mysterious short lead

If it is what I think it is as per my first reply above

I just suggest that you examine the wiring connected at both ends of the plugs and satisfy yourself that it is wired correctly for 240v with all three pins the correct polarity........

I should have added that you will most likely get advice from qualified sparkys on here saying it is not legal and not to use it

they will be spot on in their advice........

by the way....most people carry them for situations when needed

hi mazcan

just goes to show how misleading peoples posts can be....one writes them and others get a different interpreation ......

I read your answer to the original post and then reread his first post...get another way of interpreation this time (with your answer in mind)

...maybe a mix of 12v...I doubt it but it just might be?...

I still think I read it as he meant it.....but did I ?

Hi to all, thankyou for your advice on this one, sorry if I made it hard to follow
yes I should have said 10amps, getting confused with 12vlts. Not a very good techo person and my computer gets confused too.
On your advice I have decided to throw out the short lead, I never intended to use it not knowing what dangers my erupt, also seemed strange to have two 240volt connections outside the van... ah well such is life...
many thanks for all your replies very much appreciated.
good travellling,
Stan

Hi cravenhaven, thanks for your interest, all I can say is it (short lead) looked pretty old to me... but its going into the bin in pieces.
regards
Stan

HI Stan
Re "Member - sangster(Vic) posted:
Hi cravenhaven, thanks for your interest, all I can say is it (short lead) looked pretty old to me... but its going into the bin in pieces.
regards
Stan""

I like that
A wise sensible man who does not just throw it away for others to find & misuse
YES, such a "adapter "s totally illegal

Should never be made up or used

Would have to be made up by an unqualified person, because no licensed
electrician would risk the penalties for making & supplying one

As others have posted a safe LEGAL lead [Ampfibian] is available & AT THIS TIME IS THE ONLY LEGAL MEANS OF CONNECTING ANY 15A plug to a 10A outlet.

Some say use "common sense"
A sometimes rare commodity especially if one does not know the consequences of their actions
Fortunately you did ask, others could find one & simply go ahead & use it

The person whole sold you the van with such a lead in it ,was either irresponsible or simply did not know better


Peter

Hi PeterD, thanks for that , will now go down to purchase the amphibian RV orange model or yellow...such a sensible idea.
Stan

Yes that is correct....we stayed at a caravan park recently and it only had 10A connection so we had to use one of those short adapter leads like the OP described. WE even used electric jug etc and there was no problem.
At home I have been using the same thing for years....I bought my short (about 400mm) 15A to 10A adapter lead at Bunnings years ago (maybe illegal now???)
Thereis no problem as long as you don't turn on every appliance. Basically used to charge batteries up as while van is in shed the solar charging is not possible.
AS far as I know the only difference between a 15A GPO and a 10A GPO is that in the 15A the wires are slightly thicker.
If used appropriately I believe there is no problem using that type of lead but thats just my decision.
Cheers

Yeah - it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I've got a 15a external plug on my 40 series tray canopy. All I use this for is to power the 40ltr Engel fridge, and charge the odd phone, ipad, rechargeable torch etc. All the canopy lighting (LED) runs off the 2nd 100 ah D/C battery.

Have an approved 15a power cord for caravan parks that run 15a, however also have a heavy duty 10a cord with a 15a female socket for those with the old fittings. Have a 240v cut-out fuse installed by a qualified electrician (hi Iain !!) and 12v fuses for all the connections inside the canopy. Used both on the last trip, as CP's still have a mix.

Know it's not legally 'kosher', however as long as you aren't running too much on the 10a cord - should be OK. Wouldn't do this is I owned a Caravan - would definitely get one of the Amfibians

So just theoretically, suppose I had the 15 amp connection on the side of my caravan replaced with a 10 amp jobby (if such a thing is available), left all the lovely 15 amp wiring in place and used a 10 amp-10m amp extension cord and this ran everything in my van just as a 10 amp supply does now, would this be legal??? and if not why not???

Cheers
Pop

I'm not a qualified sparky, so my opinion is probably not worth the electrons used to post this :-) .... however I suspect it really comes down to load.

Caravans can run multiple devices concurrently .... lighting, microwave, heating, water heater, pumps, TV's etc etc, so the 15a connection will carry as heavier load than a 10a connection. Run too much on a 10a cord, and you could wind up 'cooking' the connection or throwing fuses.

As others have indicated, it's not legal, however as a lot of CP's still have the 10a outlets, legality becomes a moot point.

Dunno, how much is too much. I suspect this change is in repsonse to evolving caravans and campervans which have a lot more electrical devices in them than the old days - even washing machines and dryers !!!

Yeah, you are probably right on the money about why the modern day tourist has to take everything including the washing machine, bread maker and coffee doohickey with them and the van or motor home power requirements could comfortably supply a small country town. Oh well back to the camp oven and bashing the clothes on a rock.....lol

Cheers
Pop

Hi Pop

Re "While I can understand the practice of modifying a 15amp plug to fit a 10amp GPO would be a big no no, in practical terms I would have thought the 10amp circuit would have overload protection that would cut the power if the draw exceeded the 10amp rating regardless of what was plugged into it making it impossible to draw 15 amps anyway.

Cheers
Pop""

That is where the whole situation is not understood

That 10A otlet will be protected by either a 16A or possibly even a 20A overload protector circuit breaker
That will not protect the 10A plug Or socket ,switch , from a 50% overload
Have a look @ your own fuse or circuit breaker that protects the 10A outlets in your home!!
Also bear in mind such breakers do not trip @ their rated current

They have a time lag which depending on the extant of the overload can take from seconds for a dead short to hours with a minor overload
Peter

pop2jocem posted:
So just theoretically, suppose I had the 15 amp connection on the side of my caravan replaced with a 10 amp jobby (if such a thing is available), left all the lovely 15 amp wiring in place and used a 10 amp-10m amp extension cord and this ran everything in my van just as a 10 amp supply does now, would this be legal??? and if not why not???

