1080 baiting

It actually breaks down relatively quickly, but it depends very much on the environment, it breaks down quicker in damp or wet conditions.
Suggest the OP do a Google search & get facts!
It is a hideously inhumane product that causes a long & distressing death & is banned in most countries.

One of our dogs was baited with a fox bait set at nearby a Little Tern rookery.
Some mongrel threw it over our fence, it was the most horrible thing to watch an animal die that way.
My wife and 2 girls were in tears and so was I.
The spinless ass wipe got about 8 more in our village during the following week.
Mate if in any doubt keep your 4 legged mate on a lead.

Sodium Monoflouro-acetate is a naturally occurring neuro-toxin found primarily in the plant species Oxylobium and Gastrolobium in WestAust and limited areas in the NT.
Extraction from these plants is slow and difficult even under lab conditions so all Sodium Monoflouro-acetoate used now is synthetically manufactured in a number of Asian countries.

As an aside, the product name "1080" is actually the product registration number from the Lab where it was first produced synthetically in the USA many years ago..

1080 is a neuro-toxin (it affects the central nervous system) and causes total shut-down of that system. There is NO known antidote. This is what causes death, usually fairly painlessly for the target animal. I agree that watching a 1080 poisoned animal die can be fairly traumatic for those observing but research from reputable WA Ag dept scientists indicates that the animal suffers minimal pain, far less than with strychnine and infinitely less than a non fatal rifle shot or a trap.

Baits can come in a number of forms, the most common being meat injected with the poison at the correct rate (And this varies depending on the target species, dogbaits are dosed the highest, then feral cat and fox) and then dried to about 25-30% of its original weight.
Feral cat baits are usually made up into a skinned sausage to give a bit of longevity as excess moisture will reduce the effectiveness in the feild1080 is also used for rabbit control in WA where the poison is vacuum impregnated inot oats and laid as a trail (This is relatively safe for your pets as most dogs (except those breeds that will eat anything) wont touch raw grains. Some experimental work using 1080 poisoned oats for feral pig eradication has also been carried out in WA.
There has been a large amount of reaserch done into the effects of 1080poison on the various native species (particularly in WA) indicating that most native species in WA can survive much large levels than the same species in the other states of Australia. It is theorised that this is because the WA animal species have been exposed to the Oxy/Gastrolobium plants (commonly called the WA Poison Plants) for hundreds, perhaps thousands of generations and have over that time built up an increased tolerance (not Immunity as overdosing will still cause death.

What Can I do to limit the chances of my fourlegged mate being poisoned.
1. ALWAYS fit a well fitting muzzle and preferably a lead in the Bush.
2. Train him to be instantly obedient (DROP IT means Do It Immediately)
3. Take notice of signs indicating "Poison Laid" even if the sign is old and faded there may still be an occasional bait that is still active
4. Landholders are required by law to erect signs if baits are being laid but not every few feet along a fence ar row of trees. The signs may be up to 2-300mtrs apart so have a good look around before camping in that site.

A lot of good information can be found at agric.wa.gov.au/1080poison particularly relevant to WA.

Sorry that this is so long but it's important that you know a bit about this subject.

Disco
(who spent 20+ years using this product in WA (more or less successfully)


Mr Moderator You may wish to transfer this elsewhere within the forum.
You have my permission if you wish to do this.

Thanks for the link Disco (the last bit didn't work)

Lots of good information in there. Don't know how I haven't found the info before.

I will use this information in my planned Facebook Campaign to have this poison banned in WA. (not a matter of if, but when)

Cheers
Alan

Thanks for the info Disco.

I found this post really informative and easy to understand. As a travelling dog owner I appreciate you sharing your knowledge because there has been a lot about 1080 I have wondered about.

I understand the need for control measures, such as 1080, and accept it is literally part of the landscape now.

Hoo roo,
eighty matey Steve

Equinox,
Without questioning your Facebook program re outlawing 1080, could you clarify the ideas behind it for me please.

