Rodeo engine failure

Submitted: Saturday, Jul 07, 2012 at 15:46
ThreadID: 96727 Views:3552 Replies:9 FollowUps:12
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Hi all, I purchased a 2008 crew cab auto 4JJJ1 about 8 months ago - 57,000kms, never towed. It is now a work vehicle, towing between 0.8 and 2 tonnes 50% of the time, fully and properly serviced. We fitted a Tunit chip about 15,000kms ago, set at 8 (out of 10). with 90,000kms on the clock, the engine has catastrophically failed.....no warning, just the oil light and "noise" shortly after. Still ran, but preliminaries reveal a big end bearing failure. Anyone with similar stories.....and why?
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Reply By: racinrob - Saturday, Jul 07, 2012 at 16:14

Saturday, Jul 07, 2012 at 16:14
Roger,
Without knowing more but I would guess that you have overstressed a small engine which had already been tweeked to produce its maximum output . JMHO

rr
AnswerID: 490330

Reply By: Ross M - Saturday, Jul 07, 2012 at 18:45

Saturday, Jul 07, 2012 at 18:45
Yours is the first failure of these I have heard of doing this. There may have been others though.

"FULLY AND PROPERLY SERVICED" by whom???
Not a dealer I hope, because they rarely, fully or properly service those vehicles, and that applies to Oldhen and Isuzu variants.

A tunit chip will stress the engine bearings far more than normal because all the power increase has to be transferred from piston to crankshaft through the big end bearings.
One VITAL issue, is the quality of the engine oil used. If it was just normal oil or the oil used by a dealer service centre, then it possibly hasn't been good enough. They don't use the best of oils, not enough profit in it for them.

Any engine, running in a chipped turbo charged situation, should have the best of oils providing the lubrication requirements. Oils like some of the trendy, popular in some circles type oils generally don't give the ultimate protection needed.

The Chipit module runs the injectors at far higher pressures than is normal and if that has ruined one or more of the injectors, because that's what it does, then the injection may have been uncontrolled and far higher combustion pressures than normal have possibly occurred. This will ruin engine bearings fairly quickly.

There is some possibilities as to the cause.

Ross M
AnswerID: 490337

Reply By: Member - Redbakk (WA) - Saturday, Jul 07, 2012 at 19:05

Saturday, Jul 07, 2012 at 19:05
Hello Roger, spent some time with google searches and there is quite a lot out there which might be useful to you but they generally agree with Ross M has said.

AnswerID: 490343

Reply By: olcoolone - Saturday, Jul 07, 2012 at 20:50

Saturday, Jul 07, 2012 at 20:50
I would blame the chip and the servicing at a dealer for the engine failure.....LOL

Roger chips don't destroy engines and nether does dealer servicing, it could be a number of things that caused it to fail.

Many point the finger at the obvious with no data to back their claims.

By any chance you don't run bigger tyres do you.... that may of caused it....LOL...just joking.

Any thing made by man can and will fail and most are just bad luck.

The number of people including myself who have chipped vehicles and serviced by a dealer far exceed those who don't and ours haven't failed.

The Rodeo's are usually very reliable and don't have any known issues.

AnswerID: 490349

Follow Up By: Member - Redbakk (WA) - Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 01:03

Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 01:03
olcoolone, read this first

http://www.lcool.org/technical/elec_diesel_tuning/tuning.html

particularly on engine durability and how some chips can contribute to engine failure.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 10:10

Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 10:10
There is a lot of scaremongering regarding diesel chips, most are written be people who have no idea what they are on about..... the article on the LCOOL forum was written about 6 years or more ago when all this deisel chip stuff was still classed as witch craft.

This first started appearing when the high output small capacity modern diesel's first came out ...... fancy a 3lt 4 cylinder putting out more power then a 4.2Lt 6 cylinder..... can't be done.

If a diesel engine can not handle a power increase of 15 to 20% then the engineers are building grenades.

Look at the 1HZ or Nissans 6 cylinder with the common aftermarket turbo kit...... 50 to 80+% power increase with no reliability issues.

If it was true that reliability was affected then every Toyota or Nissan with a aftermarket turbo kit would be going BANG!..... considering most are used for extreme activities like towing or off road.

What about the factory old school diesels with the fuel supply wound up or the factory turbos with wound up boost??????

