Should tourists be part of the environment?

Nick, I don't think is has anything to do with a few people doing the wrong thing. It is much more to do with an ideology that all things in nature are equal including people. Or perhaps that people are the least equal.

Cheers,
Kevin

Hullo Kevin
Being a Queenslander, you would no doubt be aware that some 80% of Qld is under an exploration or mining lease and that an alarming % of your prime agricultural land is being dug up and water sources contaminated by the coal industry, with 85% of the profits going overseas.
I suspect more land is being locked up with "no access" by mining than for any environmental reason.
If you want to find out more, suggest you read a book called "Rich land, Waste land" by Sharyn Munro
Cheers
Andrew

I think, Andrew, that you might have been watching too may news programs on the ABC. Who is Sharyn Munro that I would want to read what she has written?
Cheers,
Kevin

Kevin

Sharyn Munro is someone who spent 2 years researching and interviewing people all around Australia - farmers, townspeople, etc - who have been negatively impacted by coal mining, especially in the Hunter Region and central Qld, eg Darling Downs.

Families who have lived on properties for generations and are now experiencing polluted rivers, drying water tables, dust, noise and disintegrating social networks. People who previously have been rusted on conservative voters and who now feel totally abandoned and betrayed by their governments.

Her book is selling very well and she is being asked to speak by and to many communities in Qld, NSW and Vic. One woman even bought 100 copies to give to every member of parliament in her state.

Cheers
Andrew

Andrew & Jen posted

you are dreaming in fairyland

qld would be no different to wa where mining takes up about .001% of the land locked out be another bulk export comodity
- agriculture

its just sexy to blame mining wheras agriculture does colossal damage to the environment over huge areas and locks up vast areas of ground against travellers

if mining did .00000000000001% of what agricultre did lowly educated people like you would actually have something to complain about

Hullo get outmore
Perhaps if you read the book, we could have a more informed and factually based discussion.
BTW, I am intrigued as to how you accessed my education record.
Cheers
Andrew

OT, I know, but did you get my MM's,last week, Kevin..?..cheers....oldbaz.

No Mate. I've been looking out for a response but nothing has come through.
Kevin

I thought so..I sent two..would you like to give me your email ? By MM if you
prefer....cheers....oldbaz.

That's put very well Val.

As for another plague (Black Death). I suspect that is what will happen, either that or starvation.

Take a look at how the life and death cycle revolves around Lake Eyre itself. The rains come, brings out the fish, the pelicans come in, breed, continue to multiply, the warters recede, the fish die, and eventually thousands of starving to death.

This cycle is relatively short, but I'm sure it works for all living creatures, eventually.

Hi Val. Are you keeping an eye on us from the UK or are you home again.

I think most commentators call it as they see it but others will see it differently. Those who see their interests threatened by someone calling it as they see it have the right to respond. That is what is happening in this thread.

Bob's picture in the post above gave me a nostalgic pang as for the second year in succession I have been thwarted in my desire to drive the Birdsville track. But I thought that the cloud of dust was a bit puny and even multiplied by 4 or 5 thousand is still puny compared to even a modest dust storm. With all our mechanical devices humans are insignificant compared to the forces of nature.

Cheers,

Kevin

There is a problem with the human race unfortunately; it's the only species that is not an important part of the food chain and one that if it became extinct the rest would flourish.

In fact, many species would over populate and bring about their own demise. Scientists tell us that many species disappeared long before man came on the scene. We are, of course, at the top of the food chain. Except for crocodiles and great white sharks!:):):)
Cheers,
Kevin

Kevin, very much at home at the moment. Dont disagree about the right and value of an informed discussion - provided that it is actually informed. And therein lies some of the problem!

I think Bob has a good point about dust. Many will remember the great Melbourne dust storm of 1983 link here which moved about 50,000 tonnes of topsoil. (How much rock and dirt can heavy mining machinery move in a day?) Most of that TOPsoil (not sand out of the desert) came off farmland so one way or another there was some human contribution. I dont think humans have an insignificant impact - but, on the other hand, not as great an impact that some would have us believe.

As for food chains - there are very many of them, and every food chain has a top predator ie an animal that is not preyed upon to any great extent by any other animal. So think lions, elephants, blue whales, eagles, big sharks, vultures the list goes on and must include humans as consumers of food. However the food chain concept is pretty simplistic and does not take account of microbes which, throughout history, have probably had the greatest impact of any living thing on the human population (think, plague, cholera, spanish flu etc).

Landy, you are spot on with your Lake Eyre analogy, that cycle just has different time scales, and sooner or later will catch up with us all.

