3500kg. We have a kmar rear bar from memory I think its 3500kg, that doesn't change the capacity of the vehicle but.
Sharon
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Follow Up By: Hairs & Fysh - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 21:03
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 21:03
Hi Sharon,
Our 91 is 2600kg's with the tongue in the lower position, with the tongue in the higher sitting it is only 1600kg.
I believe Aug 96 is where the 80 could tow 3500kg, there has been countless threats here and on other forums about this.
I've emailed both Toyota(who couldn't really give me an answer to why the difference and I've contacted the RTA here in NSW who say they have no idea why it changed. In 93 the 80 got bigger brakes as
well as 16" wheels.
Hope this helps Sharon.
FollowupID:
725977
Follow Up By: Member - Old Girl (QLD) - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 22:27
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 22:27
Yeh
John we put 16's on. Went through all the bs thats why the 76 is in the driveway. Ill leave it at that like you said its been done over in other threads.
FollowupID:
725995
Reply By: Kimba10 - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 18:02
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 18:02
Sounds like its time to get the old girl into a diesel specialist and get some things done. So the fuel pumps done roughly 370 thou ?? even the injectors might need a freshen up again. Sounds like with it running a tad warm and the extra smoke you mention is all related to fuel. They would also be able to tell how the turbo is as
well. I have seen these old buses do easy 500k without touching the turbo obviously with good servicing. If you havnt done the bottom end bearings for a while I would probably recomend getting them done as
well if you intend to keep it. Rough figure for the bearings is around the $500/600 mark. If you havnt already also check/replace the fluid coupling for the clutch fan, these are a known issue as
well for not cutting in when required, some people say they dont need to cut in when cruising along due to air flow, this is crap, If the engine coolant requires to be cooled down the fan will cut in either crusing or sitting still. Not as good as the multivalve engined cruisers but still a bloody great 4wd............
AnswerID:
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Reply By: MEMBER - Darian, SA - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 18:52
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 18:52
Sounds like it must be the 1HD-T direct injection turbo diesel, @ 123Kw. If it was a healthy motor, that should be enough for modest performance and produce quite reasonable economy. I guess the car's aging process may have crept up on you (understandable - 400k is a good span), then to tow a van at this late stage might be a shock all round ?
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Follow Up By: Ray - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 19:00
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 19:00
At least it doesn't have all the cabbage the newer vehicles have.
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Reply By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 19:22
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 19:22
Hi Turbo Cruiser,
I have the later model 1HD FT. 10 months ago I had the injectors and the pump done up, cost about $3.5 thousand, and the difference was immediately noticeable.
I would say that this could be your problem as
well.
Recently had my motor rebuilt and I think they messed with the fuel settings on the pump now running rich and the exhaust gas temps are too high when towing.
Questions
1. Is it laying clouds of black smoke when you give it a boot full or towing uphill.
2. Does it only overheat only when you are towing the van up
hill.
If the motor is over fueled (black smoke) it will run at higher temps.
As others have said get a good diesel mechanic to
check it out. Will probably save you money in the long run.
Cheers, Bruce.
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AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - Scrubby (VIC) - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 19:31
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 19:31
Excess fuel consumption and black smoke are often caused by air starvation.
It may be worth checking the air filter system and the turbo performance.
Scrubby
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Follow Up By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 19:35
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 19:35
Should have added I am currently getting around 17.5 litres per 100K towing 2.2 tonne van as a general rule. That is up
hill and along the flats averaged out.
Around town I get about 11.5 not towing, country town.
If you are using more than about 20 Litres per 100K towing I would suggest its injectors and pump. If you have tthe pump done up get them to give it a tweak as factory setting are too conservative.
Big End Bearing replacement is a must to have as others have advised if only to be on the safe side. very cheap insurance.
Bruce.
| At home and at ease on a track that I know not and
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Follow Up By: TurboCruise - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 20:42
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 20:42
Thanks Bruce.
Yes it gives off a pool of black smoke when l give it a boot or tow up
hill and yes it also only overheats when under load going up a
hill. The minute you back off the accelerator, it cools of again.
