Exhaust Jack V High Lift Jack

Is that for both getting out of bogs and changing tyres GI?
Kevin

Sorry GimmeeIsolation but i would dispute this ..
"the Air/Exhaust Jack cannot slide out like the High Lift"
I was helping a fellow once he was bogged to chassis in some mud , down on one side only and as hard as we tried we could NOT to keep the exhaust jack under the car ...
I'm a fan of the high lift jack , But can be" very dangerous " .......
I have use mine for all sorts of things , very universal tool , take it everywhere with me ...used with a high level of common scene ... Note : never used in a bog !!!!

cheers nick

Is a high lift jack a kangaroo jack? In the 4WD course I did they called them widow makers.

Sorry GimmeeIsolation but i would dispute this ..
"the Air/Exhaust Jack cannot slide out like the High Lift"
Yes it can spew sideways if you do not set it up right, its not a magical self centering device.
if you set the bag up with some care, stop stressing and think about what you are trying to achieve, it ends up vertical, at least that's what happens for me. Having watched people trying to extricate themselves many times I do shake my head in amazement at what they try to do.
I don't get involved unless asked because I have broken my back twice so have spinal problems, cant shovel or lift heavy things, and people don't want advise anyway.
Living up here right on the beach north of Broome you get to see it all.
Most times Victorian and NSW plates. Funny buggers. The same ones that do not give a wave when out on the open road.
Cannot engineer things for people who just chuck it under and hope for the best.
My car has underbody protection plates standard so maybe the flat surface helps.
I have always found it easier and safer than the high lift.
I also use the rubber mats under and above the bag as per instructions.
I have lived in the Kimberley for nearly two decades and I have never heard of Boab Bill legend of the Kimberley either.

Maybe your boab bill he's been around for decades too ....LOL

Gday,
Hi-Lift jacks are only as dangerous as their operator. If used carefully they are a real handy jack.....geez if I were to have used the standard Toyota jack in a few places I used a Hi-lift I would still be there. Been in a few sutuations were I wouldnt and couldnt climb under a vehicle to position a Toyota jack where a Hi-lift was a lot easier and safer too.
Jacking plates are a good idea but I just use my BBQ plate.

Hairy - agree .... there are some situations where the standard bottle jack wouldn't work.

4 basic rules of high lift jacks:

1. make sure you've got a solid base
2. make sure you've got a solid & correct mount point
3. make sure you don't go under the vehicle unless...
4. you've got a secondary protection - eg. spare wheels/rims, static jack, or blocks.

As long as you are careful and aware - should avoid any trouble - most of those who claim they're 'widow-makers' usually come form climbing under the vehicle with an unsteady base or mount point - blind freddy can see that's stupid.

The major problem with high lift jacks is they can and will, drop straight to the bottom if there is a momentary lack of weight when lowering.

This makes them VERY dangerous.

If the vehicle happens to shift, during lowering the whole shebang can come crashing down......combine that with some uneven ground...you could easily end up under a car when you did not plan to be.

I put high lift jacks up there with fire arms, chain saws, big angle grinders and spindle moulders.

All devices that bad things happen very quickly with.
All device a great many ignorant people handle carelessly

The beginning of using such things safely is understanding how dangerous they are and why thay are dangerous.

cheers

which is why you don't let them down with the wheel off and see my point 3 above...

".you could easily end up under a car when you did not plan to be. " - if everyone is clear and only one person is operating the lift clear of the vehicle - then should be OK

I don't see this as an issue of high lift jacks only .... no-one should be under a vehicle on a jack UNLESS there is secondary protection and certainly shouldn't be under a vehicle when ANY jack is in operation - I've seen hydraulic jacks and pneumatic lacks fail as well ........

No other jack is dependent on weight for the lowering mechanism to work without dropping to the ground.

Because they are mostly a recovery device high lift jacks are often used in situations wher the vehicle is not on flat ground, and the jack dropping without warning is a real issues.

if you are on flat ground you don't need a high lift jack and the factory jack is by far safer.

If you don't see the problem...you will probaly be one of those that will eventually get bitten.

These things are dangerous and vehicles fall off them all the time.

Treat em with the same respect as a running chainsaw.

cheers

Gday Bantam,

"No other jack is dependent on weight for the lowering mechanism to work without dropping to the ground."
No.....No other jack that Ive seen is also as reliable, gives you the same lift, or is as versatile and proven.

