Starting issues - 2002 78 series Troopy 1HZ
Submitted: Monday, Mar 12, 2012 at 19:35
ThreadID:
92467
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MarkLH69
My Troopy takes a very long time to start when its cold.
Starts better if I stop turning it over and turn off with the key and then and try again. It usually fires up 2nd or 3rd go, but if I leave it cranking it takes about 15 secs before it starts.
I suspected its glow plug related, so I have replaced glow plugs ... but its not much better.
I put a voltmeter on the glowplugs and I see 12v for about 8 secs, then I see nothing for about 4 secs, then I see 12v again (this is all before I turn it over).
The actual glow plug indicator on the dash goes out after about 2 secs when cold and 1 sec when warm (this is in
Perth, so its not cold cold).
Is this normal ?
Its a 1HZ (non-turbo).
I'm not sure if its got 2 glow plug relays or just one (?)
Some articles say it should drop from 12v to about 6v, so perhaps I have a failed relay ?
I'm guessing thats my next point of investigation.
I did try connecting the glow plug rail straight off the battery and it started immediately, but I had already cranked it over to
test the voltage ..so I need to do that
test again when its totally cold.
Any ideas ?
I also think the injectors might need a service and it does stutter and bit sometimes when revving about 2,500 rpm .. but I'm trying to fix that with some injector cleaner before spending more $$ on it.
Reply By: Sir Kev & Darkie - Monday, Mar 12, 2012 at 19:54
Monday, Mar 12, 2012 at 19:54
Mark,
Try a new battery as
well. I had issues with cold starting my 1HZ 105, fixed it once I replaced the starter battery.
Cheers Kev
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AnswerID:
480192
Follow Up By: Member - Tour Boy ( Bundy QLD) - Monday, Mar 12, 2012 at 20:16
Monday, Mar 12, 2012 at 20:16
Ha ha Kev,
Darkie just didn't like you driving him after the aurion told him how you tried to break it...lol
FollowupID:
755679
Reply By: Member - Tour Boy ( Bundy QLD) - Monday, Mar 12, 2012 at 20:15
Monday, Mar 12, 2012 at 20:15
Hi,
The glow plug light is on a seperate circuit to the glow plugs and will go out after the same length of time al the time.
Watch the volt meter or listen for the click and see the gauge move up slightly, then try to start it as soon as this happens this is when the glow plugs are at full glow. If this isn't happening then it would more then likely be the relay.
The 1HZ are fairly
well known for the hesitation and is a pump issue, some are fixed with a full rebuild others aren't. Doing the injectors may mask or improve it slightly as may a slight advance in the timing but I can't recall anyone ever getting rid of it 100% (dodgy diesel in oz)
AnswerID:
480196
Reply By: Ross M - Monday, Mar 12, 2012 at 20:37
Monday, Mar 12, 2012 at 20:37
Remove the connector bar on the glow plugs and check the continuity of each one with a multi meter. All should read low ohms and be equal in reading.
If all glowplugs are ok, then I would expect the reading on the connectors of the glow plugs to be less than 12v when glowing because they draw a fair bit of current each, X 6 quite a bit of current. Thats why the glowplug relay is a heavy unit.
No ohm reading on one or more plugs means it/they is/are stuffed/burnt out and requires replacing. This would make starting hard and intermittent and run rough when finally started.
Check it out!
Ross M
AnswerID:
480203
Reply By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Monday, Mar 12, 2012 at 23:14
Monday, Mar 12, 2012 at 23:14
My 1HZ glow plug function failed altogether and until I can get to fix it I rigged a workaround. I installed a relay to supply the glow plugs directly from the battery, controlled by a pushbutton on the dash. I found the best operation was to give a short crank then stop, now press the glow button for about 3 seconds then release button and crank. Fires straight up every time.
So maybe you could achieve the same procedure without a workaround. Try a short crank, switch-off, then switch back on without cranking to activate the glow plugs for 3 seconds, then move on to crank until she fires up.
Although my workaround is err, working, I feel that I should try to restore the original system. I found the glow control unit behind the dash by removing the glovebox, but for the life of me I cannot find a relay that supplies the glow plugs. Anyone know where it is located? Tracing the cable from the glow plug bus was futile..... it disappears into a loom.
AnswerID:
480222
Follow Up By: mike39 - Tuesday, Mar 13, 2012 at 08:23
Tuesday, Mar 13, 2012 at 08:23
Allan.
The timer is the one behind the govebox, there are 2 relays (if hzj75) one behind the battery mounted on the inner guard, other beside the power outlet box behind the l/h headlight. 80 series similar but the second one lower down towards the p/s pump.
mike
FollowupID:
755722
Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Tuesday, Mar 13, 2012 at 10:44
Tuesday, Mar 13, 2012 at 10:44
Thanks Mike,
Yes, I have located the timer but the relays elude me. I would expect to find them where you indicated, on the LH inner guard, but no luck. Even searched there in the guard cavity with the batteries removed but not even a cable with an empty relay socket, only the starter relay.
I'll look again next time the batteries are out, in the meantime my manual system works OK. At least I am in control, a bit like having manual diff lockers versus automatic lockers. lol.