Big end bearings have been replaced. How often should they be done?
I will be looking to take it to a good diesel mechanic and see if I can get this issues sorted.
Thanks again.
Guy
FollowupID:
725968
Follow Up By: Hairs & Fysh - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 20:57
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 20:57
Hi Guy,
BEB's should be done every 100 000.Shouldn't cost anymore than about 450 bucks with oil and filter.
Might be worth while replacing the silicone grease in the fan clutch, if she's getting a tad warm up hills. My old girls done, I think I should do mine soon.
FollowupID:
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Reply By: Member - Redbakk (WA) - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 19:30
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 19:30
HI turboCruise.......I have a very similar set up and you will have to watch overheating ( over fuelling)....I have fitted a EGT gauge and a head temperature gauge and a loss of water alarm.
You have to learn to drive to temperatures for EGT (exhaust gas temperature).
if you want to....private message me for more clear explanation as I have already been through the pain......cheers.
AnswerID:
453191
Follow Up By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 20:04
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 20:04
Hi Redback,
I have an EGT fitted, going to fit a low coolant alarm shortly and have got an engine watchdog temp gauge to fit asap.
Could you please advise where did you fit the pickup on the engine temp probe.
The instructions say to put it on the thermostat housing but if there is no water going through the thermostat housing, if problem develops,then temp reading will be incorrect. I would have thought on the head but I would need to be careful where on the head I think.
Your advice would be appreciated.
Cheers, Bruce.
| At home and at ease on a track that I know not and
restless and lost on a track that I know. HL.Lifetime Member
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Follow Up By: Member - Redbakk (WA) - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 22:08
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 22:08
Image Could Not Be Found
" A " is the head position. ( bolted to head LHS of "A")
" B " is the air (post radiator) position. (fitted to a metal tag in the air way)
I have a third sensor for the oil temperature which is not installed yet. ( I bought 3 sensors with the gauge and use 2 push button switches to see each reading.)
To the right of "B" you can see where the low water sensor is fitted to the top radiator hose.
My EGT sensor is fitted post turbo and was calibrated at Bunbury Fuel Injection to give me the correct temperatures.
FollowupID:
725989
Follow Up By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Thursday, May 05, 2011 at 16:19
Thursday, May 05, 2011 at 16:19
Many thanks Redbakk, very helpfull. Looks like you have most bases covered there.
On my previous vehicle, petrol 97 80 series, I soldered a brass bush into the of the top tank of the radiator for the low water alarm and it was excellent. Water drop of half inch set it off.
Will try something similar with this one.
Once again, many thanks.
Bruce.
| At home and at ease on a track that I know not and
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Reply By: hotfishez - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 20:00
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 20:00
Everyone has the same point. the td 80 is more than capable of towing your setup, get it into a diesel tune mob for a tune and dyno. Towing in 5th gear is not an issue in a 80 series. The gear is strong enough regardless asto what people may tell you, in an 80 series box 5th gear is run differently to a standard 5 speed box setup, speak to a gearbox specialist and they can explain to you how it works.
Have all settings, valve clearances, pump timing fuel deliver set to factory, dont crank it up and it wont let you down. Fit a 3" exhaust with dump pipe replacement, it will also help with running temp as
well as performance.
Good luck
AnswerID:
453197
Follow Up By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 20:17
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 20:17
Hi Hotfishez,
I had heard that towing in overdrive was not a good idea so I towed in 3rd (auto) and some times I thought,
well it is going OK so I might go to overdrive.
What I found was that I used more fuel and the vehicle would slowly slow down at the same throttle settings so I would have to feed in more throttle and that put consumption up. So I found that 3rd was pretty much as they say. Engine revs a little more but it is easier on the donk I found.
That was my experience with the 4.5 petrol. The turbo diesel I have now, which has gas over diesel, is a slightly different kettle of fish, but I still mainly tow in 3rd (auto) especially in hilly terain as the diesel recovers lost momentum more quickly.
But as you say these are exceptionally capable vehicles and 2.5 tonne should present no problems to them. I reckon I could tow 3.5 tonne with mine as they do with the 105 hundred series.