Cheers
Pop "

Hi Pop

Yes that is quite legal with ONE extra requirement
THAT you also have the VAN OLCB /RCD changed to 10Amp to again ensure NOONE can overload either the 10A extension lead or /plug /socket

There is no justication for a such ILLEGAL adapters

They are BANNED for very good reasons

One being that ,while some MAY understand how to limit the current, many will not & the potential for misuse either accidently or unkowingly exists

Peter

Member - Wamuranman posted:
AS far as I know the only difference between a 15A GPO and a 10A GPO is that in the 15A the wires are slightly thicker.
If used appropriately I believe there is no problem using that type of lead but thats just my decision.
Cheers




Hi
There may be usually be no/ is not any difference in the wiring in the wiring size for a SINGE 15A outlet & MULITPLE 10A outlets

The wiring will be either 15A or possibly 20A & the Wiring will be protected by a 16A OR a 20A circuit breaker as appropriate.
THE SIZE OF THE DEVICE/?APPLIANCE PLUG is the method of limiting the current from the outlet /Manufactures will only get approval for their equipment IF THE PLUG is correctly rated

Illegal changing fitting of a lower rated plug destroys that protection
AND such equipment is then NON COMPLIANT

IT is illegal to connect NON COMPLIANT equipment to 240v

AS you say the decision is yours AS long as you are prepared to carry that responsibility
BUT to leave such a device where others may find & use it is totally irresponsible IMO

Peter

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your reply. I must admit that while I have always understood that there was a time lag before a circuit breaker would react to an overload situation I did not realise that a 10 amp outlet was in fact protected by a 16 or 20 amp breaker. This amazes me as to why you can plug a 10 amp rated extension cord into such an outlet. Surely this would be an unsafe act. I did in fact have a look at the meter box fitted to our house and recently upgraded by a licenced sparky. The various circuits have breakers marked with "4.5kA". Now I assume they do not mean 4500 Amps. Getting back to the initial subject about how some have elected to get around the problem of having a 15 amp caravan connection and only a 10 amp GPO available. While some have fitted a 15 amp female plug to a lead which has a 10 amp rating and a 10 amp male to connect to the house/caravan park outlet, this is obviously a very unsafe situation. However in the case where a 15 amp extension with the appropriate 15 amp plugs fitted have had the earth pin at the male end reduced in size I would have thought, although strictly speaking probably illegal, should not be unsafe. In the case of the Amp Fibian device previously mentioned, it appears that a 10 amp male plug and lead is now supplying a 15 amp circuit but protected by a "nominally" 10 amp circuit breaker. This breaker and the one in the house GPO are obviously in parallel so which one would trip first, and if both, although 10 amp rated, may actually be 16 or 20 amp how is this any safer?

Cheers
Pop

Thinking about the situation in a house the circuit breaker may be called upon to supply and protect several GPO's on the same circuit each of which when added together may in fact be drawing in excess of 10 amps but individually no single one is drawing more than 10 amps. So I would guess in the situation where a couple of outlets may be required to supply say 8 amps each in total the breaker is seeing 16 amps, or am I looking at this incorrectly

Peter,

I never stated or inferred that I would leave my adapter lead for anyone else to use (they are too hard to get for a start).
I do not think its dangerous at all....myself and probably thousands of other caravaners have been using them for years when you could buy them from normal retail outlets such as Bunnings.
(in some caravan parks as stated you only have a 10A oulet as well)
It is simply a matter of keeping consumption to less than 10 amps at home while in use which is not hard as its used only to charge batteries, run a few LED lights while packing the van, and maybe running the fridge for 24hrs before leaving.
It certainly is no different from using the so called "legal" 15A plug and lead and loading up the circuit with electric HWS, AC, electric stove/oven, washing machine etc etc. It s easy to exceed a total of 15A with all the mod cons in a caravan these days. How is that any safer than using the 10A adapter with minimal load on it?

Cheers

RE" {quote }pop2jocem posted:
[1] This amazes me as to why you can plug a 10 amp rated extension cord into such an outlet. Surely this would be an unsafe act. I did in fact have a look at the meter box fitted to our house and recently up


[2]graded by a licenced sparky. The various circuits have breakers marked with "4.5kA". Now I assume they do not mean 4500 Amps. Getting back to the initial subject about how some have elected to get arou

[3]. However in the case where a 15 amp extension with the appropriate 15 amp plugs fitted have had the earth pin at the male end reduced in size I would have thought, although strictly speaking probably illegal, should not be unsafe.
[4] In the case of the Amp Fibian device previously mentioned, it appears that a 10 amp male plug and lead is now supplying a 15 amp circuit but protected by a "nominally" 10 amp circuit breaker. This breaker and the one in the house GPO are obviously in parallel so which one would trip first, and if both, although 10 amp rated, may actually be 16 or 20 amp how is this any safer?

Cheers
Pop {end Quote}


Hi Pop
All good sensible questions so I'll take thempoint by point & explain
[1]
The load on that 10Amp extension lead should be limited by the equipment connected only having a 10A plug [As required under the STANDARDS to suit its MAX continious RATED current]
That is the whole opoint
IF everything is according to the RULES & Standards, they all interlock from a protection position
Only when someone makes it non approved is that protection link broken
[2]The 4.5kA 4500Amps],is thier SAFE rupturing capacity , not the trip rating which must be on them
Many are not aware that undershort circuit conditions the current can climb very high before the protection trips
The protection must be capable of handling that very high current without failing [or catching fire]
This is a required consideration in a well designed electrical installation

[3]
Filing down the earth pin is illegal
It again allows overloading the supply socket & switch
The change makes the WHOLE lead, OR if on an appliance ,NON APPROVED

The big risk is in case of a fire, any insurance would be void if traced to that as the source
[4]The Amp fib is fitted with a 10Amp olcb to limit the continous current to 10A
It will allow some SAFE short time current over 10A due to the time /current delay
The breakers are in series, so the lowest rated will always trip first [unless there is some other loads on the higher rated one]