At the current time there is NO more effective or, in my opinion, humane method of controlling pest or vermin available ....well sort of available anyway given MH's post further down from here.

When I stopped working in this field 10 years ago, all these extremely onerous restrictions were about to come into force and since then, again in my opinion, there has been an explosion of wild dog, (not necessarily "Dingo" but domestics gone feral) and feral cats throughout the ag and pastoral lands.
If we don't do something about these two ferals there will be no small marsupials, lizards or ground birds for our kids or grand kids to see anywhere other thai in a museum or Zoo

Proper research and absolutely correct application techniques are the only methods which will ensure that 1080 should remain available for vermin and pest extermination for the foreseeable future.

If and or when someother methods become more economically or environmentally available I may see a case for the removal of 1080, but till then I'll support the SAFE use of this product

Regards

Disco
aka Tony

don't wish to enter into the debate about the ethics of 1080 baiting but i would suggest that equinox has never had to deal with stock that has been savaged by wild dogs. many of our pastoralists are against the wall and can't run sheep due to dogs. 1080 isthe most efficient bait available at present times. if you want an example of cost to industry try $22 million in the queensland cattle industry. don't forget most of these dogs aren't even true dingoes but crossbreed mongrels that can breed more often and have larger litters than a true dingo.
i wouldn't take a dog into any pastoral region but if you choose to make sure it is muzzled and not allowed to roam.
meanwhile i would suggest that people don't mention they want 1080 banned or they may find themselves getting very short shift from pastoralists.

Hi Tony,

First up I would point out that I have immediate first hand knowledge of what this poison does to the pet dog. You mention that it is "usually fairly painless", this has not been my experience.

There are two sides to every dispute and I will take the side of the pet owner who likes to take their pet with them on their travels (and secondary - as one who does not like animals to suffer)

Apart from the central desert regions, in every single area I have recently traveled there are indications of baits being laid out. Every single area!!!!

This means that I have to be careful with the dog. I don't like this, I want the dog to run free, like I do. Call me a responsible dog owner I guess, who would like more freedom for his dog, by way of not having to worry about picking up a bait. (In the bush I mean, I don't let it run free at home)

Obviously 1080 is a very effective way to control dog's, foxes and cats. There is no doubt to that.

Last year a pastoralists told me there is another bait which does have an antidote. This may be a compromise for me if it is correct, but still may not satisfy the RSPCA or PETA.

Even if I don't get it banned at least it will make more information available. For instance I have seen 1080 signs that are lying on the ground or look like they have been there for 10 years - Does anyone ever takes signs down? Are all users of 1080 following all the rules to the letter?

I realised this would be a monumental mission for one person when I decided to take this on last year, and it won't be quick as I have a few other projects on the go too!!! It's just that your link has been what I have been looking for, not sure how I missed it now. I will just need to express my views to the relevant government departments and extract replies from them. I am familiar with Freedom of Information laws and more than likely will need to go down that path on this issue to. Once I have all the information I can gather I will put it on Facebook and see how this information is seen there. In Perth recently some people put the subject of late night weekend trains on Facebook and 35000 people agreed (liked). Almost instantly the Premier reacted to this. If I can initiate a bit of discussion then great!!

Ricochet mentions below that the cost to the cattle industry is very significant. Surely with that kind of money there could be a more humane biological control researched, it certainly could employ a lot of shooters as that's a lot of money.

I wrote my first followup however this is the "seriously" edited version as I think I have expressed my opinion how it stands now, and will say no more on the issue here as there is no point in pursuing stalemates.

Cheers
Alan

Hi Alan,
Thanks for your reply explaining your ideas.
I too have seen a pet die from 1080, not his fault but mine and I agree that it's fairly traumatic and definitely something I want to see happen again.

It may surprise you that I also think along those same lines in regard to the freedom to travel freely with or without a dog but we are not trying to make a living out in the bush as the farmers and pastoralists are or trying to retain all the native species as others do, and that makes a difference to how we relate to the use of poisons in the bush.

