No wonder people go overseas!

I am up to my neck in paperwork trying to complete travel permits, camping permits etc to travel in my own country, Anne Beadell Highway, a gazetted road.
This is ridiculous, 4 permits just to travel 1300kms!
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Reply By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 12:01

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 12:01
Hi Shaker

That is a fairly harsh statement, surely??

How can you be up to your neck in paperwork???

All that the permits ask is intended dates of travel, names of people travelling in your vehicle, vehicle registration number and the only one that requires a fee is $7 per night to camp in the Mamungari Conservation Park.

Also there are actually 5 permits that you will need, and most can be applied online.


Cheers



Stephen














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AnswerID: 482507

Follow Up By: Shaker - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 12:26

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 12:26
I don't think you should need any permits unless you are going to deviate more than the allowed 100m off the track.
Also it is hard to be accurate with dates, we want to leave as soon as the permits are issued, that seems to be an indeterminate amount of time.
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Follow Up By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 13:04

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 13:04
Hi Shaker

Only 2 permits are for travel through Aboriginal Lands, while the Spinifex Aboriginal people do not require any permits at all. The other 3 permits are 2 National Parks and 1 Department of Defence.

Most times it is easy to have a good idea when you will be travelling, but if for some unforscene cercumstances you were out with your dates, at least you could show them that you have done the right thing.

Like I said, the permits are free and if you do not have one and get caught out on Maralinga Tjarutja Aboriginal Lands without your free permits, the fine is $2000 plus $500 for each day that you remain on their land.

We are to pay for a drivers licence and we do do complain, yet permits that are free and there seems to be a fuss.

Do not get me wrong, I think it is crazy that we need permits, but they are there for a purpose.

It is a great drive, unreal scenery and you will have a ball. We are doing it again next year and I can not wait.



Cheers


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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 16:28

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 16:28
Hi Stephen,

Would you care to elaborate on the "purpose" of these permits?

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Allan

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Follow Up By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 18:30

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 18:30
Hi Alan

That would be one for the Government Officials to answer, as all I know is that you must apply for free and have 5 separate permits to travel the Anne Beadell and I have no idea why they are required, with the exception of the Department of Defence which still does testing on the Woomera Range, of which the first or last part of the highway depending on which way you travel falls within their boundary - which is Commonwealth Land rather than state.

Like I said, I do not approve of permits, and it is a matter of doing what is requested by the appropriate departments, like it or not. It will only need some senseless person or group to do something to ruin it for the rust of the Law abiding travellers and that will give them another excuse to close off another fantastic part of Outback Australia.

Lets face it, I know that a lot of people travel the Anne Beadell without permits, and you would have to ask them why they do not bother to get them, when there is enough written on many sites, including here on ExplorOz about what is required to travel many outback locations.


Cheers


Stephen
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 20:27

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 20:27
Why not just keep it simple?
It would be easier to levels of Desert Parks Pass, such as Basic Pass, Pass incl. Anne Beadell, Pass Incl Connie Sue etc etc. Let the State government distribute the fees to the relevant indigenous "owners".
Also get rid of the requirement for dates & just have a time period, 1 day, 2 days etc.
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Follow Up By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 20:36

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 20:36
Hi Shaker

That is a very good idea, but would have to be on a National Level, at the Connie Sue is 100% in WA, while the Anne Beadell crosses 2 state boundaries.

I hear loud and clear what you are on about, and I am the first to admit that even though I have had permits to travel some of our remote areas, the intended dates have been out for various reason, including good old mother nature closing all tracks due to very heavy rain.


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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 22:45

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 22:45
Hi Stephen,

Thanks for responding. I really was not just stirring, I thought you may have some idea of just what the permit system was intended to achieve.

As far as I can gather, it is not revenue raising as many are free. I gather that it is a deal struck with the indigenous people to allow them a degree of control over who enters their lands. But it seems to be simply an emotional dominance without providing any sort of scrutiny of character or behaviour of the traveller. As such it does the land owners no benefit other than a sense of power. However, the traveller is then burdened with a clumsy system which is highly constraining and often precludes travel to some areas simply because the permit provider either denies access or simply fails to respond to application.