Peter
Happy to explain further if required

{Quote }pop2jocem posted:
Thinking about the situation in a house the circuit breaker may be called upon to supply and protect several GPO's on the same circuit each of which when added together may in fact be drawing in excess of 10 amps but individually no single one is drawing more than 10 amps. So I would guess in the situation where a couple of outlets may be required to supply say 8 amps each in total the breaker is seeing 16 amps, or am I looking at this incorrectly{end Quote}

Hi Pop
Yes the circuit breaker sees the cumulative current of all appliance in use at any one time
As long as the current /time facor of the Colcb is not exceeded ,IT WILL NOT TRIP
This combination is also safe for the wiring

The whole purpose of the OLCB is to protect the WIRING

It usualy does not protect the connected device unless only one device is is connected & the OLCB is rated for device protection or wiring protection which ever is the lesser
Peter

Hi Peter,,
Thank you for taking the time and effort to explain all that. I have certainly learnt a fair bit. I had another look at the circuit breakers installed in our meter box and apart from the voltage and frequency ratings and the part/model numbers no amperage rating is on them . I guess I would have to look up the model number to determine this. I think I will trust that my sparky has done the right thing.
Once again thanks mate.

Cheers
Pop

Quote"
[1]I never stated or inferred that I would leave my adapter lead for anyone else to use (they are too hard to get for a start).
2] do not think its dangerous at all....myself and probably thousands of other caravaners have been using them for years when you could buy them from normal retail outlets such as Bunnings.
(in some caravan parks as stated you only have a 10A oulet as well)
3]t is simply a matter of keeping consumption to less than 10 amps at home while in use which is not hard as its used only to charge batteries, run a few LED lights while packing the van, and maybe running the fridge for 24hrs before leaving.
[4]It certainly is no different from using the so called "legal" 15A plug and lead and loading up the circuit with electric HWS, AC, electric stove/oven, washing machine etc etc. It s easy to exceed a total of 15A with all the mod cons in a caravan these days. How is that any safer than using the 10A adapter with minimal load on it?
Cheers [end quote

Hi Wamuranman

Again best if I take it point by point

[1]Sorry if you misunderstood my intent
It was /is a general reply indicating the potential problem of risk, not directly aimed at you
but highlighting just what does/ can /did happen, with the OP

[2]
You are entitled to your opinion[every one is],but opinions & facts are not always the same
Why do you think you can no longer buy them
Simply because they should NEVER have been sold
They NEVER did comply with the AUs standard for such products
Bunnings & others where forced to withdraw them from sale, because they did not comply .were considered unsafe to have in the general public's hands

Sorry but the old story, put by many
"Ive been doing it for years with no problem" does not wash with me

They have been declared illegal . their use is illegal, serious consequences can result of that illegal use !!,

[4]
IT IS VERY DIFFERENT
Use of Ampfibian is entirely legal
IT has specific approval for connecting ANY device with a mandatory 15A plug to a 10A outlet
IT use limits the MAX CONTINIOUS current to 10Amps [ it will allow short term higher currents based on ITs OLCB current /time lag characteristics

It protects the 10Amp components of the circuit from overload & consequence heating

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your response.:

But my Point (4) is misunderstood. I would like your comment on that. I am not talking about an amp-fibian in use at all. All I am saying is if you are using a normal 15A lead/plug at a caravan park (say) and have all your appliance sturned on ...drawing say 18AMPs (through a 15A lead amd plug and power point). How is that different from me frawing say 7 amps through a 10A daapter lead (from a 10A household plug)
The point is caravalns are wired for 15A...but if everything is plugged in the load is more than 15A (and the safety switch doesn't trip at 15.1 Amps).

In regards being taken off the market...many products each year are taken off the market through large munltinationals lobbing to get their cheaper competition declared "illegal" or unsafe or whatever. How do you know the manufacturerers off the Ampfibian didn't arrange for a product selling at 10% of their price to be "taken" off the market. This goes on all the time.
Just recently a very good medical product...."animalitch" was taken out of retail shops not because it was not a good product but because a large multinational company didn't like its sales eating into their more expensive competitive product. Large corporations spend huge amounts of $s lobbying to get there competitors products declared "illegal". Its a common ploy use in business.
I'm sorry but I am very sceptical of some of your claims. Can you state examples of injuries that have been sustained by the use of the adapter lead? If you can I am happy to accept that there isnay be a risk. Like all equipment...it must be used within its capabilities and design parameters.
Cheers

Wamuranman and others,

The information that Peter (Oldtrack123) has posted is absolutely correct in all respects.

Electrical products are only "taken off the market" if the Authority becomes aware that the product does not conform to the applicable Australian Standards. Of course, another manufacturer may alert the Authority to the non-conformance of the said product and so they should.

I am not prepared to track-down instances of injuries caused by use of non-conforming equipment. You may care to search yourself. But I would comment that the engineers producing the Australian Electrical Standards do not wait until there is death or injury before producing standards intended to protect users. Their engineering knowledge and experience enables them to predict likely hazards and act before the event.

And he who is foolishly venturesome may accomplish the ultimate in life!

Cheers, Allan B, Electrical Engineer.

In my non-lecky mind, I would say that in a house there are several separate circuits for lights, gpo's air/con etc where-as in a van ALL power runs through the power lead input.
I too have a 'adaptor' lead made up to allow 10 amp gpo to 15 amp van input but it only ever is used to run the fridge for a couple days prior to a trip.
Even that is not used now as in our new house I have a 15A outlet.

Cheers Neil

That makes sense. Not knowing much about vans I thought they had fuses/circuits. I thought I saw some in a camper I looked at recently. Might have been something else.

Fact is that your fridge & microwave and other devices are typically plugged into fixed outlets protected by a fuse / circuit breaker and, potentially across 2 or more circuits, so the weakest link is the cable and that is the part we electricians protect, via a rule in the electrical standards called the coordination rule.