If after market chips were a problem why is it so many diesel specialists are selling them and offering a engine warranty with them...... Toyota Europe offers a chip for the Hilux that gives a 30% power gain.... and it's plug and play, the factory warranty still stays.

Some of the other manufactures in Europe also offer power upgrades through there tuning houses.

Have a look on the appropriate forums and see how many run aftermarket chips with no problems.

Sure they will affect durability but so does towing, bigger exhausts, bigger wheels, stop start driving, how it is driven and how it is serviced..... how much it is affected by is anyone's guess..... I would say maybe less then 1%.

It's simple show me the data to back the claim that the power increase or the chip caused the failure and I will believe....... and I will even say I'm wrong.

And I don't want any of this"my mate's neighbour down the road said his brothers friend knew this girls father who had a bloke at his work say his friend's cousin ...... BLAH BLAH BLAH."

Again I ask if they were as bad as some say why is it that many leading diesel specialists sell and support them.

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Follow Up By: Member - Redbakk (WA) - Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 11:33

Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 11:33
I agree with you on most of the above when the integrity of the remapping is done by well qualified engineering people who have a thorough knowledge of their craft.

To say " chips don't destroy engines and nether does dealer servicing," (quote) is such an open ended statement I would say to you that you cannot provide absolute proof that they don't.

The article may be 6 years old BUT theory behind it is still sound and still applies today and there is plenty of other articles written out there that support this one.

I like this article because it explains the theory behind chipping or remapping and how it is achieved for if you don't have some knowledge of the theory behind it, you cannot make an informed choice when you go out to make a purchase.

The basic construction of the internal combustion engine is still the same today wether petrol or diesel, and the forces and the consequences are still at work. And you are right, a manufacturer spends years and millions to develop the right balance, when producing a vehicle, between engine, transmission, etc, then we mortals, as soon as we get it, start changing this or adding that based on the sales pitch of others or what we perceive to be lacking in it's design and that balance is changed then when some breaks then then we are left with the result.

"why is it that many leading diesel specialists sell and support them." you so rightly ask...........Pick up any 4WD magazine and start turning the pages and it will be full of advertisements informing you what your vehicle requires, what accessories are available to make that stock standard, off the showroom floor purchase, why it needs this or that to make better, faster, more powerful, sit higher, etc, etc, etc, because the sellers of all these add ons, are competing with one another to make money out of you because they have a product to sell.

And there is nothing wrong with most of it but check first before you buy and make sure that you fully understand that what you are doing won't compromise your vehicle.

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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 15:38

Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 15:38
I'm not even going to argue with you when you ask me to prove chips and dealer servicing doesn't destroy engines..... what sort of stupid uneducated question is that......

You can think what you want ..... you don't like chips and obviously dealer servicing so lets leave it at that!

End of discussion.
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Follow Up By: Member - Redbakk (WA) - Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 16:18

Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 16:18
olcoolone, like everything, there needs to be balance to all arguments, anyone can have an opinion and because it is an open forum you have to accept that.

I can accept your opinion and the question is can you accept mine?
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 16:28

Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 16:28
Now who can't accept who's opinion......

Your the one who replied to my post and challenged me...... I would say you can't accept my opinion.

If you accepted my opinion you would of not responded by asking me to prove it.

So what are you trying to prove and what's your argument?
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Follow Up By: Member - Redbakk (WA) - Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 16:41

Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 16:41
Balance....if you make a statement then others have the right of reply.
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Follow Up By: Aandy(WA) - Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 22:39

Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 22:39
Can't understand why anyone would chip a Prado. Mine goes so well in standard tune that I think it would be a waste of time and money!
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Monday, Jul 09, 2012 at 11:41

Monday, Jul 09, 2012 at 11:41
Aandy if you don't want one don't get one..... simple.

Until you have driven one with a chip how can you make a comment that it would be a waste of time and money?
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FollowupID: 765807

Reply By: Thinkin - Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 07:44

Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 07:44
Roger, Has your rodeo got a sump guard?
Check to see if the sump may have been accidently tapped on the bottom and caused an oil starvation problem either recently or previously.
regards Alpero



AnswerID: 490363

Reply By: olcoolone - Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 10:21

Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 10:21
Roger.... the first thing I would do is get the engine oil and coolant analysed to give an insight into what had happened.