Nobody could be more familiar with utilising the system than Mick and Connie of Beadell Tours yet they sometimes are unable to obtain desired permits, although they probably achieve better results than most applicants.

Then of course, having received the permits, the constraining travel conditions often make them inappropriate. It would be far better if travel sanction was subject to well defined and enforced general conditions to control the behaviour of travellers in these indigenous lands without issuing individual permits.

I have encountered a number of travellers, some regular, who because of the clumsy and uncoordinated permit system, simply travel without the benefit of permits and yet I know of none who have been prosecuted for travelling without permit. It suggests that my assumptions of the supposed values of the system is simply not delivering the intended benefit to the landowners. Without prosecutions however, there is little motive for reform so I guess it will continue with some travellers bothering to obtain permits and others just ignoring the need. For my part, I will continue to apply but will proceed without permit if it is not forthcoming or dated inappropriately.

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Allan

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Reply By: GT Campers - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 12:25

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 12:25
Be grateful you are able to travel these roads at all and always keep in mind that other people may have a slightly different opinion to 'my country' ;)

AnswerID: 482510

Follow Up By: Shaker - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 12:28

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 12:28
OK, our country & no, I'm not grateful, any more than I am being able to drive to work!
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Follow Up By: Member - Jack - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 16:47

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 16:47
I feel sure that those to whom we will pay our respects on ANZAC Day did not do so in defence of lands that needed permits and those that did not. Just one country. Not two flags .. just one.

I am one of those, and I resent needing permission to travel within my own country.

But as a dewmocracy, I will also respect those with a differing point of view, but I will not change mine.

Jack

The hurrieder I go, the behinder I get. (Lewis Carroll-Alice In Wonderland)

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Follow Up By: Capt. Wrongway - Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 15:23

Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 15:23
Jack ....... I agree with you 100%. IMHO it's fast becoming too easy in this country, to give in to the easy options. If the early settlers and the ANZACs did, we would'nt have a country at all.
Capt.
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Reply By: Member - mechpete - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 12:26

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 12:26
Shaker ,
its a sad day when you have to have permits to travel in our own country ,
that our taxes paid for hey !!
mechpete
AnswerID: 482511

Reply By: Hairy (WA) - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 13:23

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 13:23
Gday Shaker,
I agree.... permits, permission, you cant camp here, your not allowed to drive there!
The bloody fun police have gone mad!

Cheers
AnswerID: 482516

Reply By: Teejay - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 16:38

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 16:38
We need e-tags to travel on toll pads in some of our capitals. People do it every day. How is that any different? It's a privilege to be able to travel our outback as we do. So what if we need a few permits? If I had strangers travelling through my backyard I would like to know who they are and when hey would be there.

Some stations don't access at all.

TJ..
AnswerID: 482529

Follow Up By: Teejay - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 16:40

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 16:40
*toll roads, damn iPad.
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Follow Up By: Hairy (WA) - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 17:21

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 17:21
Gday TJ,
But if the government paid for and built that road through you back yard and supplied all the other infrastucture that access would then become public wouldnt it. Just like a farmer who owns property on either side of a road that leads to a town?

And as for the Stations....if its a government road going through they cant stop you haveing access, let alone request a permit.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Teejay - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 23:02

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 23:02
I agree with you on allowing public access through my backyard Hairy. Only fair enough after your taxes were used. I just want to know who is traveling through, why and for how long. No fee, just the details.
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Reply By: Member - lyndon NT - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 17:44

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 17:44
Things will be so much easier once we are all Micro Chipped!
Now is the only time you own
Decide now what you will,
Place faith not in tomorrow
For the clock may then be still

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AnswerID: 482539

Follow Up By: Hairy (WA) - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 17:49

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 17:49
Hahahahaha!!!!
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Reply By: Steve D1 - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 19:09

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 19:09
when I head off in January, no permits will be purchased unless there is a stand at the gate. I'm on holiday for gods sake. I don't have the time or care to spend my time and money,( i'm talking about internet and phone) while on holiday chasing down when and where i can drive this great country.
I've worked all my life, payd my dues, and will do what I want, where and when I want. other than saftey reasons, if there is a road/ track, it's there for me to use. I'ts not the dollars that bother me so much, although i'd like to see where they actually go, it's the hassle of dealing with backward government depts. Making things difficult for the sake of being difficult. thats exactly why i'm hitting the road, to get away from that crap.