FollowupID:
755729
Follow Up By: Gnomey - Tuesday, Mar 13, 2012 at 13:04
Tuesday, Mar 13, 2012 at 13:04
G'day Allan
I think we have the same vehicle - 2002 HZJ 78R. The Gregorys Manual (520) I have shows the relay you are looking for on the inner LH Guard but next to the fuel filter/primer. Hmmm something NQR there. Not the view we get when looking at that guard. On mine I have one relay beside the power outlet box and it plainly operates the
driving lights.
I too have a glow plug operation problem but different from yours. My dash light (and presumably the plugs) stays on for several minutes of engine running. ie Sounds like a timer problem.
When I find someone to
test and fix my problem I'll ask about the relay location and pass it on if I can.
Cheers
Mark
FollowupID:
755743
Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Tuesday, Mar 13, 2012 at 13:48
Tuesday, Mar 13, 2012 at 13:48
G,day Mark,
Yep same vehicle, same year.
My manual (Ellery's) makes no mention of the relay location.
I would expect it to be on the LH side as that is where the Glow Plugs are and also the electrics. However the fuel filter is on the RH guard.
As I understand the timer operation, its timing period is governed by a temperature sensor on the engine and if that were faulty it would affect the timing.
FollowupID:
755747
Follow Up By: Gnomey - Tuesday, Mar 13, 2012 at 14:36
Tuesday, Mar 13, 2012 at 14:36
Good point about the temp sensor Allan, thanks. Old fashioned garbage in, garbage out scenario. Will have it tested before blithely replacing the timer.
Understand your reasoning. At least one of us needs to find an auto sparky who knows exactly where the elusive relay resides. Clearly we aren't getting the right info/picture from the manuals. My picture is definitely showing the LH guard and as we both have the fuel filter on t'other side it's NQR. Have you run it past the LCOOL guys?
Cheers
Mark
FollowupID:
755748
Reply By: MarkLH69 - Monday, Mar 12, 2012 at 23:41
Monday, Mar 12, 2012 at 23:41
Thanks.
Glow plugs are new and battery is good.
Its done 440,000 Km and I suspect its could be a combination of fuel pump, injectors and perhaps some lost compression.
Having said that, tonight I tested it again from cold by powering up the glow plugs for about 15 secs with a jumper cable from the battery and it then started much quicker (still took a few seconds of cranking over, but thats ok).
If I could make it power the glow plus for longer it would start easier.
Perhaps the timer is at fault ? I guess the relay is ok .. if it only has one ?
It makes a few clicks so I thought it might have 2 relays and maybe the 2nd one might be gone. Some people say the voltage should drop to about 6v, I thought it was funny how the my voltage goes off to 0v for a few seconds and then comes back on again to 11-12v.
I think the relay is behind the glovebox, that where I hear the cllicking
Regards
Mark.
AnswerID:
480224
Follow Up By: mike39 - Tuesday, Mar 13, 2012 at 08:29
Tuesday, Mar 13, 2012 at 08:29
Depending on how the old girl has been maintained (particularly air filter) she could be low on compression at those k/m's.
Much white smoke on cold startup is a clue.
I know of a '95 troopy, works hard as a logging contractors truck, over 500k.km. Maintained like a baby though and still starts and runs like new on original injectors.
mike
FollowupID:
755724
Reply By: pop2jocem - Monday, Mar 12, 2012 at 23:51
Monday, Mar 12, 2012 at 23:51
I have found the easiest way of starting the 1HZ was to turn the key to glow, wait for the light to go out, count slowly to 5 and then crank it over. Works every time when starting for the 1st time also here in
Perth. My old beast has about 285,000 on the clock but I did the pump and injectors at about 200,000. Not for any other reason other than I thought it was about time and a mate of mine is a fuel injection fitter and he talked me into it...lol. Cleaned the exhaust up a bit but starting wasn't much different.
Cheers
Pop
AnswerID:
480226
Follow Up By: Member - Tour Boy ( Bundy QLD) - Tuesday, Mar 13, 2012 at 20:34
Tuesday, Mar 13, 2012 at 20:34
Hi Pop,
The way you wait 5 secs after the light goes out it what I was saying in my first reply. The light and the relays are on two seperate systems. Check the volt meter and you will see it rise at around 5 secs and you'll hear a click as
well.
FollowupID:
755789
Reply By: ltzgonow - Thursday, Mar 15, 2012 at 14:40
Thursday, Mar 15, 2012 at 14:40
Hi Mark, I had the earlier model troopie sold it at 430kms,original motor & head, it had this problem from around 200Ks, A sparkie quoted to replace the timer ( behind the glove-box ??) I wouldnt spend the $s. I found turn on engine watch light & listen for the relay to drop out, turn ( still on again plugs-only), do this for ten to twelve secs & then crank over, would almost always fire & start on the 2nd cylinder..some times in real cold weather I would crank it over FIRST for about 3 or 4 cylinders to loosen & lubricate. I spent most of my Kms in remote situations, a good spare batt & J-leads hardly ever needed. Good luck!
AnswerID:
480425