The Danger of snatch straps ,has been highlighted again recentley..BUT!

Submitted: Friday, Jun 01, 2012 at 21:17
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Should more attention be paid to recovery points???....Just looking at the 100s to-night and not very impressed at all with the hook on it, and on the passenger side is the plate with a hole in it tie down point i think ..hope !! have not used it yet , but sure as hell will try to go easy with it when the time comes... the shear aspect of those two bolts is a worry i think. the load needs to be between the two chassis rails same as a rear tow bar, ...Mr Toyo could do a lot better than this.!


Cheers Axle..
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Reply By: Member - John (Vic) - Friday, Jun 01, 2012 at 21:31

Friday, Jun 01, 2012 at 21:31
There is no recovery points fitted on any Toyota model from stock.

If its original then it isn't a recovery point and you need to have them fitted.



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Follow Up By: Axle - Friday, Jun 01, 2012 at 22:29

Friday, Jun 01, 2012 at 22:29
G/Day John,.. interesting!...so who guarantees what?..LOL.


Axle.
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Friday, Jun 01, 2012 at 22:54

Friday, Jun 01, 2012 at 22:54
Those that supply and fit rated recovery points will have to support their product.

I used the Outback Ideas front recovery points on my Troopy, was easy to fit.
If you Google their name you will find heaps of info, there has also been a few posts on here also over the years.

I think ARB also sell them??


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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Friday, Jun 01, 2012 at 23:01

Friday, Jun 01, 2012 at 23:01
Here is a link to a few pictures of their recovery points, not just 10 Series ones.
Give you an idea about what they do, other than that Google away!!

Link to Google Search Images for Outback Recovery Points

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Reply By: Crackles - Friday, Jun 01, 2012 at 21:52

Friday, Jun 01, 2012 at 21:52
As far as stock tow points go the standard ones on the 100 series are better than most. No light 4x4 has a central tow point on the front & can't ever say I've seen an after market one either so I think your expectations of Mr Toyo are a bit unrealistic & unnecessary. To tow from the centre simply buy an equalizing strap which will also halve the load on each side as well.
While certainly not rated, I've seen the stock tow points take some massive recovery loads on many vehicles over years. For light to medium recoveries in a straight line I don't have any concerns with them.
To answer your initial question, Yes upgrading recovery points should be a priority if intending to go offroad as at full stretch a snatch strap can apply 8 tonne to those 2 bolts.
Cheers Craig.............
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Follow Up By: Axle - Friday, Jun 01, 2012 at 22:23

Friday, Jun 01, 2012 at 22:23
Craig, i'm only saying a centre tow point would in my opinion be a better system, After all a lot of heavy trucks use that system.....


cheers Axle.
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Follow Up By: Crackles - Friday, Jun 01, 2012 at 22:37

Friday, Jun 01, 2012 at 22:37
"a lot of heavy trucks use that system"
You're correct of course Axle & from personal experience definately required on trucks but I'm only suggesting if a central tow point was actually required on a light 4x4 the after market sector would have made them years ago. In all but the most extreme recoveries, hooking to one side has no ill effect.
Cheers Craig...............
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Follow Up By: zigdog - Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 05:39

Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 05:39
Can't speak for newer Toyos or Nissan but Landrover Discovery 3&4 come with factory fitted front and rear centre recovery points as stock.
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Reply By: Member - Scoey4 (SA) - Friday, Jun 01, 2012 at 22:38

Friday, Jun 01, 2012 at 22:38
Greetings Axle

I have a 100 series and have been concerned about the hook for recoveries - so prior to doing the Simpson last month, I replaced it with a set of 200 series recovery points - flat yellow steel plates with holes to put the shackles through.

Had to have some adjustments made to the bullbar and have some inserts welded in, but now much more confident that they will be safer - my fear was that if I used the hook and it let go, it wasn't my rig getting damaged but the one recovering me.

As it turned out, I didn't need to use them in the Simpson but good insurance I reckon - I'm sure they will get used in the future.

CHEERS

Scoey
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Follow Up By: Axle - Friday, Jun 01, 2012 at 22:44

Friday, Jun 01, 2012 at 22:44
Sounds to be a better set up Scoey,...Might check them out.


Cheers Axle.
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Reply By: Member - Arsenal Phill - Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 07:06

Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 07:06
This is a very interesting, and relevant thread for myself. I know ignorance is no defence, but I only discovered this issue by accident.

