Patrol Prado Traction Test

Submitted: Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 09:38
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A question I have always wanted to answer was wether a modern traction control system would perform better than my preferred setup, a GU 4800 Patrol fitted with a single front locker & rear Lsd , on a slick surface.

The kids have decided to dump the 2004 diesel Prado Grande so were finally
willing to let me test it under controlled conditions.

Years ago, in what was a very high stakes test when Discovery 11's were all the rage I managed to convince a dealer to put a new Discovery up against my then GQ Patrol on Victoria's wet rocky Ault-Beac track. If the discovery won I would buy it.
It clawed 1/2 up the hill and then its traction control got confused.
I was able to drive up the track and actually pass it, sweating profusely
all the time.

That was early in the days of these systems and since then the Prado's in particular have come out with significantly better systems particularly on the up market Air-Suspension models.

This test was to sort out how good they might be on the type of surface that most stops me - a slick wet track.

The object of the test was not to get up the test section at any cost, but
rather to drive at a steady slow pace avioding wheel spin and let the two
cars do their thing.

The kids told me they had thrashed a traction controlled TI Pathfinder up this section at 2am just a few hours before our test so we new it was possible.


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The Prado & Patrol were set up very similarly - AT tyres all set to 28 psi , both cars were autos.

The track section chosen has a smooth left hander up hill section of moderate slope, but it goes off camber and has been proven to test the limits of many cars in the past.
It has no ruts or rocks that might cause articulation issues and simply has a thin slick muddy surface and is hard underneath - just like so many of our tracks in winter.

The cars were given a couple of runs at both walking and jogging speeds.

Result - basically the cars proved to be equal.

Neither car was able to get up, and both simply ended up with lots of spinning wheels and no forward motion. The engagement of the front locker on the Patrol pushed it maybe a meter further up the hill but there was nothing in it.

As far as I am concerned their was no difference between the two cars.
Robin Miller

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Reply By: Member - Phil 'n Jill (WA) - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 09:53

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 09:53
As usual, a worthy contribution Robin.

Always look forward to your in depth 'comparos'.

Cheers - Phil
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 10:02

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 10:02
Thanks Phil - normally would have stripped a few stills out of the videos taken etc - but to heavily into last minute trip preparation at the moment.
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Reply By: Mr Pointyhead - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 09:58

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 09:58
If you have the oppertunity, it would be interestring to see the test with a much lower tyre pressure, say 18-20 psi to see if the extra tyre traction has any affect on difflocks vs traction control.

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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:09

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:09
Hi Pointy

That may have been interesting - but I suspect it would push the dominant factor towards the tyres and away from the traction aids.
If my mission was to get up the hill though less pressures would certainly have helped.
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Reply By: Member - Captain (WA) - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 10:31

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 10:31
Nice writeup as usual Robin. Would be interesting to see in a "high traction" surface like a rocky hillclimb, as mud can mask the differences - if the wheels cannot grip, doesn't matter how many are turning :)

Cheers

Captain
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:21

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:21
Hello Captain

I have been pretty convinced from other work that the locker is hard to beat on rocky hillclimbs - if not just because a traction control requires slip to work and that slip can gash up tyres on sharp rocks.
I am thinking here of tennis ball and larger size rocks .

There are a couple of impressive videos around of Prados going up a smooth rock surfaces , but can't see how a locker wouldn't be at least as good there.

This particular track section is quite seductive as it turns left as it rises and goes off camber , just the sort of condition that could force a locked diff into
slipping sideways because of unequal turn radius.
The traction control might have prevented this and won out, but it wasn't to be I guess.
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Reply By: mikehzz - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:25

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:25
Robin,

There is an excellent comparison on Youtube of 3 Prado's, one with open diffs, one with traction control and another with front and rear ARB lockers. The difference is astonishing and the ARB's are certainly better than the traction control with the open diffs obviously a hopeless last.

Prado Comparison

Mike
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:40

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:40
Hi Mike

Thanks , thats a nice video , I think there is a second part as well.