My percieved enthusiasm for using 1080 at this time is that there is nothing else that does the job it needs to do as effectively at the present time. It's the best of a few poor options

There is another product, Pindone, which may be the one you mention.
It's an anticoagulant which requires relaying every day for a number of days (a huge time requirement on a large property) and it is not as effective or selective on the target animals There is an antidote and again the time requirements in using it is huge.
Pindones biggest problem is that almost totally non selective and many non target animals may be killed..

I'm totally against facebook campaigns for issues relating to agricultural practices, city living is so far removed from the reality of rural life that the majority of cityites have no concept of what actually goes on. I suspect that there would be a lot of warm fuzzy reactions about the poor little bunnies being killed and the little wooly lambs having their tails cut off and a bit of skin being removed from around the bum without ever having seen the damage done to newly planted trees by rabbits (1000seedlings @$1.00ea taken in 1 night on 1 property) or the pain and suffering of a flyblown sheep or lamb because the city people consider the Mules operation cruel and sadistic and have had it banned.

On that point, we will have to disagree but remain respectful of each others opinions.

Regards

Tony

Equinox, in the other 40 hrs of the week my wife and I run a reasonably succesful rehab centre for the rehabbing of sick and injured raptors,we have done so for the past 18 years , with the constraints of successive councils were forced to find a property in the hills of perth with enough acreage to build our aviaries . Foxes had a minimal impact on our lives until a few years ago, we lost all our education animals in a two week period to a family of foxes, i had to use 1080 to remove them , to date 26 have been destroyed . In our rehab we have found that your easily available Talon , bromakil and other brodiafacom and related poisons kill more of the raptors and reptiles around with secondary symptoms than 1080. in the early days with 1080 i used the sausage and dried meat baits , one morning i witnessed a monitor disturbing the buried bait,she swallowed it whole , she has a distinctive tail, she breeds quite happily here and has done so susequently after devouring the bait. We will still use 1080 there are signs all around my property warning of the dangers of the bait , all that is required when walking animals around the fire breaks of my property(which is un fenced ) is to have your animals on a lead. now that things are still dry here there are always foxes around, footprints are on the sandy parts of the fire breaks where they have come to investigate I imagine we will kill at least another 6 or 7 foxes before the rains again come and the rabbits start breeding .
regards
stuart

Hi Alan (equinox)

You have probably read the recent article “A new threat posed by foxes” in the Autumn 2012 edition of Landscope magazine, produced by the Department of Environment and Conservation.

It is prefaced:

“The introduced red fox is an efficient killer that has inflicted untold damage on much of Australia’s marsupial fauna. Recent research on rock wallabies has shown that the mere presence of foxes can be equally as damaging as the act of predation itself. But solutions are at hand”

Extract from this article:

“Will we bait for ever? - - baiting is a holding action, not an endless one. In the meantime, baiting needs to be seen as an essential action required to keep vulnerable species alive and well, pending the day when a more sustainable solution inevitably arrives.

Meanwhile, 1080 poisoning is less harmful to native species than poisons used previously.

Do you really have a better alternative solution?

Motherhen

Sorry but if your only reason for not wanting 1080 baits is due to wanting to take a dog out bush
- thats not a good enough reason

the destruction of feral animals out bush is essential and if it means inconvienienceing some people they should take it greatfully

as for facebook campaighns - if anything they do a chosen subject a disservice
due to the nature of the followers of these things

think KONI 2012 supposedly the biggest thing ever which was immediatly forgotten about

the reason the late night trains thing was taken on was just due to common sense.
its well proven a major instigator of late night trouble is the innability of people to be able to leave the city while very drunk and just wanting to get home but there are no Taxis
I myself have been saved by the late services otherwise i would have had no option but to try and sleep somewhere or walk the 22km home

What if your kid pick picked up a bait, would that be a good enough reason to ban a poison with no antidote??