I bought a top of the range 200 series from new. Branded ` The King of 4WD's '. I saw what appeared to be heavy duty looking shackles under the front frame and assumed they were recovery points. They looked strong, so why whouldn't I??? And yes I know assumption is the mother of all **** ups!!! LOL To me, surely a 4WD, adverstised as such, should come with recovery points as standard? It would be like selling a sink without a plug in my mind. Although I could be wrong.

Anyway, we were out doing some dune running and a mate bought along another mate who had these lovely orange things mounted under his frame. One thing led to another and in discussion found out that mine were tow points. Checked in the manual and it is there in black and white, but not highlighted or given any extra atttention or warning. I think this is VERY POOR. My mate Andy also had a new Prado and he had assumed the same as me, that the tow points were recovery points.

I don't accept that the won't fit them because of liablility. Apparently miss use can lead to accidents and therefore law suits. All they need to do is highlight it in the maunal and specify correct use and proceedure. For those that don't want to go off-road they can be removed from factory order.

Lets face it, there are many things we buy and use that are dangerous and correct usage is advised etc. It doesn't lead to law suits with these items. This should be no different. I personally feel that the Toyota are MORE liable for their product as it stands now, due to the fact that they look like recovery points to the untrained eye and are likely to be used so. They issue warnings etc with the cargo barrier, again its a small detail they are missing regarding recovery points.

I think Toyota have left a lot to be desired here. An off road vehicle with no recovery points???? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.............
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Follow Up By: braggy - Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 08:06

Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 08:06
Maybe Toyota think their cars don't get bogged
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Follow Up By: Member - Ups and Downs - Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 08:23

Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 08:23
Phil

I think people that are new to off-roading perhaps read a lot of the junk that is written by people who don't know better and think that a snatch strap is something used every day.

I, and many people I know, who have 4WD's and use them extensively haven't had the need to use a snatch strap. There are other options, shovelling comes to mind, that may be physically harder but safer and impose less stress on the vehicle.

I have one and one day may use it however I am very aware of the dangers so for now like to leave it in its pretty plastic bag.

Not saying the Toyota handbook shouldn't be more explicit, but what the hooks are for is there as you found.

regards

Paul
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Follow Up By: splits - Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 13:16

Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 13:16
"I personally feel that the Toyota are MORE liable for their product as it stands now, due to the fact that they look like recovery points to the untrained eye and are likely to be used so."

Phill

I think it should be the other way around. Toyota supplies the car with a book that clearly states the hooks are for towing. Towing or winching are both forms of recovery and a winch does not apply any more force to the hooks than towing.

Snatch straps should be clearly marked not to be used with factory fitted towing hooks.
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Follow Up By: spak - Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 14:44

Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 14:44
splits,
when you use a winch you are usually bogged or stuck on the side of a hill and this will always place more strain on the towing points of a vehicle than when it is being towed along as the vehicle is free wheeling.
This is why a proper rated recovery point should always be fitted to vehicles that go offroad.
If anyone wishes to take a chance on their original tie down/ towing points then good luck to them, I sincerely hope no-one with them gets injured if the towing point breaks, I for one spent the extra $110 to get proper rated recovery points on our vehicle, I hope I never have to use them and to this day I still haven't.
To say that "Snatch straps should be clearly marked not to be used with factory fitted towing hooks" I think is bit misguided as Toyota also have a responsibility to make the vehicle safe for it's intended use and if that is a 4wd then they should make it so. They should also make it quite clear in their manual that the towing points are not to be used in any recovery.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Patrol22 - Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 18:32

Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 18:32
....and don't forget folk that when fitting the aftermarket recovery points you must ensure that you are bolting them on with high tensile bolts.
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Follow Up By: splits - Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 22:00

Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 22:00
spak posted:
when you use a winch you are usually bogged or stuck on the side of a hill and this will always place more strain on the towing points of a vehicle than when it is being towed along as the vehicle is free wheeling
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I thought about that an hour later but I was miles from home then.

The hooks should still be suitable for winching though. The handbook in my Toyota does not say don't use the hook if your car is stuck. It does say though if you do use the hook to move a car stuck in mud or sand then don't forcibly continue towing if the car can hardly move. They then go on and suggest calling a Toyota dealer or a tow truck. You are not going to call a tow truck way out in the bush, or a dealer for that matter, but common sense should tell you that you have to try something different like digging or removing rocks etc. Once you have removed the obstruction, winching should not be a problem.

Toyota knows towies are going to use the hook to drag a damaged car, sometimes without wheels, up onto a tilt tray truck. They also know a farmer with a bogged car is going to come back with a chain and big tractor and drag the thing straight out so the hooks will have been designed to cater for that. They usually don't have a rating on them but similar size aftermarket hooks are rated at 4500 kgs and are labelled for towing only. That is a hell of a lot in reserve just for towing a free wheeling car.