I have seen those and often wondered about the off angle slippery slope
stuff that can cause lockers some grief. Nothing much seems to help on these
except momentum and hoping its a short climb.

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Follow Up By: Kimba10 - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 23:57

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 23:57
2nd Part.......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNFacsKnswM&feature=related
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Reply By: The Landy - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 14:05

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 14:05
Good read Robin, thanks. Noting, a change of fortunes may have you seen you roaming the country in a Landy...
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 17:46

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 17:46
What might have been hey Landy - it was a strange time when the local Landy dealers had little test tracks , I convinced them to let me drive one in my GQ and it was a bit tight for it - must have lulled them into a false sense of security.

The driver was unable to continue as it was , and an independant observer had to drive the Disco home (after it stalled in a river crossing).
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Follow Up By: Member - Tony S (WA) - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 19:26

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 19:26
Very interesting Robin.
The trouble with these electronic traction controlled vehicles is that you must relearn your off-road driving skills. That includes Landrovers.
I would say that nine-tenths of the sales men wouldn't know how to drive off-road.

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Follow Up By: mikehzz - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 21:17

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 21:17
Tony you are so right. Driving traction controlled electronic wizardry equiped vehicles is quite different to the gears and levers types. I've got one of each and it catches me out every so often. Mike
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Reply By: workhorse - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 14:08

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 14:08
Nice report and timely as I have been watching the Prados with traction control (autos) and have been very impressed with them and are now on my 'next vehicle list'.
Thanks for the report.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 17:48

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 17:48
I think they are pretty good in that department workhorse.
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Reply By: snailbait (Blue mntns) - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 16:04

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 16:04
hi Robin Miller
I to have a 2004 Prado gxl Petrol auto and on slipper tracks i use centre dif lock. i use LONG TRAIL TYRES and i do not have trouble in mud or sand Try centre dif lock on fast slippery dirt roads. We were on the Gib river road crossing the Penticost river when we were followed by two rental Troupes when i saw them in the rear mirrors advancing very quickly to overtake me at about 80 click when i engaged centre diff lock the difference in traction was enormous we still travelling about 80 clicks around corrugated corners and did not see the rental troupes again
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Follow Up By: Member - Duncs - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 17:30

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 17:30
I would think there are a couple of reasons for that performance difference snailbait.

1) The Prado would have a much better power to weight ratio than the Troopy.

2) The Prado has a much more sophisticated suspension system than the Troopy.

Put these two together and it is pretty easy to see why the Prado would pull away from a Troopy on fast dirt.

What you, and everyone else with a centre diff, needs to understand is that only when you engage your centre diff lock does your vehicle have a similar drive set up to a vehicle which has a transfer case with the front axle engaged.

Now that you have caught up on traction with a real 4wd :-) your suspension system would give you the advantage over a Troopy. A Patrol on the other hand already has a pretty good suspension system so I doubt you would keep up with Robin...or me. :-))))

Duncs

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Reply By: Member - DAZA (QLD) - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 16:45

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 16:45
G/Day Robin

I would have thought the Weight Difference between the two vehicles would have given the Prado an edge.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 20:07

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 20:07
Yeah ! I'll take any excuse to make the Patrol look good over a chardonay - but I'm afraid I gotta be honest and call it even - cause no point kidding yourself when out in the bush.
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Reply By: Member - Duncs - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 17:46

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 17:46
Robin,

It is always interesting to do a measured comparison between different vehicles.

Although we did not set out to do a test this experience was interesting. On a trip in the Blue Mountains. we came across a steep section of slippery clay track that had big holes causing extreme cross axle situations.

The vehicles in our group all coped with this track differently. The Daihatsu Feroza went around it. He had no problems because the by pass track was flat and grippy.

There was a Prado with traction control, an older Prado with open diffs and my GU with just the standard LSD rear open front set up and standard suspension.

I was at the front and took my turn at the hill first. By careful wheel placement I was able to keep all 4 wheels on the ground and got up with a minor loss of traction on the front right at one point.