Steve
AnswerID: 482549

Follow Up By: Member - Josh- Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 19:24

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 19:24
And attitudes like this will get us locked out of these places permanately, permit or not. So can I come and camp on your lawn, It's grass so I have a right to use. Is it really that hard.

Josh
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FollowupID: 757808

Follow Up By: Steve D1 - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 19:27

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 19:27
yes Josh, it really is

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Follow Up By: Member - Josh- Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 08:28

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 08:28
Stay home then
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FollowupID: 757847

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 09:20

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 09:20
Josh, it's a big country with a diverse population. We need to be able to travel unfettered on its access roads. We don't require people to obtain permits to travel down my suburban street or developed country road simply to get from one place or another. So why do we have to obtain a permit to travel through a road that passes through some declared indigenous land?

We accept migrants and visitors into Australia and allow them unhindered access to our territory don't we? None of us really "Own" the land anyway. We live on it and share it for the short time that we are alive. It belongs to the Universe, not us.

We have been battling with this "Aboriginal Problem" for a couple of hundred years and are now further away from a solution than when we started. Whilst we support this parochial attitude our society will continue to struggle with racial segregation and all its problems.

And those who speak of "driving through backyards" etc. are making rash and inappropriate expressions that have nothing to do with the real issue.

Josh, your signature line...."It's a big country but it's a small world" seems at odds with your "Stay home then" expression.

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Member - Josh- Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 10:16

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 10:16
The way I see it is that permits help to keep the idiots out. Attitudes like it's my country I'll go where I damn well please will only get us locked out these places permanately. A number of areas are locked already because people go to these places and leave their rubbish or treat the area with disrespect. Permits help to regulate who enters an area and there for reduce the chance of vandalism. We all pay to drive on our main roads, licence taxes, tolls etc. As stated most of the permits are free so just fill it out and do the right thing and keep these places open. How many people on here whinging about these permits have contacted their local council or parks and wildlife to get them change. A few people are saying there should not be set dates just a period of time to travel ie. 1 day 5 days etc. As a large community we have an influence to change these things if done right. Having the above attitude will not get these laws changed, just make it harder for the people who do the right thing.
"Josh, your signature line...."It's a big country but it's a small world" seems at odds with your "Stay home then" expression" I said stay at home, :if he doesn't want to fill out the permits and do the right thing, he should stay home.
It's a big country but it's a small world. We travelled 80,000 km around australia and bumped into the same people numeruos times in different locations. Not sure where you were going with it.
It's not that hard to do the right thing. If you can't do the right thing then maybe you should stay home or go somewhere that doesn't require a permit.. What is wrong with that statement????

Josh
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FollowupID: 757861

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 11:15

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 11:15
Josh, The transit permit application forms do not ask... "Are you an idiot?" and permits are granted regardless. They do not keep the idiots out. In general, anyone who applies is granted a permit so they do not regulate or reduce vandalism. In any case, those types inclined to act irresponsibly are unlikely to obtain a transit permit in the first place, knowing that there is negligible policing of permits so no effective enforcement.

The issue is that the transit permit system is not well organised. It can be difficult to determine which roads/tracks require permit and to whom and how to apply. The issued permit can be very restrictive as to travel dates making no allowance for unforeseen delays etc. Even if you have personally not experienced difficulties does not mean they do not exist. And yes, I have made representations to administration authorities, so does that give me licence to whinge here?

If employing permits makes aboriginal communities feel secure then so be it, but for goodness sake, require them to manage the system in a reasonable and consistent manner. If they are unable to do so, then the appropriate Government agencies should administer it on their behalf.

Josh, what I was referring to re "Small World" was with respect. it IS a Small World and we should all try and live within it harmoniously without segregation and with essentially common regulations. Pandering to Aboriginal communitie's' restrictive rules is not effective to mutually occupying this land any more than applying unreasonable rules to their movement or behaviour outside of their defined community areas.

Cheers
Allan

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Reply By: GT Campers - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 19:56

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 19:56
if you don't like the Indigenous/Gov't/etc requirements, don't go there. Simple!
AnswerID: 482553

Follow Up By: Shaker - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 22:00

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 22:00
Now why didn't I think of that!