Snatching is an entirely different thing with far too many variables for car manufacturers get involved. If Government regulations forced them too, I would say they would go right back to the chassis design studios and start from scratch. They would have to take into account situations like a 12000 kg strap being used with a maniac in a F250 on the other end of it.
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Follow Up By: spak - Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 23:07

Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 23:07
splits,

Mate I wouldn't use the original towing points for winching, I wouldn't even use the original nissan ones even though they are about an inch thick round bar. The issue does not necessarily lie in the size of the towing point but in the quality of the steel used in the towing point. Atleast with the aftermarket ones here in Oz you are getting better quality steel in the recovery points. The All Terrain ones for our patrol are rated at 8T.

The problem is that people will still continue to try to move the stuck vehicle even though it is stuck up to the chassis rails in mud. To get this vehicle out takes an awful lot of effort and puts a lot of strain on the towing points, and yes they may not break this time but what about next time, could you really trust a tie down/towing point. People have died from trusting these types of points and placing too much strain on them is only asking for trouble. Yes the original points may be good for dragging a log out of the way on a farm and even dragging it up a ramp onto a tow truck (which is usually one solid flat steel surface) even with a wheel missing but for recovery situations an extra $100 has really got to be worth the peace of mind in knowing that these designed to do the job.

If manufacturers have to make vehicles to withstand the maniac in the F250 with a 12T snatch strap then we would all be driving around sherman tanks LOL.
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Follow Up By: splits - Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 12:56

Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 12:56
spak posted:

"could you really trust a tie down/towing point."

Yes because it says so in the hand book. I am not talking about the tie down point on the other side of the car though. I replaced that on my car with another genuine Toyota hook and bolts. When Toyota wrote in the book that you should not continue pulling a car out of sand or mud when it can hardly move, they are endorsing the use of that hook for more than just flat towing. That hook is their recovery point but if you contact them on their customer information number and ask about snatch straps, they will tell you they don't support their use and their cars are not rated for them. That is why I will not use a strap on my car. Even if I sent the car back to the factory and it came out with a new rated recovery point personally authorised by Toyota's chief of chassis engineering, I would still not use one because I can not trust the recovery points on the other car. Plenty of them have come flying back into stranded vehicles.

Just out of curiosity, what did the instructions supplied with your All Terrain recovery point tell you to attach it to? Surely not the same place you removed the Nissan point from.
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Reply By: AlbyNSW - Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 14:34

Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 14:34
From Toyotas point of view, the vehicle is built to a specification that is fit for purpose for more than 90% of purchases, rural town cars and soccer mums.
In my view upgrading the recovery points is no different to upgrading the tyres, bullbar, driving lights etc to a level that suits your specific ( and minority user groups ) needs.
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Follow Up By: Member - Arsenal Phill - Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 16:53

Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 16:53
Alby that is all well and good for your 90% market, but that isn't want the Landcruiser is marketed specifically for. It is marketed as the `King of Off-Road'. Therefore even if the minority of purchasers use it for this, they should be more explicit and clear with specs. Not just hide it within, what is a very thick handbook.
For something that they would be aware of, as a serious safety issue, they should make new buyers more aware. Not all their customers weil be seasoned 4WD people. I just think its a small think that a big corporation has over looked.
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 17:28

Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 17:28
Fair point Phil
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Follow Up By: Member - Arsenal Phill - Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 18:14

Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 18:14
Cheers Alby. I wasn't trying to rubbish or negate your point of view. Both ways of looking at it are correct. I just think its a serious issue for the unaware.

I am by no means fully experienced off roader, but have done a fair bit. So my argument is, that if I, and also my mate, make the same mistake, as average experienced individuals........ how many novices will too??

I bought the thing thinking it was the finished article, only to find out over time that this was missing, that was missing etc. It was just the apperance of the tow hitches that makes it all misleading in my case. In fact I am sure that some members of our club also took them for recovery points as they call for them to be manditory. Therefore to say the 200 was ok, means they have also assumed. I probably couldn't get them to admit it LOL, but it's just a feeling..... :)
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 10:16

Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 10:16
I didn't take it that way Phil. I havn't seen the landcruiser handbook but if it is not clearly spelt out that they are not rated recovery points then it probably should. Just the same I have no issue in rated recovery points not being provided as standard issue
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Reply By: Member - Rob D (NSW) - Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 14:54

Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 14:54
Be careful of the bolts you use to attach your recovery hooks.