The Prado with TC also got up fairly easily but at different times he had one or the other front wheel pawing at the air.

The guy in the older Prado had the most fun. He tried to go up at the walking pace I had set but was soon forced to back down and engage a little more momentum. At one stage he had both front wheels in the air at the same time. The young teens in that car thought it was great but the potential for damage was very real.

Admittedly my wife is a fairly experienced off road passenger but she didn't think much about the track. The wife of the guy in the newer Prado does not have the same experience as mine but she was scared and uncomfortable.

It would have been interesting to swap passengers and do it again but we didn't have time and we didn't think of it. Maybe next time.

Duncs
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 20:21

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 20:21
It certainly can be interesting Duncs , to watch the results and sometimes you get a surprize. I like to try your trick and keep all wheels down as long as possilbe but I often stuff it up.

In fact what prompted me to persue this test is that I had Howard (ACT) and some friends down recently and I was just showing them some tracks including this one when it was dry.

Howards V8 79 tray drove this section with a little wheelspin , and I ambled along behind and next minute I couldn't get up , one locker didn't do it either and I had to engage 2.

I looked for a tree to hide behind to aviod embrassment.

Still haven't got to the bottom of this yet , but I have lots of film to analyse, and a quick glance seems to show that I had to much articulation , whereas the 79 series has leaf springs - Oh well , its a mystery yet to be solved.
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Follow Up By: Member - Tony S (WA) - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 23:14

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 23:14
Hi Robin,

The secret with traction control is constant power ( steady Revs ) no thumping the right boot up and down on the "hot" pedal. Do that and it can confuse the puter.
Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Tony
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Follow Up By: Member - Howard (ACT) - Tuesday, Jul 26, 2011 at 19:11

Tuesday, Jul 26, 2011 at 19:11
Robin,
I think weight is an important factor & i'm not talking about the size of the driver
it think it was more to do with the 1.6 tonne on rear axle and 1.4 on the front axle.
because the surface was basicly smooth albeit with a change of camber, the articulation wasnt tested as much as the traction aspect and the back end especially on my vehicle was not going to jump off the ground.if there had of been steps it might have been a different outcome.
cheers
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Tuesday, Jul 26, 2011 at 21:35

Tuesday, Jul 26, 2011 at 21:35
Hi Howard

Sounds like a good subject to discuss around a campfire.

See you soon !
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Reply By: olcoolone - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 18:31

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 18:31
Good comparison

After playing in the cow paddock down at lake Alexandria 2 weeks ago with our 200 using standard tyres I was surprised how well the traction control worked and how stress free getting through 8 to 12 inch black mud was. There was few times I expected it to get stuck still made it through and even going slow.

Our 4x4 before the 200 had diff locks and MT tyres and it would of made it but with a bit more effort. After playing with traction control I have came to the conclusion that in most terrain types a 4x4 with traction control can be better then a 4x4 with diff locks.

What I have worked out is a 4x4 with diff locks tends to dig holes if 1 wheel spins, if 1 wheel digs a hole it is harder to get out of the slippery area.

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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 20:26

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 20:26
Gotta get my hands on a 200 series in the bush Olcoolone - nothing like direct compares , same time same place.

Nearly all the stuff I have found doen't sem to support the traction control being better senario , but you car has stacks of power and wouldn't be at a loss to shed some of it via the braking control.

You will have to propose a test we can do to find a situation to clearly show where it is better, then take a short holiday and leave a note telling me where the keys are.
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Follow Up By: Nutta - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 21:17

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 21:17
What I have worked out is a 4x4 with diff locks tends to dig holes if 1 wheel spins, if 1 wheel digs a hole it is harder to get out of the slippery area

I might be confused but with a diff lock wouldnt both wheels spin and not one?
So how can it dig a hole?