Cheers,

Val

Species will and have become extinct as part of natural evolution but nobody can doubt that humans as a species of animal have had a great impact in this that any other.

I dont think it is a fact at all that many species would do worse off with out us, Kevin. Not at all.

I'd like to thank you all for your intelligent input to this little thread.

I love getting out there and travelling throughout this great land. I appreciate every magnificent scene, the variety of flora and fauna, the pubs and the people.

For me that is what makes up my environment. When I pick up some firewood and there are little critters underneath it I'm truly sorry I've upturned their life but to collect wood for a fire that gives me warmth and helps me cook my dinner is part of my life. Most of them creatures will move on get on with their lives and hold no grudge. I understand Val's point about those barren campsites we've seen. They are disgusting and we avoid them unless we have no other option but, in terms of the history of the Earth, if those areas are barren for 15, 20, 50 years that is nothing in the history of the Planet. I wonder if our concern for the environment is for the planet or our ambience.

I don't feel inclined to walk across Australia but I truly love to load up my Landcruiser and head off. There are consequences for me doing this but at this point in time what I do is an acceptable way of life.

I understand people that are concerned with the effects of human activity on the environment but I can't understand why many people believe Australia should be as it was in 1788.
Mining, farming, cities, industry, housing, roads, everything we see today is having an effect on the environment but that is who we are at this point in time. The Earth will survive whatever we do to the outside bit have an influence on. If the human race was wiped out tomorrow the Earth will keep on going and something else will start to be the dominant species, maybe ants, maybe cockroaches, maybe magpies but something will.

Humans are overrated because I reckon a colony of ants has more smarts about it than any think tank in the land. Mother Nature has it all over us. While we sit around carrying on like we're the best thing on the planet all these little creatures are going about their business doing their best to keep their species multiplying.
Imagine if termites did a risk assessment of the impact of their actions upon a timber frame in a house. I reckon they couldn't give a rats, they just carry on and do what is best for the colony at this point in time.

I've rambled enough (too much).
Thanks to everyone that contributed to the discussion because there has been much wisdom in what has been said.


Steve

...delete great, insert greater.

Steve, a good case of the Tragedy of the Commons!
[Quote: The tragedy of the commons is a dilemma arising from the situation in which multiple individuals, acting independently and rationally consulting their own self-interest, will ultimately deplete a shared limited resource, even when it is clear that it is not in anyone's long-term interest for this to happen.]
Cheers
Andrew

Is that deep or am I shallow?

I think I get it.... too many cooks spoil the broth?

Steve

Hullo Steve

Sort of :-)

A classic example is fishing - eg, crays off the NW coast of Tasmania. First up there were stacks of very large crays and a few boats. Word spread and more boats moved in. Eventually they fished it so heavily that even breeding stocks got critically low. Nearly killed off the resource. Had to bring in quotas, number of boats, limited seasons, etc to try to achieve a sustainable catch, albeit of smaller crays.

In the longer term, it was not in anyones interest to kill the industry. But each boat owner acted in his own interest and ignored the cumulative impact.

The same goes for many environments we like to visit. For example, firewood in the desert. If the demand exceeds the sustainable supply, including enough for the survival of the local animals, the ecosystem breaks down. So we travel a bit further off the track and the tyre marks leave a slight depression. Not a problem, some people will say. Not until the next rains when the land begins to scour along the compressed tyre track depression over the flat land.

Cheers
Andrew

Fair enough.

I understand why many people are concerned about how we leave our mark on the land but I have been hearing people's concerns for a long time. Despite all the experts and laws and gates and fences all we hear is how everything is going bad. It makes me wonder if this is just our time and this is how we leave our mark.

I don't mean we should wantonly destroy everything. I mean the marks we leave, whether they be animal distinction, habitats changing, or scours in the Earth are just what we do.

If a lot of people go into the Lake Eyre Basin and leave their mark, that a shame but it's probably natural for humans to do that. Look at The Simpson now. It is more controlled than it ever has been and look at the state of the place. It's not a place I want to go to now but that's just me.

I admire people that have concerns for the environment but I have faith in Mother Nature. I do my bit to keep our land in good nick but I don't fret over things changing. I'm going to keep heading out and enjoying what we have until they lock me out, or up. I'll let others do the worrying.

Hoo roo

The forests of south west Western Australia used to have the tallest trees in the world, until they were cut down - now I think that honor goes to Sequoia Valley in the USA.

Imagine the tourism potential now if they were still standing.

Buy now, pay later!!!!

Alan