I have heard of people coming to grief using low tensile bolts bought from the local hardware store.

You need to use high tensile bolts and should source them from a specialist.
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 16:58

Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 16:58
They are normally supplied by the manufacturer of the recovery points.
At least Outback Ideas supplied them.

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Reply By: Member - eighty matey - Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 20:30

Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 20:30
I've always replaced the tie down hooks on my 4wds. I was told a long time ago they were basically used for tying the vehicle down on the trip to Australia and pulling onto a tilt tray.

They can do a good job of helping something simple but I saw a mates standard 80 series hook go through another mates back window. Snatching out of mud. Another mates Jackaroo lost both the front and back ties down hooks in one mud hole attempted recovery.

If you have to use them assume there will be a really good chance of something snapping off.

My rated recovery points are a lot stronger but I still check everything before, during and after recovery if it's full on.

Steve
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Reply By: SDG - Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 20:35

Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 20:35
Reminds me of the laugh I had not long ago when I bought a mountain bike. There is a sticker on the frame that says not for off road use.
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Reply By: Ron N - Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 22:50

Saturday, Jun 02, 2012 at 22:50
If using strengthened recovery points on a really badly bogged vehicle, you really need to ensure that you pull on both points simultaneously.
Pulling on just one point on the end of one chassis rail can distort the chassis, particularly if a tractor or a particularly heavy 4WD is being used as the recovery vehicle.
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Follow Up By: Axle - Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 11:57

Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 11:57
Thats been my point from the start !,,Pull from the centre, ...if there was something decent there to hook up to.


Cheers Axle.
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 14:03

Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 14:03
Axle that is why you are better off using a bridle and pulling off two points. Much less stress on the vehicle load points and the load is distributed evenly
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Follow Up By: Axle - Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 15:04

Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 15:04
Fair Enough Alby.



Cheers Axle.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 17:07

Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 17:07
Axle - You obviously didn't see the video of the D10 Cat dozer pulling the near-new Brambles Mack apart (taken in the early '90's), in the Northern Goldfields of W.A. (the video doesn't seem to be around anymore, and it did make "Australia's Funniest Home Videos").

To recap, the Brambles float driver arrived at a minesite with a near new Mack, pulling a platform low-loader, to move a big mining excavator (I seem to recall the ekky was around 150 tonnes).
They dug a bit of a depression (about 300mm deep) and backed the platform float into it, so the ekky could climb on easier.
When the Mack went to drive out, she couldn't get enough traction to pull the float out of the slight hole it was in.

So all the smart boys called up the bloke on the D10 to come and assist the Mack out of the low spot with a tow.
They duly backed the D10 up to the Mack, attached the hefty tow chain to the "proper", factory-installed tow hitch, that was mounted in the centre of the bullbar (and which was firmly attached to the front chassis cross-member).

At the "go" signal, the smart dozer operator roared off, full throttle - and the entire front pull hitch, front chassis cross-member, radiator, grille, and all associated components - all parted company with the Mack!

What happened was that the severe overload on the hitch simply guillotined all the rivets holding the front chassis cross-member, and its angled braces, in place - and the entire front section of the Mack, just took off by itself!

'Twas rather embarrassing for Brambles, and the dozer operator, and the entire crew - when the video made the rounds for everyone to have a good guffaw at!

The simple fact was the combined gross combination weight of the Mack & float (probably around 180-200 tonnes), plus the small depression, added up to a drawbar pull needed that the dozer could deliver - but which the hitch was never designed to withstand!

So it goes with many deeply bogged 4WD's. Few people understand that the limits of recovery points are rated to withstand the maximum drawbar pull of the average 4WD.

If you jerk the snatch strap/wire rope/tow chain, you're doubling the load on the recovery points and the strap/rope/chain.
Add in a BIG 4WD, or something larger (tractor), and you can easily exceed the rated load, of even the best quality aftermarket recovery attachment point.

Cheers - Ron.
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Reply By: gbc - Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 07:07

Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 07:07
So a newb who admits they don't have experience takes a 'look' under the front of his 4by and assumes the recovery hook (big cast hook for the other half of you lot who keep 'assuming' it's a tie down.....) isn't up to the job.
Do you think the 'king of off road' engineers would put a RECOVERY hook on the front of a 4wd if they assumed it would fail?

How many of you who put "rated" (another joke) recovery points on their 3mm box chassis' used crush tubes or fish plates?
It isn't the recovery hook, or the two bolts that fail on a 100 series, its the chassis being ripped apart by idiots who think that bodily dragging a vehicle out of some hopeless bog by a single point of attachment is somehow part of the design brief of the vehicle's manufacturer.