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Follow Up By: Nutta - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 21:19

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 21:19
I should have added quotes to that first line, sorry.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Jul 26, 2011 at 14:10

Tuesday, Jul 26, 2011 at 14:10
If both wheels have traction they wont dig holes

If one wheel has traction and the other doesn't then the one with no traction will dig a hole as both are driving, you can have one wheel on a hard surface and another on a soft surface both wheel spinning

In an ideal world of 4wding both locked wheels should have traction applied at equal rates.

Diff locks work well and even if they dig a hole they will go further then a non locked 4wd, with traction control the wheel with no spin does the driving. as opposed to a normal 4wd where the wheel with spin does the driving.

A LSD is meant to send power to the wheel that is not spinning or if both are spinning then to both wheels again this can dig holes and get you stuck.

Not many LSD diffs work properly and the older they are the less pressure.
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Follow Up By: Andrew & Jen - Saturday, Jul 30, 2011 at 20:31

Saturday, Jul 30, 2011 at 20:31
Hullo Robin
Interesting comparison - thanks
I fitted a Detroit Trutrac LSD to the front and an Eaton Elocker to the rear of the Series 80.
I find the front LSD to work well as it pulls in the direction the wheels are pointing and is working all the time as needed. The Elocker is then used as necessary in situations requiring extra traction.
With the auto trans (= "soft power"), walking up slopes seems to work in most cases
Cheers
Andrew
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Reply By: Crackles - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 21:31

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 21:31
On muddy hills I find my traction control requires a little more accelleration for it to work fully compared to a vehicle with lockers so driving them at the same pace may not be compareable when searching for maximum performance. While the lockers are less likely to break traction in the 1st place, overall the traction control allows a more agressive approach to a slippery hill with far better handling & less understeer. In the slow walk over big rocks the lockers win hands down & there is no comparison.
Cheers Craig...............
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 21:45

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 21:45
Do you think that might be related to your particular vehicle Craig ?

I noted in the fine print on our Ti Pathfinder that all traction aids are disabled below 8kmh.

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Follow Up By: Crackles - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 22:28

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 22:28
The Wrangler with TC definatey benefits by a few more revs. My Cruiser with 2x lockers works better at a slower pace. The JK eats the 100 series when it comes to steep slippery hills but in my case this is more to do with power to weight than traction aids.
From my observation of different traction control systems they all depend on more power being applied if for no other reason than to overcome the wheels being braked.
Cheers Craig............
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Jul 26, 2011 at 14:12

Tuesday, Jul 26, 2011 at 14:12
I support both comments re slow driving but only if there is traction available.
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Reply By: Member - Matt M - Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 21:41

Monday, Jul 25, 2011 at 21:41
What an interesting thread, thanks Robin. Great to see a discussion free from the 'my willy is bigger than yours' stuff.

Cheers,

Matt.
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Follow Up By: Member - Corrugate75 - Tuesday, Jul 26, 2011 at 18:26

Tuesday, Jul 26, 2011 at 18:26
I definately agree with Matt M. Interesting thread, honest opinions, something to learn, some fun to be had. Greatly appreciated Robin!
Cheers Corrugate
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Reply By: Shaver - Tuesday, Jul 26, 2011 at 14:03

Tuesday, Jul 26, 2011 at 14:03
Yes I think the 200 with KDSS would be a better comparrison Robin ! You will just have to get hold of one mate, but not mine.
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Reply By: Echucan Bob - Tuesday, Jul 26, 2011 at 14:09

Tuesday, Jul 26, 2011 at 14:09
Robin

You have left me wondering if the D2 was one of the early ones, or one with the centre diff lock facility (2003 onwards)
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Tuesday, Jul 26, 2011 at 21:41

Tuesday, Jul 26, 2011 at 21:41
It was 2001 Bob , there was something about a centre lock then, can't really remember - might have been only on some models or had basic function but not a lever etc ?

Must try and dig out my notes - this will test out the filing system down here.
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Reply By: workhorse - Saturday, Jul 30, 2011 at 18:58

Saturday, Jul 30, 2011 at 18:58
Hi Robin
Do you know what year/model Prados have the TCS?

Thanks,
Michael
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