A typical home GPO will provide up to 16A, problem is if you then plugged your caravan into one of these outlets with a cheap extension cord that may only be 7.5A or 10A then you will overload the cable and potentially have an electrical fire on your hands.

A cable with a 15A Plug & Socket must have internal cables with a current capacity of at least 15A.

Cheers

Colin

Wamuranman posted:{Quote}"

[1]
But my Point (4) is misunderstood. I would like your comment on that. I am not talking about an amp-fibian in use at all. All I am saying is if you are using a normal 15A lead/plug at a caravan park (say) and have all your appliance sturned on ...drawing say 18AMPs (through a 15A lead amd plug and power point). How is that different from me frawing say 7 amps through a 10A daapter lead (from a 10A household plug)
The point is caravalns are wired for 15A...but if everything is plugged in the load is more than 15A (and the safety switch doesn't trip at 15.1 Amps).

[2] How do you know the manufacturerers off the Ampfibian didn't arrange for a product selling at 10% of their price to be "taken" off the market.
[3].
I'm sorry but I am very sceptical of some of your claims. Can you state examples of injuries that have been sustained by the use of the adapter lead? If you can I am happy to accept that there isnay be a risk. Like all equipment...it must be used within its capabilities and design parameters.
Cheers
He who is not courageous enough to take risks will accomplish nothing in life.
(Muhammad Ali) [end quote ]

Hi
Again I will reply point by point

[1]I am not quite sure as your point ,but I will attempt to reply
Ypor van & the CP outlet should be fitted with a 16A oLCB
If you draw yor suugested 18A due to having some high demand appliances runing either the van OLCB or the PARK OLCB WILL TRIP
The actual time it takes will depend on the current /time trip curve of the breakers AND ONLY ONE MAY TRIP
BUT the wiring plugs & sockets WILL BE PROTECTED from OVERLOAD
Obvously if you draw less than the OLCB's rated current it should not trip
Previous posts have explained the difference with a10A outlet [IT will most likely be protected by a 16A or possibly 20A OLCB
THAT WILL NOT PROTECT THE 10A plug , socket or switch from overload & possible fire
Even if the cable the cable is 15a rated
THE 10A OUTLET ,PLUG & SWITCH ARE THE WEAK Link !!

[2]
WHAT I do know is that such adapters never did , never could comply with the Standards requirements
They never did have approval
They were never submitted for approval
They were being illegally sold in breech of all the STATES' electrical REGULATIONS


[3] ANY experienced electrician will have seen the result of overloaded outlets [especially as the deterorate with age.Do you ever wonder what the real cause when you see
"house burnt down due to electrical fault"
Such are not broken downinto specic causes
IT would be good if they were ,then perhaps the deniers would understand
i

As Alan has pointed out
The rules & Standards are not drawnw up by fools or bureacrats

They are drawn up by highly experinced people in the field
The drafts are sent out to others in the various fields covered for comment Then the final copy is printed
All involved have many points to consider but the ones that concern this thread is SAFETY
Protection of lives & property from known problems & possible potential problems

[4] HE who takes risks when all the advise , laws , regulations & facts are against that risk is an IDIOT, IMHO

Peteri

Now that "bunch of grapes" thingy is SERIOUSLY dangerous. Because you now have one or two male 3-pin plugs connected to a 3-phase lighting controller with the potential to make those plugs 'alive' due to cross-feed from another phase.

In the intended application there should be no crossfeed between phases, because theatrical dimmer racks are infact made up of individual single phase dimmers...they are an assemby of single phase devices connected to 3 seperate phases.

BUT
If somehow one of these devices was used to connect a true 3 phase device or there was a wiring error...they could be very dangerous indeed

Don't like em never did...but unfortunately they seem to be considered a necessity in the lighting business.

cheers

Yes, I am aware of the construction of typical theatrical lighting devices.
However, the significant word is "there SHOULD be no crossfeed between phases".

Yes indeedy...... and we need to understand that informed electrical safety means thinking "incase there is something wrong"

Fortunately, our electrical system is so well contrived you generally have to do 3 stupid things to get in trouble

A 10 to 15 amp adaptor is 1 stupid thing...that leaves 2 wishes from the electrical safety fairy left.

A bunch of grapes...well I recon that uses up 2 wishes......ya only have to do one thing wrong before the electrical safety fairy cant help you.

When you run out of wishes, ya better hope prince charming is arround and he has kept his CPR skills current

cheers

LOL Bantam.

The real risk with electrical equipment is ignorance of the user. He thinks he understands it but is caught out by the one thing that he was not aware of. Then its 'Goodnight Sweetheart, its time to go'. (Platters, mid 50's for the younger ones)

Hi Bantam

RE :"As far as the ampfibian device being 100% legal.......well, I recon you could argue that for a week and not get an answer
There is no argument
The Amfibian is the legal way to connect ANY device which by law has a 15A plug to a10A socket

The difference between the illegal non approved[never approved ] adapters is that the Ampfibian HAS been designed to meet ALL the requirements of AS3000 ,AS3199 & specifically AS 3001

Those requirements include:
overload protection of the 10amp power outlet [by means of a 10A olcb]
Compliance with the length requirements for such devices
Compliance with the IP requirements [totally weather proof]
Compliance with the retention of the 15A plug from possible pull out
Compliance with the requirement for the provision for supporting the Ampfibian so no strain is put on the 10amp plug & socket [again to minimise the risk of pull out
It does meet the requirements of CL4 of AS3001:2008
IT has been fully approved & has an approval number allocated to it & as by law ON IT
See if you can find that on any of the straight 10A< 15A adapters OR ANY OTHER HOME MADE EFFORTS

Peter

Sorry to be picky but

I have a coppy of the certificate SGS/110126 the model number listed on the certificate is RV-02....this is an RCD unit with a 10 amp plug and a 15 amp socket

If this is the approval number in question it is for a portable RCD unit.