The people analysing the oil will give you an idea of the cause.

If it was a fuel over supply problem the oil would be diluted with diesel.... this may indicate a leaking injector.

Oil and coolant analysing are often spot on.

Nearly all heavy plant places have oil and coolant analysing done now as part of a standard service practice.

You can buy the single use kits from Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit and most heavy vehicle places..... cost is around the $300 mark I think for single use.
AnswerID: 490381

Follow Up By: Thinkin - Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 13:03

Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 13:03
Oil analysis are best done before you have any problems, that way you have a record of readings to compare, and hopefully when a serious change of readings occur you can remedy any faults before major damage occurs.
Yes, any readings now will show faults.
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FollowupID: 765702

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Monday, Jul 09, 2012 at 11:39

Monday, Jul 09, 2012 at 11:39
Of course they are best done before but how can you do it before when the engine has already destroyed it's self?

Taking a reading now will give a bit of an insight of what has happened like diluted oil!

Oil samples can tell so much eve when the engine had died and give you a herad start into understanding what had failed.

They do the same wit metal surfaces under a microscope.

As for showing faults yes it will, but the degree of material breakdown and carbon contents alters.

When we have had anything destroy it's self whilst under warranty, the first thing they ask for are oil samples.

We have had 10 page reports come back to why something had failed with samples and photo's taken from a microscope.

We have one at the moment with a failed component that we are challenging at the moment.
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FollowupID: 765806

Reply By: mikehzz - Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 21:12

Sunday, Jul 08, 2012 at 21:12
More power/torque = more stress on the components. Or has physics taken a holiday? It's not necessarily why yours went bang but it's the first thought I had. Sorry to hear it though.
AnswerID: 490433

Follow Up By: Roughasguts - Sunday, Jul 15, 2012 at 12:26

Sunday, Jul 15, 2012 at 12:26
I would be putting my money on this aswell.

With more power you might tend to drive in a higher gear! with more throttle used.

This in effect will Mean running at a High Brake mean effective pressure (BMEP) In otherwords lugging the motor! high amounts of power being thrown down on the Crank without increasing the Rev's of the motor will destroy it in no time.

Of course un like Aircraft most vehicles don't have manifold pressure gauges and an EGT to monitor the engine.

In an Aircraft High BMEP would be evident in Manifold pressure measured in Inchess being say 30 inchess! higher than RPM say 2100 RPM.
and of course EGT will be climbing along with Oil Temp increasing but oil pressure decreasing. All dead give aways really but hard to pick with limited gauges.

And all you do in an Aircraft to reduce BMEP is reduce the pitch on the prop to increase RPM just like changing to a lower gear in your vehicle.

Cheers.
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FollowupID: 766405

Reply By: Member - Brian R (WA) - Monday, Jul 09, 2012 at 00:47

Monday, Jul 09, 2012 at 00:47
Hi Rodger

I have read most of the replies so far.
Thought I would add my littlle bit of basics.
Around 6 or 7 years ago I owned a 1990 Jackaroo TD, 100 and odd Thou on the clock.
It was serviced by a guy, who has since retired.....but never replaced.
The Jackaroo went like a dream, till that , one day, the big end , whooped itself. From the questions I asked and the replies I got.....I reckon the engine , which was also in the Rodeo was A TIME BOMB

Brian R
AnswerID: 490443

Reply By: andoland - Tuesday, Jul 10, 2012 at 18:57

Tuesday, Jul 10, 2012 at 18:57
Roger,

We have a 2007 turbo diesel Rodeo at work which we purchased new. A few years back it went in to Holden for a 40,000km service. They rang back during the day to say they need the vehicle for another week because they need to replace the engine under warranty, which they then did.

It was hard to get much detail out of them but apparently some of these engines had a problem with the injector seals which were allowing air into the engine and causing coking which would eventually cause engine failure, presumably through hard coke deposits getting into the sump and blocking the oil suction line.

Holden did not issue a recall for this problem but I believe they just checked vehicles as they came in for service and replaced engines as required. There is very limited info available and I only found one other instance in Australia (although I presume there are more) when I put a query onto a forum which has a number of rodeo owners.

I'm not sure if yours is diesel but this would be worth checking.
AnswerID: 490588

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