Such thing as an unsealed AGM battery??

Submitted: Sunday, Sep 04, 2011 at 20:35
ThreadID: 88846 Views:5228 Replies:7 FollowUps:21
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After speaking to the RAA's supplier for deep cycle batteries: Club Assist, they assured me that their deep cycle batteries were AGM type despite the RAA telling me that their deep cycle batteries were not AGM but calcium.
The local RAA supplier checked with Club Assist who told them that they were AGM and with a single valve.
I went ahead and ordered.
Batteries arrived and they were not sealed and immediatly started to leak from the 2 top multi plug stoppers. The local supplier removed the plugs and the batteries were full to the brim with liquid acid. I didnt look closely for glass matt.
The local supplier, without actually checking the batteries for mat and apparently without knowing much about deep cycle batteries, insists that they are AGM's and was quite abusive when I told him that clearly they are not sealed and therefore not what was described both to him and to me: no point having a valve on an unsealed battery I would have thought. Which makes me think that Club Assist were describing a different battery to the one that the RAA sent.

I am guessing that the RAA sent a calcium deep cycle being unsealed (which is what their technical dept thought they supplied) but my question is, are there such things as unsealed AGM's?
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Reply By: Member - Krakka - Sunday, Sep 04, 2011 at 20:47

Sunday, Sep 04, 2011 at 20:47
I thought AGM's could be used on their side or even upside down, so I imagine they couldn't be unsealed. Just using logic!!.

Peter
AnswerID: 464211

Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Sunday, Sep 04, 2011 at 20:51

Sunday, Sep 04, 2011 at 20:51
Yes I said that to him and he denied it was possible to put any battery on its side.
He doesn't seem to know what he is talking about but that didnt stop him laying into me....and thats after giving him 5 years of solid business.
Just goes to show that the moment things go wrong, people like that show their true colours.
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FollowupID: 738110

Follow Up By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Sunday, Sep 04, 2011 at 22:58

Sunday, Sep 04, 2011 at 22:58
Maybe it's time to switch suppliers - it's so easy not to get your quality AGM deep cycle batteries from the wrong place.

cheers, Peter
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 18:51

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 18:51
Stan if you have an issue regarding these batteries and you don't get a satisfactory response you can contact the RAA and voice your concerns.... even if your not a member.
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Reply By: Robin Miller - Sunday, Sep 04, 2011 at 20:54

Sunday, Sep 04, 2011 at 20:54
If its AGM it means just that, the electrolye is held (absorbed) into a glass matt
and should be sealed - with maybe a high pressure release valve for saftey but no screw tops.

Do you have model number of what you got.

Acid shouldn't go right to the top either.

Calcium batteries can be sealed.
Robin Miller

Member
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AnswerID: 464212

Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Sunday, Sep 04, 2011 at 21:00

Sunday, Sep 04, 2011 at 21:00
Receipt just says Product: 5601 but that could just be the retailers code for a battery
Other than that, the next line says: Battery Deep Cycle RAA Battery.
The batteries themselves just had an RAA sticker on it with no model number or make.

I have taken them back and after the abuse he agreed to refund this week but basically this is being done as a HUGE favour to me and at a loss to him which is apparently all my fault.
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Reply By: Member - Captain (WA) - Sunday, Sep 04, 2011 at 21:01

Sunday, Sep 04, 2011 at 21:01
AGM's are a class of valve regulated lead acid (VRLA) batteries. They have to be sealed as they require pressure (controlled by the vent valve) to allow the hydrogen and oxgen that evolves under charging to recombine. AGM's are also known as acid starved as the glass mat is not 100% soaked, this ensures acid cannot spill. If your new battery has removable caps and you can see liquid, then you have a wet cell battery.

Cheers

Captain

AnswerID: 464215

Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 08:23

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 08:23
Stan,
I think you'll find it was made in China as well!

Best place in Adelaide I've found for batteries is a place at Glynde. They have the full Century and Optima range including AGMs.Here is their website.
AnswerID: 464234

Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 08:56

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 08:56
Thanks Phil, you must have read my mind, that was going to be my next question.
Not many AGM suppliers in ADL it seems. No Fullriver suppliers in SA I suspect.
May go the Century if they have not gone the way of Exide.
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 09:14

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 09:14
Stan,
If its going under the bonnet, I'd be using either the Century Overlander (wet cell) if you usually drive your vehicle everyday, or if you stay put and use it as a deep cycle, go the extra $$ and put the biggest Optima that will fit. They have a new D34 size (66Ah) that is the same dimensions as a N70 battery.

I wouldn't put a cheap AGM (eg fullriver, Remco) under the bonnet. Firstly, they have a restriction on fast charging and your alternator will easily exceed this limit especially in a hot environment, and secondly, they are not as cheap as they used to be. Optima have less capacity for their size but are considerably more durable. I have a 10 year old 55Ah optima that holds its voltage running my fridge better than the 100Ah Remco I used to own (which died after 3 years).