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FollowupID: 757827

Follow Up By: Hairy (WA) - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 02:27

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 02:27
So where could you go?
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FollowupID: 757836

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 08:52

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 08:52
Not "simple" GTC, that expression is simplistic.... big difference.

Cheers
Allan

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Reply By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 20:20

Sunday, Apr 08, 2012 at 20:20
And everyone keeps telling me its a free country!! I suppose that is after you pay your taxes, levies, registrations, insurances and Permits!!! ;) Michael


Patrol 4.2TDi 2003

Retired 2016 and now Out and About!

Somewhere you want to explore ? There is no time like the present.

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AnswerID: 482556

Follow Up By: get outmore - Thursday, Apr 12, 2012 at 01:36

Thursday, Apr 12, 2012 at 01:36
its NOT a free country

we have freeDOMS more than most not as many as others

but its not a free country - never has been , never will be
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FollowupID: 758087

Reply By: Member - Richard H - West NSW - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 09:27

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 09:27
The issue of people driving through land that has been handed back to the traditional owners is fairly emotive.

I for one believe that as an Australian I should be able to travel where I like, with limitations be imposed. Sensible limitations such as flooding, private property, areas closed for research and defence purposes. The latter being because these of course can be danger areas.

But I cannot understand the need for a permit to pass through land that has been given to the traditional owners. What's the purpose of it?

Is it just to maintain a record of numbers? This can easily be done by using one or two of those strips that are place across roads to determine traffic flow.

Could it be to keep undesirable people away from the traditional owners? Well they have failed in this regard haven't they? Just look around some of the settlements.

Or is it merely to provide people with a job, and give someone a degree of authority?

Well?
AnswerID: 482575

Follow Up By: garrycol - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 12:18

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 12:18
Why is that we can accept that pastoral lease holders and owners may or may not put restrictions on crossing their land (gazetted road or not) yet some seem to have issues when the owners are indigenous we seem to think we can go where we want without restriction or gaining approval.

It is clear to me many do not respect/accept indigenous ownership of land and their right to choose who goes on it.

Time to get over it.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 12:40

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 12:40
Give me one, just one, confirmable reference to a pastoral leaseholder legally placing restrictions on using a gazetted road passing through their leasehold.

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: garrycol - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 13:23

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 13:23
CSR
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Follow Up By: Hairy (WA) - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 14:21

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 14:21
The Canning Stock route is a stock route not a road...........i
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FollowupID: 757866

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 15:01

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 15:01
From the Four Wheel Drive Council of australia website...................

"If you simply wish to travel the Canning Stock Route itself, and have no intention whatever of deviating from it, (and that includes for the purposes of camping at night, or collecting water from any of the wells, etc. located off the track), then you can do so without the need for a permit. However, the moment you actually leave the vehicular track, you run the risk of entering an Aboriginal Site. You never know when you might wish to do that, either to visit a site just off the track, or for emergency reasons. The best course of action therefore is to apply for, and be in possession of a Permit that covers you for all of the areas that you may wish to visit."

Furthermore, the permits referred to are not from pastoral leaseholders.

Want to try again?

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: garrycol - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 15:41

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 15:41
But the owners of one section will not allow trailers on there - that is them placing restrictions - if you want to to travel on this piece of public road you have to abide by their restrictions - just as you do if you want to travel on some indigenous land else where. if you don't like the rules - don't go there.
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FollowupID: 757872

Follow Up By: fisho64 - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 22:44

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 22:44
your clutching at straws Garry.
its not a gazzetted road as per your example, and besides is it clear that the pastoral holders can actually enforce no trailers?
On top of that there is a clear reason why they think there should be no trailers. This garners much more respect than just "because".

