You Pay Big Bucks for a new 4WD,That can Tow and carry a good Load!..But!.

Submitted: Thursday, Apr 05, 2012 at 18:20
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Then you have to worry about transmission coolers if auto, is the gearbox strong enough to tow in top gear, if a manual, Do i need a chip?, Will it wobble all over the place if towing a van, How much do i need in towing aids?, If manufacters are going to state a load carrying capacity, and a towing capacity, then they should make sure this thing can tow and carry that weight ,All Day every day!.. With out spending a whole lot of extra money to make it do what it was supposingly designed to do!,I only say this as its seems especially noticable on this forum that every time someone gets a new rig, they ask a million questions on what needs to be done,to make it right, not critiscising them, but they should be able to load up, or hook up,with their rig and off.


Cheers Axle.
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Reply By: Member - Wamuranman - Thursday, Apr 05, 2012 at 18:54

Thursday, Apr 05, 2012 at 18:54
HI Axle,

You are probably right in some vehicles Axle – some of these dual cab utes are really not cut out IMHO for the towing they are rated at - like the one that jacknifed on the M1 last year. You only have to do a search on this forum for information on the clutch and gear box issues with the superseded BT50/Ford Ranger model.
But I guess the old saying is true – you get what you pay for. After owning 60series for 20 years we had to resort to buying a LC200TTD for towing (I am disappointed I never had the joy of owning an 80 series or 100 series).
But the LC200TTD is the quintessential example of a towing rig that lives up to expectations (the French would say - par excellence of towing). Recently towing 3.2 tonne trailer at high speed on a hot day I could not see the temperature gauge move.

On a LC200TTD you do not need to add transmission coolers or anything else as long as you drive according to specifications. The only accessories I need for towing 3.5 tonne caravan are towing mirrors and electric brakes. Nothing else – its stock standard and does the job beautifully with power to spare. The auto transmission does the job beautifully as well (in Sport mode) for towing. I use S4 for under 80 kph and S5 for over 80 kph. This allows the torque converter to lock up and keeps the transmission cooler. Never use S6 except in a long down hill grades. The important thing is to keep the torque converted locked up. It s important to know your vehicle and drive accordingly. I don't see it as a limitation that I can't (shouldn't) tow in S6 - thats an "overdrive" gear if you like for use when you are not towing.
Cheers


AnswerID: 482385

Follow Up By: MP - Thursday, Apr 05, 2012 at 21:10

Thursday, Apr 05, 2012 at 21:10
What is the ball weight on the van? If it is around the magical 10% say 350kg, plus a full load of fuel only leaves around 150kg for driver passengers and gear.

Mark
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Follow Up By: Member - Wamuranman - Thursday, Apr 05, 2012 at 21:22

Thursday, Apr 05, 2012 at 21:22
HI Mark,
Its not quite as bad as that. The GVM is 3300KG and the kerb weight (incl fuel) is 2700Kg. So there is 600Kg to play with. Our ball weight is under 350Kg and we stack most stuff in the van as the difference bewteen van ATM and Tare weight is 300Kg. So I am pretty sure we are not overloaded. But there is not a lot to play with. I have also removed the third row seats in the LC200 - and boy they are quite heavy.
Cheers


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Follow Up By: MP - Thursday, Apr 05, 2012 at 21:33

Thursday, Apr 05, 2012 at 21:33
Sorry, I thought the kerb weight was dry. Makes me wonder though, without the van(or with one) if you add a steel bull bar and winch, roof rack, drawer system etc etc etc how people go. It all adds up pretty quick.

Mark
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Follow Up By: Member - Wamuranman - Thursday, Apr 05, 2012 at 21:41

Thursday, Apr 05, 2012 at 21:41
Yes you correct in saying many Landcruisers would be overweight. But we chose not to fit a bullbar as we do not generally drive at dusk when you may hit a kangaroo etc. Bullbars also increase fuel consumption considerably on the LC200 from all reports. But if a steel bull bar with winch, drawers etc are fitted - mostly likely its over the limit. But you can increase GVM on LC200 to 3800Kg with suspension upgrades (cheapest to do before first registered).
Cheers
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Friday, Apr 06, 2012 at 09:50

Friday, Apr 06, 2012 at 09:50
Might sound like I am being a little picky but I think that is what Axle is on about. The LC 200 has bundles of power and every mod con known to mankind (including a very modern price tag...lol)so why should you have to get the GVM upgraded to do what most of us would buy that vehicle for???

To all have a happy and most of all safe Easter.


Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: Member - Wamuranman - Friday, Apr 06, 2012 at 10:31

Friday, Apr 06, 2012 at 10:31
Well I look at it in the opposite way Pop - why should a manufacturer build a vehicle so that buyers can fit 3/4 tonne of accessories to it ! I think the majority don't want steel bullbars, winch, drawers filled with heavy stuff, fridge, third battery etc etc. I find I can live quite happily with the LC2090 as is - in stock standard form. For the minority who need the extra GVM the option is there for a Lovells upgrade to take to 3800Kg. The only thing I wish Toyota would do is remove the 3rd row seats - what a waste of money and weight they are. They could be an option for buyers who need them to pay extra for on purchase. My gut feeling is the majority of people who buy LC200s do not have 5 or 6 children (if they did they probably couldn't afford toi buy one ...lol).
Cheers
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 10:44

Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 10:44
Wamuranman - is the kerb weight 2700 kg kerb weight a fugue you have determined with a weighbridge or the tar weight of your vehicle? The standard for measuring tare weight in Oz is with only 10 litres of fuel in the tank.



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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 10:46

Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 10:46
The second line of my last should start with - or the tare weight of your vehicle


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Follow Up By: Member - Wamuranman - Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 16:41

Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 16:41
HI Peter,

NO I have not weighed it. Just going on Toyota's own specifications as listed for new GXL.
Tare is 2590Kg and Kerb weight is 2700kg - a difference of 110kg.. which to me would be about the weight of 138litres of diesel given that diesel is lighter than water (138kg). So I assume kerb weight is with close to full tank of fuel. But I am happy to be corrected.
Cheers
Glen
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Reply By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Thursday, Apr 05, 2012 at 19:42

Thursday, Apr 05, 2012 at 19:42
That's why the Patrol was born Axle!! To fill that void !! :)) Michael
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Reply By: Member - Joe n Mel n kids (FNQ - Thursday, Apr 05, 2012 at 19:48

Thursday, Apr 05, 2012 at 19:48
the answer is so simple ...... the ones that post these questions did NOT buy a TOYOTA ...... so they are scared, very scared and so they should be ..
hahahaha
Cheers
Joe
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Reply By: splits - Thursday, Apr 05, 2012 at 20:23

Thursday, Apr 05, 2012 at 20:23
Axle
Most manufacturers do claim their cars will tow huge weights but if you contact them, not a dealer, on their customer service number or by email, they will usually tell you the advertised towing capacity is the maximum permissible in highway conditions and it should be reduced for rougher surfaces.

It is not easy to specify what those reduced capacities should be due to so many variables being involved so they don't normally do it. Land Rover is one company that will give you a figure when asked. In a reply to an email I sent on the Defender, they said the advertised 3500 kg comes down to a maximum of only 1500 kg off road and that is with the best possible type of brakes. It is even lower for other types.

Have a look through these two links on vehicle and caravan dynamics. When you look at what he says about tow ball weights, end heavy vans, mass, yaw inertia, stiffening rear suspensions only, tyre slip angles, weight transfer, pitching, snaking, the inaccurate 10% rule and heaven only knows what else, it is not hard to see where serious problems can develop. It certainly explains why some normally rock steady vans suddenly jack knife without warning. They just need a combination of the right speed and conditions to trigger it.

I would say if you discussed the type of towing you want to do with the car's manufacturer then bought a van to suit the car in those conditions, you should not have to modify anything. If you did then you would have every right to go back and ask the manufacturer to explain why.


http://www.caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/pdf/vehicle_dynamics_complete.pdf

http://www.caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/articles/caravan_dynamics_cw.pdf
AnswerID: 482392

Follow Up By: Jeff P - Friday, Apr 06, 2012 at 22:03

Friday, Apr 06, 2012 at 22:03
Buy a chevy silverado it does what the manufacturer claims no more spend it laughts at 200 series V8 diesels
Jeff
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Follow Up By: Member - Wamuranman - Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 06:17

Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 06:17
Hi Jeff,

Did you import your own or buy through the conversion place up at Gympie?
If you imported yourself, how difficult was the process?
Cheers
Glen
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Follow Up By: Jeff P - Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 09:05

Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 09:05
Hi Glen I bought it through AVS in melbourne it got too hard when I looked into importing myself and the conversion companies have got it tried up with the government it has to be a RAWS approved w/shop to carry out the conversion.
I know they do cost abit put but they tell me the engine is good for about 800000kms and I dont plan on upgrading !
Jeff
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Follow Up By: Member - Wamuranman - Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 09:31

Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 09:31
Thanks for the info.
Yes I like the fact they have the diesel built in partnership with Isuzu....in fact I think the engines are built in the Dmax plant. Also the Allison transmission would be hard to beat - every truckie knows how good they are. IMHO the Silverado is miles better than the F250.
Would love to get one one day - but its probably a year or two off at the moment. I've heard that they are more economical to tow with than a LC200TTD. Have you been happy with fuel consumption while towing? When you think about it they are about the same price as a LC Sahara TTD - but you get a lot more truck for the money.
Cheers
Glen
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Follow Up By: Jeff P - Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 16:04

Saturday, Apr 07, 2012 at 16:04
Glen I get about 18-22 litres to the 100 at 100klm/hr towing a 23' boroma about 3400kg and the cruise control works way better than the landcruiser trust me i have had quite a few turbo landcruiser's
Jeff
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Reply By: Ross M - Thursday, Apr 05, 2012 at 21:15

Thursday, Apr 05, 2012 at 21:15
I would think, only the people who believe the claims made by manufacturers would expect a vehicle to perform all as claimed. They are usually maximums and not practical everyday useage ratings so why would you expect them to so.