Cheers
Phil
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FollowupID: 738129

Follow Up By: TerraFirma - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 09:26

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 09:26
You can buy Fullriver AGM batteries online and have them delivered free into store.
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Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 09:35

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 09:35
Thanks Phil,
They are not for under bonnet; they will go under my bed in my Delica camper conversion.
Had a discussion on here some time ago re spiral v flat plate and it would seem people thought flat plate would be better in this application ie deep cycle no cranking and not vented to outside.
http://www.exploroz.com/Forum/Topic/87358/Optima_and_Exide_Orbital.aspx
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 09:51

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 09:51
Gday Stan, unfortunately, you only got 2 replies on that thread and one has a commercial interest in selling AGMs. By the way, I've seen 2 Orbitals die on outback corrugations so wouldn't recommend them. Never seen an Optima die and the one I'm using is 10 years old. Optimas used to be a $600 battery, but at $292 for a D34, I prefer to buy them rather than an AGM that has a restriction on the charging rate.
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FollowupID: 738133

Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 19:13

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 19:13
As I need about 180Ah in total I would need 3 of the Optima's which is out of my price range.
Thinking about the Century AGM's; does anyone have any experience of them?
Aussie battery company even though I assume their products are made overseas.
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Reply By: Stan2.8D - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 10:42

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 10:42
Spoke to Club Assist and they told me that they are unsealed AGM's: open vented with glass mat separators. If this is true then this seems to be a strange hybrid unsealed AGM.
Cant understand why anyone would use glass mat separators and then flood the thing to the top with acid.
AnswerID: 464247

Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 11:36

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 11:36
AGM stands for Absorbed Glass Matt, so if you can see liquid, it cannot be absorbed. They either are trying to have a lend of you, or simply do not understand themselves.

Cheers

Captain
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Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 11:40

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 11:40
Could there be any benefit of having glass mat separators in a flooded battery other than the ability to sell it as having glass mat separators?
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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 12:12

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 12:12
No real technical benefit (may claim to improve battery vibration resistance), but plenty of advertising benefit!

Ask them if the "AGM" they have sold you is a VRLA battery. If they say no, then you have not received an AGM battery as requested. If they ask what does VRLA stand for, they have very little idea about batteries so take some comfort that they are not deliberatly decieveing you, just a bit unaware about batteries and are probaly just readng off an advertising sales sheet.

Cheers

Captain

PS. VRLA = Valve regulated Lead Acid
.
.
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FollowupID: 738139

Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 18:40

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 18:40
Hi Stan,

Are they are trying to tell you that because there is a glass mat in the battery, they have sold you what you ordered? If so, they have neglected the "A" bit, the Absorbed in AGM!

The "glass mat" in the AGM is like a sponge and "holds" the acid within its structure. If there is a glass mat in a wet cell, it will be like "chicken wire" and allow the acid to flow freely thru it, yet provide support to the adjacent plates for vibration resistance. Glass fibre is used as its not electrically conductive.

Cheers

Captain
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FollowupID: 738174

Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 18:51

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 18:51
Spoke to Club Assist head office and eventually spoke to their battery specialist.
Turns out there are two types of deep cycle battery which utilise glass mat.
Flooded and AGM
Problem was that neither their SA office nor the RAA dealer nor myself, were aware of this. I did specify AGM and I also said glass mat. They both just heard glass mat and the rest is a bloomin' nightmare as they say.

So I got glass mat batteries, just not absorbed glass mat batteries; but in the battery world outside these boards, the difference is not all that noticeable or understood.

Whether its a case of caveat emptor or the customer is always right......who knows!
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FollowupID: 738177

Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 19:14

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 19:14
Its a pity the "peak Australian motoring bodies" use suppliers who don't know what they are supplying and then screw their customers over the semantics of glass mat. You were obviously after an AGM battery, one that has acknolwedged superior properties that you desired, yet they sell you a "glass mat" battery and reckon all is fine. Surely RAA could get involved here and help you out...

Cheers

Captain
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FollowupID: 738186

Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 19:25

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 19:25
The problem was, the RAA knew even less about the batteries (even the technical dep't) than Club Assist......the blind leading the blind and even though I specified AGM, I got the blame and now the sour looks from the RAA agent (small town rural SA).
I expect that this will continue for several years to come as people in these parts dont forgive easily even if it wasn't your fault. I find in life if you can learn to laugh at the nastiness of others and continue onwards without getting upset or hurt or dragged down, then you are well on your way to 'climbing the mountain'.
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FollowupID: 738188

Reply By: olcoolone - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 13:26

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 13:26
Stan As what others have said, we are an approved RAA battery reseller and the knowlwdge of Club Assist can be very low at the best of times.

They do not do a AGM style battery but they do do deep cycle ones that are flooded wet cell type.

Club assist batteries are of a very high standard and their warranty is the best around.

Club Assist is owned by two brothers who have around 60% stake holdings with the remaining 40% owned buy the peak Australian motoring bodies like RAA, RACQ and NRMA.
AnswerID: 464256

Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 14:38

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 14:38
"They do not do a AGM style battery but they do do deep cycle ones that are flooded wet cell type".

Ok, these deep cycle flooded batteries, do they have any glass mat in them ie glass matt separators???
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Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 15:57

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 15:57
PS: the rest of their range may be good but these were leaking within 10 mins of collection, driving slowly on flat sealed suburban roads.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 18:48

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 18:48
Where were they leaking from..... the case?

Would not have a clue about the separators but is doesn't make them AGM.

Some industrial batteries like in submarines have glass mat separators and some casings.... fibreglass.

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FollowupID: 738175

Follow Up By: Stan2.8D - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 18:55

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 18:55
Leaking from under the sides of the rectangular multi stoppers but not really surprising as they are a flooded battery without screw down stoppers, just multi slide in stoppers.
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FollowupID: 738178

Reply By: Von Helga - Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 19:31

Monday, Sep 05, 2011 at 19:31
Stan 2.8D

Google Australian Direct
for you AGM battery at a great price.

cheers
Trevor
Just a happy camper
AnswerID: 464289

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