Shaker - do you supervise your young child so he/she does not run across the street into the path of a car, fall off a cliff, swallow Grandma's pills, or walk into a fire? Same quality of parental supervision - and the finding and picking up a bait on crown land or in a national park is the least likely to occur.

My children are far from young & no, I wasn't a "helicopter" parent.
I am not suggesting that my scenario would be commonplace, but you must admit that it is feasible as young children tend to put most things in their mouth.
As far children being supervised whilst camping, that is also debatable.

A kid picking up one bait and putting in their mouth or even chewing on it would not come to any harm. the human level of tolerance is a lot higher than what is in one bait. the possibility of a human ingesting enough 1080 from baits to cause harm is near enough to impossible.
I have been involved in dog baiting and bait manufacture for 8 years so do know a bit so am talking with first hand experience.
As for letting your dog run free, this is part of the problem. "my Fluffy wouldn't attack sheep" works till you present the owner with the collar of the dog you shot while it attacked sheep soon cancels that argument.

Thanks for the clarification Ricochet


' "my Fluffy wouldn't attack sheep" works till you present the owner with the collar of the dog you shot while it attacked sheep soon cancels that argument.'

I've seen that before too.

Mh

g'day Steve.. nice name....

yeh she will always be on lead, don't really trust her off. A muzzell will need to be a part of her kit, as an extra security device. Just don't get how it can be stated for such a finite period of time, especially in a residential area, where general public are not aware of the toxicity or potential issues with this type of baiting.. Spoke to my vet and he had seen a few cases of poisoning from these baits. It shouldn't be allowed in residential areas.

Steve

In WA 1080 is not allowed within 1km (from memory) of any residentual areas, there are less hazardous baits (anticoagulants which require a constant daily uptake) for use in these areas.

As a further point of interest there are a number of other toxins that are illegally used for baiting pets in residentual areas.
High on the list are snailbaits of many types which have a similar reaction to 1080 when eaten But vomiting is quite likely to save your pet.
Another is Strychnine, probably the worst offender Non soluble long lasting and doesn't readily break down.
In mining towns there is always the possibility of Cyanide nicked from treatment plants

Disco.

my current local area is Baulkham Hillls local area. excelsior park to be precise. don't know how htey get away with it

"don't know how htey (sic) get away with it"

By following the rules I suppose - guidelines on its use in NSW here

NSW - 1080 bait user guidance fact sheet

Can understand why some people dont like it - but if you are a fan of native wildlife and not foxes ...works a treat.

Cheers
Greg

Different rules in WA it would seem. CALM use aerial baiting extensively in National Parks and drop it out of a light aircraft to cover 1000's of acres. It is obviously not tied to a peg nor picked up next morning (or at all for that matter as they have no way of knowing where each bait it located and some wildlife/birds move it anyway) Keep the dog on a lead is the only safe way. It is a nuisance, but better than a dead dog!

Hi Blown4by

Crows certainly can move baits around. I don't know, but i suspect that baiting in pastoral areas is also by bait drop. Leads and muzzles are the best safeguards.

Mh

blown4by,
Not nitpicking but CALM no longer exists, it's now the Dept for Conservation and the Environment AKA DEC.
In regard to the aerial baitlaying it not a case of "grabbing a bucket of baits and just chucking them out willynilly.

Before an aerial baiting program commences it must be approved by the DEC office for that area. On approval a grid line of reference is established and a flight path grid is plotted from that grid line into the aircraft GPS system to give a laying rate of ONLY one (1) dried meat bait per Square Kilometre.
The flight is heavily monitored at all time and all baits must be laid according to the proposal specifications

Despite the general populaces idea that aerial baiting is saturation bombing there'is not that much 1080 being chucked around in reality in pastoral/crown lands. It's only the huge numbers that make it look like it, but it is still only 1 bait per Sq Km

Hope this helps.

Disco.

Whether it is called CALM or whatever it is still the same dog by a different name. Whether the Contractor lays one bait per square km & uses grid lines or not the fact remains that the baits are not tied to a peg and they are moved by two & four legged wildlife which was my point.