It saddens me a little that people blindly accept what the government says is good for you just "because". And that is a more general comment than just on this subject.
Just like sheep.
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FollowupID: 757917

Follow Up By: get outmore - Thursday, Apr 12, 2012 at 01:40

Thursday, Apr 12, 2012 at 01:40
Snake Hill - Walling road , locked gate at station boundary and i believe equinox found one on his last trip
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FollowupID: 758088

Reply By: Kris and Kev - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 10:20

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 10:20
Wait until you travel up the Dampier Peninsular. Even if you just want to enter a town, sorry, a community, to spend money, like get fuel; you must first go to the office to get a permit. At Kalumburu, in the Kimberly, you need two permits and pay $50, just to drive through the town and yes, it is like any other town/suburb the entire infrastructure is paid for by our taxes. What do you get for the $50? A tourist brochure!
I think the argument most of us have is that we just want equal rights, no matter where we go. We will still want to go to these places, but we have the right to feel upset when we are treated differently.
And remember (I think it is the same in all states and territories) in common law anyone can enter my land (yard) and go right up to my front door and remain there until I tell them to leave. They do not require a permit and if they are caught they cannot be fined for not having a permit.
Please don’t say, well stay home then, it is just our rights we are talking about.
It is still a beautiful country and we are all so lucky. Kevin

AnswerID: 482581

Follow Up By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 20:27

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 20:27
Hi Kevin,

I agree with your sentiments. I am Australian but not indigenous and whilst out of respect I have always obtained my permits there certainly is no sense of equality and whilst we are all Australian it is not a land for one and all. The laws also favour Australians differently - I don't feel a sense of equality or fairness either.

Kind regards
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FollowupID: 757907

Reply By: fisho64 - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 12:17

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 12:17
We used to laugh at the Russians needing a "travel permit" 20 years ago.

Now we need them and they dont-go figure.......

People above have used the expression above "well dont go, stay home etc" "if I camped on your lawn blah blah"
In our world if the government want to build a road thru your house then tough shit, it gets resumed.
Why not in these areas where there is a public road?

One thing heading into these "communities", completely another when its a road built with public money.
AnswerID: 482582

Reply By: get outmore - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 14:15

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 14:15
at least you can easily find out and get these permits online

most of WA is taken up by pastoral leases and every road and track off the main road has no entry signs

no one makes a fuss about that though
AnswerID: 482590

Follow Up By: fisho64 - Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 10:36

Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 10:36
not public funded roads are they, somewhat of a difference between a farmer putting a road in and the government.

Name one place other than the examples above where the Gov has put a road thru WITHOUT resuming the land for it?
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FollowupID: 757936

Follow Up By: get outmore - Wednesday, Apr 11, 2012 at 18:42

Wednesday, Apr 11, 2012 at 18:42
Aboriginals actually own the land hence the permits to traverse the roads.
Pastoralists do not. They just hold a grazing lease over it.
end result of either is restricted/no access
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FollowupID: 758055

Follow Up By: fisho64 - Thursday, Apr 12, 2012 at 16:49

Thursday, Apr 12, 2012 at 16:49
yes they own it, as do farmers with freehold.
But the gov doesnt put roads thru farmers land and allow them to issue permits.
They resume the land at the price they deem it to be worth.
It appears above that there maybe some of these roads thru private land, Im guessing old roads from way back I doubt they do that on your average australians land these days.
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FollowupID: 758117

Reply By: Bazooka - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 14:19

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 14:19
According to the 'public money' logic people living in government housing shouldn't havethe same rights to privacy etc that private owners do and everybody should be able to get the aged pension. Nobody is free to do whatever they want, wherever they want irrespective of whether the "taxpayer" has funded a road, building, or service or not. When you enter a national park you are required to observe certain rules, and in some cases pay for the privilege via a permit. When you drive on public roads you need a permit called a licence. The list is endless.

It amazes me that people will spend hours and big$ preparing for trips but not be prepared to observe the law and get permits to pass through someone else's land.


WA Permit info

"The permit system is designed to help protect the privacy of Aboriginal communities, preserve Aboriginal heritage and culture, safeguard the natural environment and to promote visitor safety."
AnswerID: 482591

Follow Up By: Hairy (WA) - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 15:22

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 15:22
I cant see the comparison between a road and public housing?
Public housing and its land is owned and maintained by the government and rented back at a cost.........that gives the tenant the right to deny access and the government the chance to recoupe their costs. Black and white people are allowed to apply for tenancy.
Roads through communities are funded by all Australians and open access is only granted to black Australians........not a certain family, a certain colour.
Isnt that fairly close to the definition to racism?
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FollowupID: 757870

Follow Up By: fisho64 - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 15:45

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 15:45
"According to the 'public money' logic people living in government housing shouldn't havethe same rights to privacy etc that private owners do"

They dont.
Nobody can enter my house every 3 months and check whether Ive punched a hole in the wall or had a dump on the carpet and left it there.