If there is there is a plain and simple adaptor that has a 10 amp plug on on side and a 15 amp socket with a circuit breaker in between.

Clearly this is not an RCD unit.

Please also show me anywhere in AS3000, AS3100, AS3190 or any other standard for that matter where it is specificaly permitted to supply a 15 amp socket from a 10 amp circuit breaker, or likewise anywhere that specificaly allows any device to have a 10 amp input plug and a 15 amp outlet plug on the same circuit in the same device.

Believe me I would dearly like this item to be 100% legal and compliant, but I doubt very much that it is.

As it stands, unless someone can show me chapter and verse, proving that it is legal. As an electrical worker I must refuse to tag such a unit......in fact under QLD regulations I am required to render it safe by cutting the plug off it if it comes in to my possession.

cheers

Hi Bantam

For a start there are two models one which only has a 10A OLCB
the other has a 10A olcb /rcd combo
Both are fully approved with an AUS /NSW approval number, AS required

You have concerns yet you would no doubt be ready to tag the Clipsal type power boxes which ARE NOT APPROVED under AS3001 for" transportable structure" uses
In fact those complying to AS 3105 are SPECIFICALLY FORBIDEN for such use

Before you cut the plug off you should become better informed

You should know how to do that, just a call to the ESO.
MAKE a call tomorrow & then post what you have found out

I DO HOPE YOU CUT ALL THE PLUGS OFF THOSE ILLEGAL NON APPROVED adapters

AS a licensed electrician THAT IS YOUR DUTY

Just as it is your duty not to make up or supply non approved devices

IF you have concerns about the Ampfibian not being fully approved, it is also your duty to report your concerns



Peter
I assure the ESOs act quickly on such reports !

Hi
I cannot edit But the Qld ESo will be a good start they will also answer any other things you may not understand
I do hope you tell them about those ilegal ones you know of.
After all that is your duty

Actually if i remember correctly an intertainer was electrocuted recently while on stage
I bet that will bring some interesting non compliances to light & some one will end up in deep C#*P
Possible manslaughter charges TOO

Peter

Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water and get all twisted about what other people are doing.

The claim is that a device with a 10 amp plug and a 15 amp socket can be 100% legal.

If some one can show me how it can be under the regs I am all ears.
It would be a far better situation that has existed to this point.

If this "ampfibian" product is 100% legal, that means any number of "individually fabricated" items can be legal also, the implications are wide ranging.

The sticking point is the 10 amp plug and the 15 amp socket.

Unlike the past, we now live in a world of private certifiers, self administration and near nonexistant enforcement. No longer can we rely on something being legal in a particular application because the supplier says it is or because it has an approval number on it.

In the past issue of approval numbers was the exclusive preserve of the state authorities under the federal scheme, now that private certifiers are involved, the process has become less certain and more convoluted.

We as electrical workers or as suppliers of electrical equipment (especially in QLD) are obliged to know if an item is or isnt compliant In the application independent of the responsibilities or claims of others.

That means anybody claiming such a device is "100% legal" needs to be able to quote chapter and verse to support the claim.

Believe me this is not the first nor will it be the last time I have had reservations about something that is openly on sale and borne some sort of approval or certification mark.

Be certain I will be making further enquiries.

cheers

If I get the time

Section 2.4.3 Protection against Overload
2.4.3.2 coordination
Ib</= In </= Iz

Ib = Max Demand
In = Nominal current of protective device (circuit breaker)
Iz = Continuos current capacity of cable

So it can be assumed that provided that the 10A plug is protected by a 10A breaker (subject to 2.4.4.4) then you could have whatever size doesn't matter at the other end as the cable is protected and the breaker will trip once there is a continuos overload.

Not trying to be a smart ar$e but wanting to take some emotion out of this and put a extract of the wiring rules in the mix.

Cheers

Colin

Bantam,

Unfortunately I am in a location where I cannot access my Standards library. However I think you will find that the requirements for protection against overload define only that the protection device (OLCB) shall not have a rating higher than the wiring or equipment being protected. Accordingly, it is permissible to protect a 15A rated GPO with a 10A OLCB.

Hi Bantam

By your reasoning ALL the EPODS by Clipsal & Arlec cannot be approved


They consist of a 10A plug & cable protected by a 10A olcb

They have multiple outlets with some including a15A outlet in addition to 10A outlets

THAT is not a problem as they are not EXTENSION LEADS , AS 3199 does not apply
AS/NZS 3105 is the STANDARD covering them

Just to clear up one of the points I made in earlier posts
I said the Ampfibian is the only approved device that is legal to connect ANY device which is factory fitted & requires a 15A plug to a 10A supply
The word ANY is important
Other devices such as the EPODS are approved for certain uses & are rated accordingly & can be used to connect a 15A plug to power
some for light general purpose use ,others for heavier use

BUT none, except the Ampfibian, meet the specific requirements of AS/NZS 3001:2008 for use in /with "Transportable STructures"
Quite a few clause which the EPODS do not comply with

The Standards specifically says "Outlet boxes complying to AS 3105 SHALL NOT BE USED"

Just one other point
The Ampfibian was recently remodelled when it was found to not comply to AS3001 in one small detail
Not a dangerous or serious problem, just a minor point which required a change in enclosure design.

Peter


PS To Colin & Allan

Yes that is the rule which allows van inlet socket to be changed to10A but can still be connected to a 15A outlet provided the VAN olcb is also changed to 10A
A standard 10A extension lead can then be used

Can I just raise another issue from a slightly different perspective regarding the Ampfibian device.

It looks to me that it simply an extension lead with a bit of "technology" at the end that another extension lead can be plugged into.

My understanding is that it is not legal to connect two extension leads - please correct me if am wrong here!