There's no wonder Mr Toyota doesnt put them on the 200 series. They can do a reasonable job manufacturing a car, but they can't put reasonable people in charge of them.

I can see the forum heading - "200 series are crap - why did toyota 8t wll points on the front of my car if they didn't want me to winch it off the grand canyon? Now it's scratched and its someone else's fault."








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Follow Up By: spak - Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 09:51

Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 09:51
gbc,
mate if you think that all these "cast tie down/towing points are there for recovery when 4wding then by all means use them but please do not come back here when they fail with a sob story. We are trying to provide advice based on experience and knowledge gained from others on this and many other forums, books, courses and anyway whichway the info comes in. If you chose to not take this advice then that is your call, either way I don't care what you do. But your family will care if all you needed to do was spend a few dollars to prevent the preventable.

And just because something looks big and strong don't assume that it is so, it is the quality of the materials used and the manufacturing process that needs to be accounted for as well.

I for one will continue to soak up all the advice I can get from anyone I can get it from and be greatful for it.

No-one is "bagging" the 200series, yes it may be a great vehicle but by Toyota claiming it as "the king of the road" then maybe they need to make it so or maybe just keep it on the road!!

And for the record I don't drive a 200 series as it is way out of my price range. Would I have one, maybe later in life if I choose to tow a decent sized van then I may buy one but for now I am happy with what I have.

cheers




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Follow Up By: gbc - Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 11:46

Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 11:46
Please please please demonstrate some of your " knowledge gained from others on this and many other forums, books, courses and anyway whichway the info comes in" and show me just one case where the cast recovery hook factory mounted to the front of the 100/105 series landcruiser has failed. Just one. I hope to be proven a dill.

The old welded loop tiedowns that everyone laughs at on the 80 and 100 have been tested to destruction as part of a 4wd magazine test. They are only a single bolt connection. The bolt shears at approx 8t. The loop does not fail prior to the bolt. Your garden variety recovery hook is rated at 10 000 lb or about 4.5t. Make your own deductions. That's just information, not a recommendation. It is still a tiedown and there are better things available, but just because someone calls it what you want to hear doesn't make it better. Your family bud.

I know when I had a 105 in 1998/99/00, the ARB listed 'recovery hook' for that model was the same bloody cast pig tail as was already on the car, just painted red. I bought another one for the other side and flogged them for years without issue.

You are spreading scuttlebut and scaremongering, not knowlege.

Please also confirm we are talking about 2 separate things here, I'm not sure you have that level of knowledge. They came with a hook on one side and a tie down on the other. Now why do you reckon that is?

Yes, people are bagging the 200. And yes, it is not properly equipped for recovery. I can see it from the manufacturer's point of view though. Why put them there and expose ourselves to litigation? You want to hang our car out of a tree, go right ahead, but we're not going to help you. There are plenty of aftermarket points for them.

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Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 17:32

Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 17:32
Hmmm - I think gbc's on the money. The recovery hook strength isn't as much the problem - but the method of attachment usually is .....

No doubt, a superior strength and superior design aftermarket recovery point is better than the standard Toyota hook - but more so, in that the attachment method usually involves additional heavy plate that assists in recovery attachment point retention - and which also assists in supporting and strengthening the chassis, at the attachment points.

Nonetheless, two standard Landcruiser recovery hooks, used with a bridle, should be quite capable of withstanding the pull of an average 4WD, and something in the order of an 8000lb winch.

It's only when you get a vehicle bogged to the point where the axles are buried, and the mud is creating severe suction - and a truck, tractor, or God forbid, a crawler, is used as the tow vehicle - that the recovery attachment points are going to come under loadings, that even the chassis is going to be struggling to withstand.

http://www.landcruiserclub.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=12343
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Follow Up By: gbc - Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 20:20

Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 20:20
Good link with some honest owners. Thanks for that.
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Reply By: Kimba10 - Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 12:11

Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 12:11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS2fe74tQuo&feature=related Must be a pretty strong strap lol
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Follow Up By: Axle - Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 13:42

Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 13:42
LolKimba,....One would be cautious of a Flying strap,..shackel,...tow bar...tree branch, and whatever with those blokes,...lol.



Cheers Axle.
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Reply By: Nutta - Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 18:37

Sunday, Jun 03, 2012 at 18:37
After a quick read of this it should be stamped on the sunvisor with the low/high range thing, its pretty poor on the manufacturers part!
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