As mentioned in one comment. The ratings are for when everything is ok but there are so many variables in vehicle use and especially when towing a heavy van that an insurance factor of 100% backup is probably advisable.

If your vehicle weight is 2 1/2 ton, to tow any thing heavier than its own weight is expecting too much even though the tow rating is 3 1/2 ton. Even its own weight is pushing it.
You might get away with it for years but the potential for disaster is immense.
With modern vehicles being far more powerful and most braking systems also better people get lulled into a false sense of security when travelling.
All it means is you can have a crash far more sucessfully than ever before.

More and more people and manufacturers seem to think they have mastery over the laws of physics. The laws of Physics and the laws of Friction govern ALL, not silly humans. Unfortunately, peoples grasp of the realities hasn't developed with the technology they use/abuse.

Ross M
AnswerID: 482398

Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Friday, Apr 06, 2012 at 10:05

Friday, Apr 06, 2012 at 10:05
Agree completely Ross. The power available with vehicles like the new LC200 is awsome. I believe it has the tow rating of 3500 kg which I am told it does with ease as far as dragging that weight around. Go to a truck dealership and compare the build and specs of a truck with a similar load rating and note where that weight is carried. The Cruiser can legally have that same weight swinging around on a 50mm ball out the back and sit comfortably on 100kph. All good until things go pear shaped.

Cheers
Pop
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Reply By: The Landy - Friday, Apr 06, 2012 at 06:41

Friday, Apr 06, 2012 at 06:41
Some interesting points raised here. And as highlighted the maximum rated capacities are usually, if not always, based on optimum conditions. The other issue is that we are pushing boundaries in caravan size, and weights due to the inclusions that many are looking for today.

Apart from the safety aspect of ensuring the rig is suitable for the task at hand, which should be the main concern, there is the insurance aspect also when it all goes wrong. As someone has said earlier, I think we have been lulled into a false sense of security these days...

Food for thought...

Cheers, The Landy
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Follow Up By: splits - Friday, Apr 06, 2012 at 14:05

Friday, Apr 06, 2012 at 14:05
"The other issue is that we are pushing boundaries in caravan size, and weights due to the inclusions that many are looking for today. "


Very true Landy but that is where fifth wheelers come in. As Collyn Rivers said in one of those links I posted, the weight is carried over the axle of the tow vehicle instead of at the end of a long rear overhang. This makes them much more stable

It is interesting to read what he said in the vehicle dynamics link about big vans and tow ball weights. --- "10% is far too low for a seven metre with the lot but the 350kg limit generally precludes more" --- This means Cruisers and Patrols are not really suitable for vans of that size even though they have the power to pull them along easily.

This reminds me of the time many years ago when I was working for a bus company in a large country town. If one broke down fairly close to their workshop, they would flat tow it back on a solid bar with a 1958 FC Holden ute! It towed the bus supprisingly easily but could it hold if it got out of control? That is the question you have to ask yourself if you tow a large, particularly end heavy, van that is up near the maximum capacity of the tow vehicle.

It all comes down to the fact that no matter what you want to tow, there is a correct vehicle for it that will do the job safely with plenty in reserve. You just have to find it even if it means you can not match your favourite van with your favourite car.
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Reply By: GT Campers - Friday, Apr 06, 2012 at 13:09

Friday, Apr 06, 2012 at 13:09
They CAN hook up and go - but ever since the days of Henry Ford, there has been an accessories industry , and people who want to spend money to feed it ;)

AnswerID: 482436

Follow Up By: GT Campers - Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 08:19

Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 08:19
here was mention of off-road ratings vs on-raod ratings; all manufacturers claims are based on on-road use and often have max speed and towball limitations

I think Land Rover specifies a maximum off-road of 1000kg for Discovery. Very good advice/guideliens for anyone towing off-road IMO
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Follow Up By: Ozhumvee - Wednesday, Apr 11, 2012 at 08:17

Wednesday, Apr 11, 2012 at 08:17
Years ago I asked the same question of most 4wd manufacturers in Oz re the off pavement/dirt/off road towing capacities through their respective technical people as most don't publish such info except Landrover.
While it was very hard to actually get them to actually quote a figure most agreed that it was around the unbraked towing capacity which is around 750-1000kg but in actual fact is legally limited to 750kg.
Peter
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