Bob

HI Bob

I was waiting for someone to raise that good point
Simple answer
you are not joining two extension leads approved to AS3199[which, as you point out is not approved']
You are connecting to an "Approved Adapter"
Specially designed for that purpose["transportable Structures "power supply connection] AND complies with ALL the requirements of the relevant Standards

Early models had a long lead which was pointed out & had to be reduced in length to comply as an "ADAPTER"
That's the reason it is short
I listed some of those specifics reqs earlier, for but will just repeat some
MAX length
Weather protection
Plug retention to prevent pull out of 15A plug
Mechanical protection
Support to remove strain on inlet connection from 10A outlet&possible pull out
OLCB

ALL & more required & covered in AS 3001:2008

Peter

OT,

Thanks for the clarification!

Bob

hi all
imho if anyone finds a caravan park with old 10amp sockets in their power boxes and the management is charging you a fee to stay and expect caravan owners /travellers to plug into it for starters the regulation 15amp cable plug with the big earth pin wont fit
the caravaner /camper finder of this should immediately report the matter to the relevant power authorities in that state so these can be inspected and classed as illegal i have found broken sockets and switches and reported them to the c/park office and the manager took immediate actions to prevent any further use on both occasions
thats the only way these illegal parks will be brought up to the required regulation standard
i havent encountered any so far in w.a over a period of many years and never found any like that when i did the big lap
cheers

As its stands at the moment, my investigations continue.

I have spoken to a couple of state electrical regulators, who when I explained the device in question and directed them to a the web site.....more or less went WTF under their breath, and left me on hold while they made further enquiries.

It does appear due to "recent changes" in AS 3190 "Approval and test specification - Residual Current devices"

As far as I have been able to find out, this item in the form that contains a "Residual Current Device" is in fact legal in every state of Australia.

Which I think is great, because it solves a common problem and creates a precident.

At this point in my investigations, it is my understanding that such a device without an RCD function would not be legal.

NOW if you go to ampfibian's web site, there is only one product shown The RV-02, which is an RCD unit with a 10 amp plug and a 15 amp socket and a 10 amp mechanical circuit breaker.

While there are a number of other compliance issues that revolve arround its intended purpose and the fact that, if for retail sale it is a prescribed article.....these changes and this specific device create a very interesting precident.

While it may be the only product of its type for retail sale, this does not mean it is the only way of doing this, nor does it stop a licenced electrical worker fabricating a device with a similar function for this or another purpose.

cheers

HI Bantam
Well ,at least you do now accept the Ampfibian as being approved

But lets be more a little more detailed IT IS Specifically APPROVED FOR use with "TRANSPORTABLE STRUCTURES" Which under AS/NZS 3001:2008 have some very specific requirements

Which is why other devise which "appear" to have similar functions do not meet AS/NZS 3001 requirements[Clipsal & Arlec EPODS ,made& approved to AS3105]

Yes, A licensed electrician could make up a product that meets ALL those requirements
BUT would it be worthwhile with labour costs & adapting individual components

The Ampfibian can be used for general use
Anywhere where it is required to connect a 15A plug to a 10A socket

However do not be surprised if an even superior product becomes available soon
That will give TWO legal options

Peter

The main thing that concerens me is the central point to this thread.

That is.... under what circumstances is it permissable to connect an item with a 15 amp inlet plug, to a supply with a 10 amp socket.

And those circumstances are where there is both a RCD(earth leakage) and a MCB (overlaod) rated to the supply connection, in the circuit.....and dare I say acting on both active and neutral.

It is this function that flies in the face of electrical engineering and regulatory principles, that have stood for most of our lifetimes......untill recently.

I and many others out there could probably build a suitable and compliant device to perform this function from "bits we have lying arround" in a couple of hours.
The solution may be different and it may satisfy the requirements in other ways, but it could easily be done just the same.

Unless "approved" the item could not be offered for retail sale, but it would be legal.

I don't agree with the way it has come to pass in the standards, but that is hardly unusual.

The fact remains that there IS a legal and safe solution to a problem that has existed for a long time.

cheers

Hi Bantam

We may as well explore this to the end

RE:"[Quote And those circumstances are where there is both a RCD(earth leakage) and a MCB (overlaod) rated to the supply connection, in the circuit.....and dare I say acting on both active and neutral.

It is this function that flies in the face of electrical engineering and regulatory principles, that have stood for most of our lifetimes......untill recently[end quote ]

I see nothing wrong or contrary to any pasts rules or principles with such a device

Perhaps you could explain what you believe to be the problem??

Certainly switching ACTIVE & Neutral in THAT situation is not a problem & does not contravene any previous rules

ALL EPODS do the same thing


Peter

Again I keep comming back to it.

appart from the recent changes in AS3190 permitting this.

Show me any other standard current or passed that specificaly allows the supply of a 240 Volt 15 amp socket from a 10 amp supply or a 10 amp circuit breaker.

All EPODS do not do the same thing...most will either have 10 amp plugs where there are a 10 amp sockets or 15 amp plugs where there are 15 amp sockets.

AND

Show me one single "approved" product that either existed prior to the changes in AS3190, or that is current, does not have an RCD unit incorpirated and has a 10 amp plug and a 15 amp socket.

It is important that we understand WHY this is permitted and under what regulations and under what circumstances.

cheers

Hi Bantam
You & I KNOW that the Standards cannot cover every possible situation
They lay down the general requirements which ,if well understood, allow further devices & methods, Subject to those receiving approval



Bantam posted [quote

[1]Show me any other standard current or passed that specificaly allows the supply of a 240 Volt 15 amp socket from a 10 amp supply or a 10 amp circuit breaker.

[2]All EPODS do not do the same thing...most will either have 10 amp plugs where there are a 10 amp sockets or 15 amp plugs where there are 15 amp sockets.

AND

[3]Show me one single "approved" product that either existed prior to the changes in AS3190, or that is current, does not have an RCD unit incorpirated and has a 10 amp plug and a 15 amp socket.