"Because they are mostly a recovery device high lift jacks are often used in situations wher the vehicle is not on flat ground"
Says who?and You can use them on unlevel surfaces as long as your vehicle is stabilized properly?

", and the jack dropping without warning is a real issues."
Not if your aware of it?....Ive never had an issuse with it or personally ever met anyone who has.

"If you don't see the problem...you will probaly be one of those that will eventually get bitten"
Purely your opinion. A bit arragant too isnt it?

"These things are dangerous and vehicles fall off them all the time."
Purely your opinion again.....I disagree. I believe its the operator........Ive never seen or heard of an accident yet with a Hi-Lift caused be a manufacturing fault....have you?

"Treat em with the same respect as a running chainsaw."
Yipee.......we can agree on one thing! Just like any tool or vehicle or you dont use common sense and be carefull you might get hurt!!

Cheers

"No other jack is dependent on weight for the lowering mechanism to work without dropping to the ground. " - I thought that's what Hydraulic jacks do.... but maybe I'm missing something?

Show me a hydraulic jack that drops straight to the bottom of its travel when the weight is taken off.

If ya not aware of this very real issue with high lift jacks....hell ya can't be very observant.

Try this.

Take ya high lift jack......put it into the rasing mode, operate it till it is half way up. with no load

Now..put it in the lowering mode.....if it does not immediately drop to the ground it will the first time you move the handle.

This is why, many of them have a lable or a plate on the saying "not to be used for changing tyres"

Sorry Hairy....not opinions FACTS

From the genuine "High-lift" jack manual

The jack must have a load of 150 lbs. or more to lower step-by-step. Otherwise, the lifting mechanism will slide down to the base plate, dropping your load. Ensure all bystanders are clear of the load being lowered

Under a banner "Danger"

Unexpected movement of the jack handle may result in the user being struck causing serious injury or death. Always keep your head away from and out of the jack handle path of movement.

In other words....the jack handle can come up and smack you in the chops.

Also under the "danger" banner.

DO NOT USE THE JACK TO SUPPORT OR STABILIZE A LOAD. Using the jack to support or stabilize a load may result in unexpected movement and result in serious injury, being crushed and death. Always securely chock and block (stabilize) the load to be lifted. Never place any part of the body under a raised load without properly chocking and supporting the load.

Do we not use a jack to "suport" the vehicle when changing a tire....unless you carry jack stands, a high lift jack is unsuitable for changing tires.

and another one under the "Danger" banner

Using the jack on curved or tubular vehicle bumpers will result in the vehicle slipping off the jack and falling, causing serious injury or death.


Remember this is from High-lift documentation.
conspicuous is the danger warnings and the words injury or death.

how abot some quotes from others

From Parry on 4wdAdventurers.
Never, ever get under a vehicle lifted with a Hi Lift Jack.
I have seen 4WDs fall off Hi Lift jacks on many occasions.
Always use the Hi Lift as the last resort.
I carry one but I always use the bottle jack if I possibly can.
Remember to keep your head and body well away from the handle.

From Off-road outdoors
WARNING… The High-Lift Jack is very powerful and can seriously injure you or worse if not operated properly! I’ve smashed my fingers, been hit in the head by the handle and had unsupported vehicles fall off the jack injuring me and damaging the vehicle

from paul on this forum
I bought a Highlift, tried it out a couple of times at home until I realised the thing was inherently dangerous by design.

from Big Red on overlander
there is no safe use of a Hi Lift Jack ...
thats your training done

they fall over, they get spat out, the handles take off like a hummingbirds wings, they bend, they jam and they break ...

the only safe way for you to use them is to get somebody else to use it for you

from JK enthusiast on JK forum
One more safety point. When lowering, keep your face away from the handle. The thing gets slick with mud and water and such, and they have a tendency to slip out of your hand and hit you in the face with a lot of force. Hasn't happened to me, but have seen it happen. It looks painful


serioulsy ya dont have to look far for high lift jack horror stories

If you google " fall off high lift jack", you get something like 10 million hits.

cheers

I suppose the fact that I said....

1. make sure you've got a solid base
2. make sure you've got a solid & correct mount point
3. make sure you don't go under the vehicle

was just me wasting electrons.....

BTW - I've seen 4 wheel drives hit a table drain and roll over .... the only safe way to use them is to not engage the gears - inherently dangerous things !!

cheers

yes you where wasting electrons because those 3 apply to all jacks, and do not address the very specific and significant risks and dangers only inherant in high lift jacks.