Cheers, Bruce.
| At home and at ease on a track that I know not and
restless and lost on a track that I know. HL.Lifetime Member
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FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: TurboCruise - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 20:46
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 20:46
Hi Hotfishez.
That's interesting about towing in 5th gear. I always felt that this model could tow in 5th but have always been told that it would damage that gear. I think it would have been ok for 70% of the trip in 5th gear.
I will be taking her to a good diesel mechanic and get it thoroughly checked out before our next trip.
Thanks again.
Guy
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Off-track - Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 22:35
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 at 22:35
One of the easier/cheaper things to do is take off the intake manifold and
check the buildup of carbon gunk. Over a period of time this can heavily restrict the passage of air into your engine, essentially starving it of oxygen.
FollowupID:
725998
Follow Up By: Dave(NSW) - Wednesday, May 04, 2011 at 09:00
Wednesday, May 04, 2011 at 09:00
Try loading your van up with all the gear you take away and the go to a public weigh-bridge and have it weighed, You might get a shock at what it actually weighs.
Cheers Dave.
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726010
Follow Up By: WBS - Wednesday, May 04, 2011 at 09:32
Wednesday, May 04, 2011 at 09:32
Towing in 5th gear in an 80 series is an issue. I clearly read in my owners manual of my 93 built that I should tow in 5th gear. Unfortunately I cannot find the same advice in the owners manual of my 97 built 80 series.
Also, based on my current 97 vintage 80 series with aftermarket Turbo, towing in 5th gear really heats up the motor quickly according to my pyrometer even on the flat. The temperature rises quickly
well above 500 degrees Celcius. If I drop back into 4th , maintaining my speed (increasing the revs by around 200rpm), cause the temperature to drop back quite noticeably.
I also question whether it is healthy to drive at 2800 rpm. I never go above 2600 rpm for a sustained period, and try to sit on about 2400 to 2500 which equates to around 85-90 kph.
These are my observations based on my experience with my vehicles.
WBS
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Reply By: Member - john y - Wednesday, May 04, 2011 at 11:09
Wednesday, May 04, 2011 at 11:09
I had very similar problems wiyh my 80 series Turbo and asked the
forum for help.The problem of overhearing & black smoke under pressure were the same.After anew head & gasket overhaul the pump & injectors new hoses & cap the problem turned out to ,be
1/. The air inlet hose was horribly distorted and under load [uphill or with the boot in], the hose collapsed into itself, thus restricting air flow into the motor hence an instantaneous heat spike and black smoke and lack of power.back off and everything returned to normal.
2/. The viscous fan whilst giving the impression that it was O.K. was not operating properly and was slowing down or stopping at higher revs.The practice of testing the fans resistance is not enough.
Forum members identified this as a potential source of the problem when I made my enquiry and advised me of a fluid Toyota have that solved that issue.
Hope that my experiences may be of some help.
Good luck.
john y
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Follow Up By: Member - john y - Wednesday, May 04, 2011 at 16:21
Wednesday, May 04, 2011 at 16:21
Meant to mention thread No 85326
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Follow Up By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Thursday, May 05, 2011 at 16:32
Thursday, May 05, 2011 at 16:32
Good advice there
John.
It is probably wise to fit a boost gauge as
well as EGT gauge.
Boost gauge would have shown your problem when boost fell under acceleration.
Interestingly we all go for the wost case scenario first when we should be working on the KISS principal. Human nature I guess
Cheers, Bruce.
| At home and at ease on a track that I know not and
restless and lost on a track that I know. HL.Lifetime Member
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Reply By: ob - Wednesday, May 04, 2011 at 11:41
Wednesday, May 04, 2011 at 11:41
TurboCruise,
If you feel you have checked the usual air and fuel filters and hoses and need some further advice in the
Perth area try TurboTech on Grt Eastern Hwy in
Redcliffe. Just behind them is A1 Fuel Injection so between them they should be able to correct turbo or fuel pump/ injector problems.
ob
AnswerID:
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