[4]It is important that we understand WHY this is permitted and under what regulations and under what circumstances[end quote }

Hi
One at a time point by point
[1]
No standard will ever allow a DIRECT connection of a 15A continuous load to a lower rated supply , 10A[socket, switch or wiring]
But such is allowed IF the load is current limited to 10A by a suitable means [10A OLCB]

In fact that is specifically allowed for in AS3001, as one means of complying when using 10A supplies AND that has nothing to do with ANY recent changes to AS 3190

It is also in accordance with the standards to plug a 10A plug into a 15A outlet!!
PROVIDED ALL OTHER requirements of the various standards are met
THE WHOLE LOT INTERLOCK for safe use

[2] Suggest you have a good look at the Clipsal range
AND they to have been around for Quite a few years & many Rvers have been using them for the purpose of connecting their vans to a 10A outlet thinking they complied BUT "Epods complying to AS 3105 SHALL not be used" from AS 3001
"

[3]
I am not sure of the date of these recent changes to AS3190, perhaps you could post that date
But I would point out that the RCD is not the main requirement in any such device .
IT IS THE CURRENT LIMITING OLCB, without that the device would NEVER be approved
THE RCD does not perform THAT function

The original Amfibian did only have a 10A OLCB & complied for sale[issued by NSW]
IT did have a specific approval as there was no Standard that actually covered it
@ that time
However IT did satisfy the requirement for current limiting


[4]
[ a]IT was permitted because it DID NOT break any rules, standards or regulations ,
[b]because it meet the requirements specifically spelt out in AS 3001
[c]because the Standards could see problems AND this Amfibian fulfilled the need
This was a situation where the Standards [AS 3001] where asking for a product type that did not exist AND had ruled out EPODS complying to AS3105p
[e]because IT meet ALL the criteria, as seen, to give the required level of OVERLOAD protection

[d] RCD protection came later


You concern, I believe, lies with switching active & neutral[double pole switching]

That is the standard practise with any device AND HAS NO PROBLEMS
IT does not in anyway contradict the Standards or in anyway presents
operational or risk problems
IT IS IN FACT MANDATORY

Peter

Hi All
I have just did a web search for Clipsal Epods
IT seems a whole range has disappeared

This was the range which had both 10A & 15A outlets on the one unit , NOT the 485 series
The ones I am referring to also had a list of uses in the table
GONE!!!????

Peter

I've just had someone read the section of AS3190 ( RCD standard) that specificaly allows this device.

and Yes it is pretty specific, and the way it is written there is no doubt that its only reason for being there is to allow devices such as this.

I can't quote it because I don't have it in front of me BUT

AS3190 2011 section 5 point somything point something

more or less says that ya cant have a large rated socket than the plug EXCEPT, it in the case where there is a single 10 amp plug an RDC and MCB and a single 15 amp socket.

The wording is pretty danm specific

cheers

Hi Banbtam
Aaah, now you have found out that
[a]THAT the Ampfibian DOES meet those SPECIFIC requirements

[b]That the Clipsal Arlec etc products do not comply with that requirement

[c]THAT clause was specically added to meet the requirements of AS/NZS3001

[d] It is a new clause, added AFTER the original model [OLCB protected only Ampfibian was approved]

I would suugest that clause is only about 3<4 years old
Up to that time there was nothing in ANY standard which allowed a van with a 15A socket to be connected to a 10A power point legaly

[d]WHEN the Ampfibian first came onto the market [around 4 +years ago],there WAS no standards that covered it

[e]AT THAT TIME,IT WAS GIVEN A SPECIAL APPROVAL, but could not be referred to a standard simply because no standard existed covering such a device, BUT A NEED EXISTED UNDER AS 3001
It was quickly seen that it meet the needs


So the Ampfibian has been fully approved from the day that it hit the market some 4 +years ago

Of course that Clause did not exist when the now missing Arlec & Clipsal Epods [links]Caravan tents etc where being advertised as suitable for vans tents etc use

I wonder who alerted them to the fact that such did not comply to the REQ of AS3001
Perhaps one of the several ESOs I contacted

From another forum
by oldtrack123 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:06 pm

"Hi All
I earlier indicated that epods such as the Arlec & Clipsal 485 range were not an approved devise for THAT application OR for connecting vans etc as suggested by the RVMAA
I clearly indicated MY belief that they did not comply but I was seeking confirmation from the various state authorities
I sent each authority the identical email detailing my concerns
SO far WA & Tas have replies confirming my views
that:
Clipsal 485 series & similar Arlec products comply to AS /NZS3105
AS/NZS3001 :2008 forbids the use of products complying to AS /NZS 3105 as outlet boxes

Also The IP rating is not acceptable for that use

I SHALL post the other replies as they become available
Peter"

Here is the link
http://caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18262

Now this one did have some "EXPERTS" ???
http://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t32958990/ampfibian-10-amp-to-15-amp-240-volt-adaptor/

There are others
even on THIS forum


Peter

Seems there has been quite a bit of ting and frowing over this whole issues.

The current revision of the AS3190 standard came out in october last year less than two years after the previous full revision.

It is normal for standards to be revised every 5 years and changes made only when they are necessary.

It occurs to me that some of those previous EPOD products may have been compliant under the old standard but are not under the recent revision.

There are so many charges to standards these days I can see why people simply cant keep up.

cheers

Hi Bantam

The Clipsal & Arlec EPODS were compliant to AS3105 but not to AS 3190

But Actually AS 3190 does not set the bar high enough, as it allows IPx3
AS3001 calls for IPx4

BUT as I said before, "OUTLET BOXES SHALL NOT BE USED""AS stated in AS3001:2008
The standards AS3105 does not meet the requirements of AS3001:2008

However in the Clipsal link ,that is now missing, it was falsely claimed that they were suitable ,AS SOME MODELS HAD A 15 AMP OUTLET BUT WITH A 10A PLUG
That was part of the details & submission I drew to the attention of several different ESOs
By the way ,ALL States ESOs came back with the same answers.