"Aside from the physical pain endured over the many hours before death, the terror, fear and anxiety felt by these animals is unimaginable"

Yep - but if you are going to utilise emotive terms then best they be applied to both sides of the story...here is a dead Western Ringtail Possum (one of two within 10 metres of each other) killed by a Fox.

Image Could Not Be Found

Western Ringtail Possums are a listed threatened species. Aside from the physical pain endured by this animal prior to death, the terror, fear and anxiety felt by these animals when attacked by Foxes is unimaginable. How many native animals would one Fox kill during its life time? Better one Fox suffers than 100s of native animals dont you think?

Cheers
Greg

Did you read the word "wallabies" in my post?

Hi Anon

Western Brush Wallabies have increased in numbers in WA where 1080 baiting has been carried out - they must love it!! Overall net benefit from using 1080 for native wildlife. Its a fact.

Cheers
Greg

Shaker - you really need to check your "facts"

the wallabies killed by 1080 were in fact target species in

............................ Tasmania (king island to be excact)

Tasmania has NO naturally ocuring 1080 and no animals there have any kind of natural immunity which is why it was used

as for talk about if its inhumane

well then why dont you try grabbing a fox or wild dog and have a go at stroking it to death if it bothers you

its effective and as close as we can get to a poison that kills only tartget species thats as far as my care factor gos

Erad,
Thanks for the update re the new products, how expensive are they going to be, how target selective are they and how much harder will it be to use in LARGE scale areas (1000of sq km type areas)
It may be a step in the right direction but time will tell.

As I've said previously most of my information relates to work on 1080 in WA only and it is a provable fact that native species in WA have much higher tolerance to 1080 than those in the other states. This definitely tips the balance toward using 1080 in WA for feral Dog, fox and feral cat control.


Thanks again for the update.

Disco.

Erad, thats great news. Any bait that kills more humanely than 1080 (and I don't care what anyone says, it's horrible stuff, and yes, I lived and worked in Cattle/ sheep Country) and most importantly has an antidote, gets my backing.
Shame that you only currently have 40 minutes, as that is useless in ny bush environment.. but it is promising that they are developing tablets, at least they can be carried at anytime!
Unfortunately though, if it becomes readily available, it will take a long, long time to get people to change.. There'll always be the first question "how expensive is it" which shows where the users priorities lie straight away.. and "oh but i've been using 1080 for 100 years .. "
... here's hoping eh!!

Cheers
Al

I'm with you Disco.

Seems to me these days we dont so much live in the information age or the technological age, but we primarily live in The Age Of The BUSYBODY!!

Every busybody who is offended by the legitimate and longstanding activities of many, now seems to have the right to get it banned, which has minimal impact on the busybody other than a slightly warming inner glow in their otherwise miserable selves and the victim (recently rebadged as the culprit) has their livelihood destroyed.

They say there's two sides to everything, but the popular busybody city-based press only ever prints one.

I'm over it. If you want to have a great look around Australia don't take your bloody dog. Is that too much to ask?

Ditto


:)

Paul B (WA) you use the term busybody but what gives you the right to tell people to leave their dog home. I don't think the theme of this information sharing post was in any way blaming anyone else should a dog get poisoned by 1080 though lack of care and attention of the dog by its owner. I own a dog, I take it on trips to the outback, I choose not to visit areas where dogs are prohibited, I believe the pleasure my dog gives me outweighs the pleasure I missed out on by not being able to visit certain sights, in fact the dog gives me far more pleasure than many humans do and should the dog take a bait then that is my own fault, no one else's and I take responsibility for that.
Thank you for your unsolicited opinion and just as you have the right to your opinion I have just as much right to disagree with it. That is what makes the world such an interesting place

My point isn't whether you take your dog with you but whether because you want to take your dog you think baiting should be banned.