Of course there is the old cop out...everything is dangerous.... rubbish.

High lift type jacks have very specific and significant dangers that only apply to high lift type jacks....they require very specific care to be used safely.

cheers

"High lift type jacks have very specific and significant dangers that only apply to high lift type jacks"

not according to the Government safety standards.....

ADR standards

which doesn't single out high lift jacks alone.. fatalities happen on all types of lifts if you're silly enough to crawl under a vehicle without due care...

Damn some poeple dont have logical thaught processes.

In reference to ADRs.....show me a single vehicle built under current Australian Design Rules that comes supplied with a high lift type jack or comes with provision for or instructions for, the use off a high lift type jack.

reference to the ADRs is completly spurious.

BTW show me where in the ADRs ( I have them complete on hand), it specifies how a jack is built and functions.



When the standard for vehicle jacks AS2693, was made mandatory in consumer law back in 1993, it effectivly banned high lift jacks from sale in australia, the standard had to be specificaly altered to allow "special purpose jacks" such as high lift jacks to be sold under much lower standards than apply to general use vehicle jacks.

Since then there have been several high lift jacks either officially banned or withdrawn from sale for various reasons....some of them concerning caution labeling......required labels that more or less say they are dangerous and unsuitable for use as a general purose jack

Show me where you attach a high lift type jack to any manufacturers approved jacking point.

show me one other type of jack that letting go of the handle when lowering can cause a dangerous situation.

Show me one other type of jack that can have the handle fly up in your face with sufficient force to break your jaw or fracture your skull under any circumstances.

Show me one other type of jack that if you let go of the handle when lowereing and you happen to be unluckly can smack you in the face 3 times before you have time to react.

show me any other type of jack that a momentary lack of weight on the jack during lowering will cause the jack to drop uncontrollably to the bottom of its travel.

It is possibly the only jack that simply standing there on its base plate doing nothing, can kill or injure you......they are heavy and unstable, if they fall over and strike a lucky blow they can fracture your skull.
The High-Lift company themselves consider this worth mentioning...so it has probably happened.

I know there are plenty of people that love their high lift jacks and wont hear a word against them.

But it is an unavoidable truth that they are far more dangerous than almost any other type of jack.
If you cant accept that you simpley have ya head stuck in the sand.

cheers

"they are far more dangerous than almost any other type of jack. " - if you bother to read - I never said they weren't..... however any tool, if used improperly can be dangerous.

I just get a bit tired about the "[insert object] are dangerous and yer a mug if you use them - people are getting killed out there !!!" debates here.

I've heard the same thing said about snatch straps, winches, split rims, 10v power cords, gas fridges, air jacks, and so on.

If they're so inherently dangerous to life and limb, why haven't the regulators or safety Nazis banned them?

This is because there are so many people out there underplaying the very real safety issues and using all sorts of stuff without the proper methods and care.

AND they are getting killed and injured.

In Australia we average arround 1 death a year and hundreds of "reported" major injuries ( many more go unreported) atributable to vehicle jacks.

Whatever jack it is we have to be aware of the dangers specific to that device....High lift jacks ARE more dangerous than almost any other jack.

But they continue to have a cult like following in 4wd circles.

cheers

I'm wondering why the bantam is so anti high lift jack ..... I dont think he said !!!

I googled " fall off high lift jack "

trusted freiend

jaws of life / youtube

I must be the half full glass bloke ....LOL

cheers

This is the way things are...in this day and age we have a pretty good idea about what is dangerous about stuff.

With many things you have a choice......be honest and well informed about the specific dangers of stuff....using that information,take simple a straight forward measures that can reduce the chances of injury to parcticaly nothing.........or remain ignorant, deny the dangers exist and hope you are feeling lucky.

so...are ya feeling lucky

Bantam - I think we get your point you don't like the things - banging on ad nauseum just cheeses people off.....

Yep - I'm feeling lucky - I've used one about 2 dozen times without a hitch or problem .... so from my perspective they're fine.

Hi scott M : Agree , i use the high lift jack many times with out injury , I use a high lift jack to lift my stock crate on to my truck , used with common sense is fine .

But I'm still wondering why the bantam dozent ? his posts, the use of high lift jack IMO are pedantic & are of a third party .

cheers

Bantam,
You keep saying "Its Fact"......
Yet it sounds like everything you base your opinion, or fact, as you call it ,is on someone elses expieriences or a bloody google search?
So here are a couple of facts I found on a well known, very informative 4wd forum written by 4wd enthusiasts. Obviously these must be fact too......