SO it seems now ALL should accept the FACT that the Ampfibian is [at this time'] the ONLY fully approved legal means of connecting ANY load whose continuous rated current is bet,ween 10A & 15A to a 10A outlet

IT ALSO MEETS THE VERY SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS OF AS/NZS3001:2008

Peter

There is absolutly no necessity for the standard on RCD's to specify
a high IP rating, because there are many applications for such a device that are not weather exposed

A device as we are discussing definitely has other uses than caravans.

While the ampfibian may be the only "approved" device that does not mean it is the only legal way.

BTW there is no such thing as "fully approved", it is either "approved" or it isn't.

BTW there is no way of connectimng something that has a continuous load above 10 amps to a 10 amp outlet.

BTW what is your stake in the AMPFIBIAN

cheers

Well ,IT looks like we were not at the end of the road LOL

{Quote} The Bantam posted:
[1]There is absolutly no necessity for the standard on RCD's to specify
a high IP rating, because there are many applications for such a device that are not weather exposed

[2]A device as we are discussing definitely has other uses than caravans.

[3]While the ampfibian may be the only "approved" device that does not mean it is the only legal way.

[4]BTW there is no such thing as "fully approved", it is either "approved" or it isn't.

[5]BTW there is no way of connectimng something that has a continuous load above 10 amps to a 10 amp outlet.

[6]BTW what is your stake in the AMPFIBIAN

cheer[sEND quote}

HI
Again taking them point by point

[1]
Of course a RCD in itself does not have /need an IP rating
BUT the equipment it is used in MAY require an IP rating, AS in this case within a lead which can be used in various types of conditions
That was my point
[2]
I think I have made THAT point several times

IT CAN BE USED IN ANY SITUATION WHERE A DEVICE FITED WITH A 15a plug[ required due to THAT device's continuous rating being in excess of 10A but no more than15A] is required to be connected to ANY 10A outlet

[3]YES,there are other ways ,provided those other ways meet ALL the requirement for supply to "Transportable Structures"

[4]To make that clearer

Many devises can have approval for particular types of use or environments
But may not be approved for use in SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES/environments
My "FULLY APPROVED" was to indicate the Ampfibian meets the specific requirements of AS3001

[5] Max load current & continuous rated current does not mean the same thing
Some devices may have a current draw well in excess of their continuous rated current or load
It's based on DUTY CYCLE OR DIVERSITY FACTOR
Manual arcs Welding machines are typical with low duty cycles,even common motor driven tools


A van can have a total connected load well in excess of 15A ,but never trip a 16A OLCB

[6]
Strange as it may seem ,ABSOLUTELY NO STAKE, no involvement with the Co ,
Do not KNOW anyone in the company
Am retired & have no financial interest in ANY way with the product

My sole purpose is to inform the public that there is a safe legal way to connect ANY device with a 15A plug to a 10A outlet for around $200
AND to try to explain the consequences of using ILLEGAL adapters or modified extension leads
I believe THAT SHOULD BE THE DUTY OF ANY /ALL Electricians rather than encourage the use of non approved devices !!!!!!!

Peter


Peter

Even more split hairs! LOL

Image Could Not Be Found

Well Scott, without huffing, I advise that the current regulations require all caravan park power outlets to be 15 Amp rated and be protected by an RCD (Safety Switch).

Now that is not to say that all caravan parks have complied with that regulation. It would seem that some 10A outlets are still in use.

So you would have to decide if encountering the condition of a 10A park outlet and a 15A van inlet. I cannot advise you to use anything other than a AmpFibian 10A to 15A adaptor as referred to above.

Allan B, Electrical Engineer

Unless there is some sort of specific regulatory requirements outside the standards, electrical installations have to comply with standards in force at the time they are constructed.....a great many installations of age would not comply with current standards.....and I dare say there is no means to compell them to be modified.

In QLD all renatal properties where required to be fitted with RCDs on all power curcuits, such complusion does not apply to owned residences.

Likewise there may be caravan parks out there or sectons of caravan parks that still have sites with 10 amp circuits and possibly no earth leakage protection,
because these installations where completed under old regulations.
I dare say there will be a few caravan sites first installed back in the 60's and 70's still in service today.

To upgrade these old installations may well require complete reinstallation, because they would have to comply with ALL current standards.

This "amp-fibian" product addresses both issues

cheers

Hi Bantam
AND I am in full agreement with the above post
Especialy with [quote"This "amp-fibian" product addresses both issues "[end quote] but I would add ,AND several others

And completely legal & approved with double pole RCD , OLCB, weather proof enclosure ETC ETC


Peter

Hi Allan
I hope so, l.o.l
It was a looong road
Hopefully all doubts regarding the Ampfibian's compliance hve been removed

Peter

Hi Allan
I hope so, l.o.l
It was a looong road
Hopefully all doubts regarding the Ampfibian's compliance hve been removed

Peter

To be sure, to be sure, Peter! LOL

HI Allan
Both wrong
NO, we were not there yet L.O.L

Peter

I think my head hurts !!!

Hi Scott
My head was starting to hurt TOO L.O.L
You have to be on your toes on some forums
Statements are not always just accepted and that is good.

Peter
WHO SAYS "you are never too old to learn""

Being loong retired, I no longer have access to all the Standards& amendments
Bantam's post on the Amendment to AS 3190 filled in a gap

Hi Mazcan, No I didnt realise it would be so informative, thats why this site is so great.
Sorry to say but the short lead has gone to heaven, I think its the best thing to be done. (Safety first eh)
Many many thanks to all that became involved as it has been very enlighting or very technical , but info is helpful never the less.
This is a great site keep up the good work.
Stan

I am very happy (and surprised) that the regulators have seen sense in allowing devices such as the ampfibian to be made and used.

In the past it simply would not have been entertained.

We now have a specification that allows a workable solution.

And we have a product available.

There is no longer any excuse for using dodgy 10 to 15 amp leads.

cheers