My feeling is the community/land itself is one thing but the public funded roads are another.

If the Government comes to my place and says "we're need to put a road thru your garden", can I say "sure but Im going to put a permit system in place and everyone will need to apply a week before"?

Nup, they just resume it a la "The Castle".
Government (ALL australians) invests millions in a road that could tomorrow be "refused all permits to travel" at a whim.
Not a good investment in infrastructure.
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FollowupID: 757873

Follow Up By: Bazooka - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 15:47

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 15:47
Land rights and various other special laws passed by Australia's parliaments and endorsed by courts have nothing to do with racism. The explanation for the permit system is reasonable and the system is hardly onerous.
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FollowupID: 757874

Follow Up By: Shaker - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 16:17

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 16:17
I don't need a licence to access Public Roads ...... I need a licence to drive a motor vehicle.


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FollowupID: 757876

Follow Up By: Bazooka - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 17:13

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 17:13
Laws in this country aren't made on whims Fisho. Providing access roads, infrastructure and services for people who live in remote communities is reasonable in my book. That's what advanced societies do.

The permit system is hardly the huge problem a few of you are suggesting. Nor is it unreasonable. At least not to me.

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FollowupID: 757880

Follow Up By: Hairy (WA) - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 17:26

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 17:26
I agree....."Providing access roads, infrastructure and services for people who live in remote communities is reasonable " but then denying access to people of the wrong colour is racist in my book?
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FollowupID: 757882

Follow Up By: fisho64 - Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 12:55

Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 12:55
"Laws in this country aren't made on whims"

sadly in some cases they are.

classic examples are the marine parks pushed by green lobby groups. Pollys run scared and throw together a set of rules which will never achieve what they are purportedly for.
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FollowupID: 757943

Reply By: Bigfish - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 16:43

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 16:43
Well all you do-gooders from down south can come up to where I live and experience the permit system.
I want to go to the beach for a swim...permit please.
I want to buy some beer for Friday night footy game...permit please.
I would like to drive out on a gazetted highway(the only road out of town,)...permit please.
I have been invited to see mates 100klm out of town on cattle station...permit please.
I work for a company servicing remote communities...permit please.
Have been invited by traditional owner to shoot pigs doing damage on his land....permit please.

The huge majority are for permits to drive on tax-payer funded roads..NO DEVIATION OFF THE ROAD!!

The permits cost nothing but that means that you cant decide of a Friday afternoon to pack up and visit friends!! Permits take days to organise...often weeks.
The only road/gazetted highway out of town requires you to get a permit even if you are driving out for holidays. Permit serves absolutely no purpose.
Oh yes...here is the beauty of this racist permit system...If you are white, have lived here for 20 years and only intend to drive to the beach...permit please.
HOWEVER if you are an aboriginal who lives in say Essendon,VIC...you are free to drive up here and go wherever you want! Why? Because your skin is black!!
No wonder people feel like prisoners in their own land. It may be aboriginal private land but hey ..who provides the schools, houses, roads, bores, power, sitdown money, free medical/dental, etcetc? Our taxes.
AnswerID: 482602

Follow Up By: Bazooka - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 18:13

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 18:13
Prisoners in their own land? Tommyrot. Racist permits sytems? Tell that to our parliamentarians and judges. Our taxes? Better check your local football side fella. Aborigines and their culture make a huge contribution to this country or do you think tourists are lining up overseas to visit your house and buy your art?

It seems you've paid one too many visits to the National Front website - or did you "think" it all up yourself?

One of the most obnoxious posts I've read on here, and that's saying something.
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FollowupID: 757889

Follow Up By: Bigfish - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 18:32

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 18:32
Having lived amongst the communities for over 15 years and working in them I can tell you bazooka that these are facts.

The permits for travel in Arnhem land ONLY apply to whites....TRUE..
Your ignorance is understandable.