'Hi-Lift jacks are only as dangerous as their operator"
"If used carefully they are a real handy jack"
"As long as you are careful and aware - should avoid any trouble"
"i use the high lift jack many times with out injury "
"I use a high lift jack to lift my stock crate on to my truck , used with common sense is fine"

Or do you just believe what you want to beleive , or go with what supports your own argument?

At the end of they day, there are thousands of people who have used Hi-lift jacks for years for multiple applications and will continue to for many years to come and will do so without any form of injury or near miss.

There are also people who arent mechanicaly or practicaly minded enough to use such a device without causing injury to themselves or others and should stay away from tools or devices that depend on the use of common sense, and stick to more simple things that can be used without so much thought.

You work out what catagorie you fit in on your own........

No one is suggesting Hi-lifts are idiot proof or that accidents dont happen. We are simply saying if used with caution they can be a handy jack....not the time bomb waiting to go off you are trying to portray. Try being a bit more open minded?


Have you personally used one much before? Whats your personal expierience with them?


Cheers

Forgot to add....
You make the point, "They are more dangerous......"
Of course they are, they have more applications and lift higher!!!!!
At least compare apples to apples?

Go back to your original post........."they are hellishly dangerous"........was your quote.
Dont you think that is a bit over the top?
How about......can be dangerous and cause injury if used incorectly????

Unfortunately there are always those who wont be told and are ignorant of simple and obvious risks, and are even more ignorant of simple methods and measures to almost completly remove those risks.

There are plenty of them arround, hardly a week goes by that I do not encounter yet another that is dismissive of modern and informed safety expectations.

I most certainly do have a high lift type jack, and I do use it...BUT it was obvious from the very first use that these devices have significant issues that most other jacks do not present.

The reason I raise the issues is because this and other forums like it are full of people who with no previous experience or knoweledge go out and buy these things, (becsue they are heavily promoted and have a near cult ststus in 4wd circles) then with out making themselves informed of the risks or safe procedures go out and use them.

Like so many other items that can be used perfectly safely, used in ignorance high lift jacks can and do injure maim and kill.

Saying they are "perfectly safe" and "there is no problem" helps no one.

cheers
cheers



.

Maybe you should re-read the posts.....I cant recall anyone ever saying "perfectly safe" ....people were just let the poster know there was more than on "OPINION" and its not everyones opinion that your bound to die if you buy one. LOL

Cheers

I think a few people need to get a room - apart form the initial comments - is now just a slanging match and adding nothing to the discussion.

Garry

Bantam quoted .....

how me one other type of jack that letting go of the handle when lowering can cause a dangerous situation. ...

Show me one other type of jack that can have the handle fly up in your face with sufficient force to break your jaw or fracture your skull under any circumstances. .....

Show me one other type of jack that if you let go of the handle when lowereing and you happen to be unluckly can smack you in the face 3 times before you have time to react. .

show me any other type of jack that a momentary lack of weight on the jack during lowering will cause the jack to drop uncontrollably to the bottom of its travel.

It is possibly the only jack that simply standing there on its base plate doing nothing, can kill or injure you......they are heavy and unstable, if they fall over and strike a lucky blow they can fracture your skull.
The High-Lift company themselves consider this worth mentioning...so it has probably happened.

un quote ...point 1,2,3 all are basically the some thing ..but how many of us would walk in front of a MOVING vehicle

point 4 & 5 re " momentary lack of weight ".... pedantic at the least ...

cheers

So ya recon being hit once in the face is the same as being hit in the face repeatedly

Pedantic.......well Hgh-lift themselves don't think so.

that is why

The jack must have a load of 150 lbs. or more to lower step-by-step. Otherwise, the lifting mechanism will slide down to the base plate, dropping your load. Ensure all bystanders are clear of the load being lowered

is printed in their manual

ANYWAY...some people wont be told.

cheers

anyway ..... some people just don't know when to give up

cheers

Yeh one of those "freak accidents"....that is entirly to be expected.

It should be assumed that all jacks can fail...and they all can and do in different ways.


Often keeping people clear of a recovery or jacking situation is not for their safety.

cheers

Joe,
forgot to say that you should get on some grass (neighbours will do) and spin the rear wheels to see if that LSD is working. Tojo LSD's don't normally work for very long.