I take my dog too, but I don't take it if I think there'll be baits and I certainly don't demand that baiting be banned just because I can't go somewhere without my dog.

I'm completely over people with different outlooks on life demanding massive changes in OTHER PEOPLES' lives. They are nothing short of busybodies and it's always us country people who come off second best. We're the people left to pick up the pieces whilst busybodies like you go back to your cushy city lives.

Mate I did not at any time in my posts suggest 1080 be banned. The original question was seeking information about the product and persons with far more knowledge than I answered the technical details (including one person who stated they had 20 years experience in its use) Someone then suggested that when baits are laid they are tied to stakes and removed next morning which anyone living in WA knows is incorrect so I posted re the aerial bait laying that is done here so those who are misinformed thinking the baits are tied to stakes and removed daily are not lulled in to a false sense of security. My point was that if you go in to or are around a known 1080 affected area then keep your dog on a lead and if you don't and the dog takes a bait then it is your own fault. I agree with you 100% about people taking responsibility for their own actions and not blaming everyone else when something goes wrong which probably was caused by their own stupidity in the first place. You can read about such instances in the newspaper on a daily basis. I don't know why you categorise me as: "busybodies like you" or what you think gives you the right to do so. Maybe you think everyone who posts on here to help others out who ask questions are 'busybodies' or is it just those whose opinion may differ from yours. In terms of your comment: "go back to your cushy city lives" FYI I do not live in the city and as a matter of fact I breed sheep, kill foxes and am an ex Kalgoorlie resident. Since you are big on opinions of those that you don't even know, mine is that you need to 'lighten up a bit', don't misinterpret what people write and respect others right to have a say. The Kalgoorlie people I know are much thicker skinned and not nearly as precious as you seem to be.

Then I wasn't referring to you, Blown4by, I was referring to the busybodies earlier in the post (they know who they are) who were demanding that 1080 be banned, with massive consequences which they are not left with.

I dunno why you're so sensitive when clearly the comments weren't directed at you.

And yes, Kalgoorlie people, along with country people everywhere are fed up to the back teeth with city busybodies interfering in things they know nothing about. Whether it be by imposing an increasing plethora of "national parks" which are then not managed and people are essentially precluded from at the whim of bureaucrats, where fires are not put out expeditiously as they were when private owners, local shires or local bushfire bridgades were involved. Round here, if you want to see a patch of country stuffed up, give it to DEC.

I could go on & on with example after example, but I think I've made my point. If you are as you say, I'm amazed you would think I'd be referring to you - I would have thought we were in screaming agreement.

Hi Paul, I think you are being a bit one eyed on this.
And I'd hardly call Kal "country", by any means...
Maybe i'm just used to much smaller, wide open places than that?? who knows...
If there i an option for a poison with an antidote, then bring it on..
And yes, 1080 is horrible bloody stuff, no question!!

"I'd hardly call Kal "country", by any means"? Most people would regard it as seriously outback, Croozerute! How far inland or outback do you have to be to be country? On you apparent definition, there is no "country" in Victoria and it only starts well west of Wagga, Forbes, Dubbo & Narrabri in NSW!

When/if 1080 can be replaced by something that works as well and is more humane, then do it. But the earliest that is is 2013 - so what do we do for the intervening 12 months? Completely decimate the small native fauna that has managed somehow to survive, not to mention the pastoral wool & sheep-meat industry.

See what I mean by people interfering and leaving massive consequences for others to pick up. By any measure, they are straight out busybodies.

well yeah, for your nsw comments, i'd say you're right ... anything east of those places is sydney isn't it? .. lol
Kal is a mining town, It's not a country/ outback town, by any stretch of the imagination. plus, it's a huge town .. lol
anyway .. you're getting all defensive over this 1080 business.. so what if it's 2013??? then that's good isn't it? and why bring up the 12 months in between? who's saying there should be a sudden blanket ban on 1080 while we wait for the replacement?
I think you've lost it a little mate. have a coldie, and come back and read the thread a little slower..

Cheers
Al