When only white people have to have a permit and not black people..isnt that rascist?
I know many good aboriginal people who also find the system is unfair!
I think my obnoxiousness is only surpassed by your ignorance.
Try living in our shoes before typing ignorant raves. You have no bloody idea mate!
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FollowupID: 757892

Follow Up By: Nutta - Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 19:06

Monday, Apr 09, 2012 at 19:06
Are you aboriginal bazooka? You're mighty upset.
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FollowupID: 757899

Follow Up By: fisho64 - Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 01:14

Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 01:14
without being a smart ass, bazooka where do you live?
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FollowupID: 757921

Follow Up By: The Landy - Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 13:44

Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 13:44
Perhaps if we all spent some time in each others shoes, both white and black, we'd all have a very different view and opinion - and maybe a beeter understanding of each other's concerns and problems!

Not a bad idea if it helped Australia advance...
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FollowupID: 757945

Reply By: Member - Richard H - West NSW - Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 07:59

Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 07:59
We travelled from the N.T. into W.A. on the Central Road, and doing the right thing I applied for permits.

As we drove into W.A. we encountered graders and a water truck fixing the road, and it was in one of the areas where a permit was essential.

I stopped and had a yarn with one of the road team. He worked for the W.A. Dept. of Main roads, not the Oodnagallarbi Land Council or any other Aboriginal corporation.

So it was tax payers money that was repairing the road, yet as a tax payer I had to have permission to travel on a road that I contributed to.

The whole ridiculous set-up merely promotes racism.

Oh yes, I wasn't asked once for my permit/s, by anyone in authority, either Aboriginal or non Aboriginal, in either the N.T. or W.A. So I don't waste my time these days, I just go.
AnswerID: 482656

Reply By: The Landy - Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 09:37

Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 09:37
I’ll leave the debate over the rights, and wrongs of a permit system to others...

However, being a practical type I would suggest those that elect to travel without the necessary permits check their vehicle insurance policy documents or PDS.

Many (if not most) insurance policies have wording that effectively says you will be covered for accidental loss anywhere you are legally entitled to be... No permit might have an insurance company arguing you weren’t legally entitled to be there if you can’t produce a permit that says you were, and therefore no insurance cover in the event of a claim. May not be an issue for some, on the other hand the next vehicle in a remote area that goes up in flames due to a Spinifex fire underneath won’t have been the first.

Food for thought, and do you own due diligence...

Cheers, The Landy
AnswerID: 482665

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 10:34

Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 10:34
Hi Landy,

I don't want to drag you into the merits of the permit system but you have exposed a very critical issue relating to the administration of permits, i.e. the insurance factor.

Case Study: You are headed up The Great Central Road, one of your necessary permits is limited to two specific days. You suffer a vehicle breakdown which delays you such that to continue will cause you to travel outside of the permit approval time. You are in the middle of nowhere with no way to contact the permit issuing authority. So how does your vehicle insurance stand? Food for thought indeed and due diligence will not help you.

See my point about the need for overhaul of the permit system?

Cheers
Allan

Member
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FollowupID: 757935

Follow Up By: The Landy - Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 12:05

Tuesday, Apr 10, 2012 at 12:05
Perhaps in the case of your example it might come down to a question of intent, having the necessary documentation that expires due to unforeseen circumstances differs from failing to comply at all. I’m sure there are many permutations or case studies that could be made covering a wide range of insurance possibilities and eventualities and as with most things legal, intent is often a key consideration.

Mind you, in my original post I’m not suggesting you wouldn’t be covered if you elect to travel without a permit. However, if by not obtaining a permit you are not legally entitled to be there you have most likely heightened the risk of not being covered in the event of a claim. I understand the permit system is an emotive issue for many people, and for differing reasons, but why run the risk of voiding your insurance whilst that is the current requirement?



Cheers, The Landy
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FollowupID: 757940

Reply By: Tonyfish#58 - Wednesday, Apr 11, 2012 at 15:25

Wednesday, Apr 11, 2012 at 15:25
My Trip to Haifa on Baha'i Pilgrimage at the end of the year has a hundred times more paperwork than any of my Australian trips ever required.

Give me the paperwork in Australia any day :-)

I have to admit though, it is getting far to over regulated, especially trying to get into National Parks if FNQ. Its getting harder and harder to plan a trip to these parks.

Cheers Tony
AnswerID: 482768

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