Dual Solar Controllers?

Submitted: Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 01:07
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Hi electrical guru's

I got 160w roof mounted solar going to camper batteries via 20amp steca solar controller.

Just bought folding panels, 140w with integrated mppt solar controller, to get a bit more 'juice' for camper batteries.

I am happy do a bit of adjusting if necessary to direct new panels to the old controller - which would then be operating at capacity. But I am interested in opinions on just directing new panels /mppt controller straight to camper batteries, so that there would be 2 solar controllers going to camper batteries, each with about 10 amps max on typical sunny days.

Any comments appreciated. cheers
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Reply By: philldeb - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 07:13

Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 07:13
Two controllers will not work as good as one They keep telling each other that the batteries are full but it is only the current from each panel confusing each controler
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Reply By: Member - John and Val - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 07:38

Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 07:38
You'll be pretty close to the steca's 20A limit, but I'd go that way and not use the new controller. As Phil says, the two controllers will probably confuse each other if you try to run them together.

If you do elect to run both controllers, I'd suggest installing the new one at the battery end of the panel cable, rather than at the panel - more efficient to have any cable losses "upstream" of the controller.

Cheers

John
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Follow Up By: jdpatrol - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 22:36

Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 22:36
Hi John, just wondering, are there any risks if panels deliver over 20amps?
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Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Wednesday, Jan 16, 2013 at 07:53

Wednesday, Jan 16, 2013 at 07:53
JD,

Just read the manual for the 20A Steca controller and note that it is not an MPPT type, and consequently will simply pass on the panel current (amps) until the battery is close to charged. It will then cycle, providing short pulses of current until the battery voltage drops down due to some threshold level when it resumes full-on charging. Such pulsing will most certainly upset an MPPT controller that is trying to decide, on the basis of battery voltage, how much charge to send through to the battery. Likewise the MPPT's operation will confuse the Steca. Only controllers specifically designed to work together (where one can take control of the whole operation and the others become 'slaves') should be used together.

Can your 20A Steca handle over 20A? Dunno, but it's from a respected manufacturer and I'd expect that you have a safety margin. The important factor though is that if it is not an MPPT controller, the maximum current to the batteries is what is delivered from the panels (there is no extra current generated by the controller using the excess panel voltage, as happens using an MPPT controller). Your 300W of panels are rated at their peak power point, i.e. when running at about 17.5 - 18V, and consequently will deliver a maximum of about 300/17.5 = 17A, not the full 20A, so you should be safely within the controller's spec.

Another factor - It's very rare to actually see the full power output from your panels. Dirt on the panels, atmospheric absorption, sub-optimal orientation, cable losses, or simply the batteries' willingness to absorb charge, all reduce the charge rate.

Pity not to use the MPPT controller, but I'd reserve it for possible stand-alone use on the tug's battery as suggested below. I'd connect all your panels to the Steca for your main system.

Cheers

John
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Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Wednesday, Jan 16, 2013 at 07:58

Wednesday, Jan 16, 2013 at 07:58
OOOps.... Oh for an edit button!! second sentence - "battery voltage drops down due to some threshold level..." delete "due", then it makes sense.

John
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Follow Up By: jdpatrol - Wednesday, Jan 16, 2013 at 08:10

Wednesday, Jan 16, 2013 at 08:10
Thanks John, much appreciated
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Reply By: John & Deborah G - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 08:59

Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 08:59
Yes as previously stated you cannot have two controllers feeding the one battery bank. You need to disable one of the controllers and feed both solar banks into the one controller. Of course you will better from any controller that has MPPT capabilities provided you don't overload it.

Regards John Genge
AnswerID: 502587

Reply By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 11:17

Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 11:17
Hi jd,

I agree with the other replies - you should have all your panels going through one reg.

If you do that I presume your portables and the roof-mounted will be connected in parallel. If so, have you thought about blocking diodes in the output of each set?

You need those to stop backfeed from one set of panels to the other if one set is in shade and the other in sun.

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Reply By: Geoff in SA - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 12:48

Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 12:48
Hi Guys
If you do your research you will find its OK to run multiple controllers in parallel to a battery bank.
If one decides to limit the current the other will make up for this shortfall.

And as well most modern controllers have blocking diodes fitted to stop this perceived feedback.
Its only the very older models that seem to allow feedback.
My suggestion is to have the two controllers of the same make and capacity.
Else as mentioned get a bigger model.

The Morningstar Prostar Controller is able to be paralleled with up to 300amps capacity.
this model comes in either 15 or 30 amps.

Morningstar’s ProStar is the world’s leading
mid-range solar controller for both professional
and consumer applications.

This second generation ProStar:
• Adds new features and protections using highly advanced technology
• Provides longer battery life and improved system performance
• Sets new standards for reliability and self-diagnostics

Standard Features:
• Versions available: 15 or 30 amp 12 / 24 or 48 volt negative or positive ground
• Estimated 15 year life
• PWM series battery charging (not shunt)
• 3-position battery select: gel, sealed or flooded
• Very accurate control and measurement
• Jumper to eliminate telecom noise
• Parallel for up to 300 amps
• Temperature compensation
• Tropicalisation: conformal coating, stainless steel fasteners & anodized aluminum heat sink
• No switching or measurement in the grounded leg
• 100% solid state
• Very low voltage drops
• Current compensated low voltage disconnect (LVD)
• LED’s indicate battery status and faults
• Capable of 25% overloads
• Remote battery voltage sense terminals Electronic Protections:
• Short-circuit — solar and load
• Overload — solar and load
• Reverse polarity
• Reverse current at night
• High voltage disconnect
• High temperature disconnect
• Lightning and transient surge protection
• Loads protected from voltage spikes
• Automatic recovery with all protections

If you buy quality then there will be no issues. They also come with a 2 year warranty

See GEMAC Solar and Power on this site. They are able to supply all this stuff





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Follow Up By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 14:11

Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 14:11
Hi Geoff,

"And as well most modern controllers have blocking diodes fitted to stop this perceived feedback.
Its only the very older models that seem to allow feedback."

You've missed the point.

You are correct in saying that most modern controllers stop the feedback FROM THE BATTERY to the panels.

If the panels or panel groups are parallelled BEFORE the regulator blocking diodes are needed to stop one panel or group backfeeding to the other if one is shaded and the other not. The feedback is coming from the lit panels, not the battery.

Cheers



Cheers

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Follow Up By: jdpatrol - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 22:34

Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 22:34
Just checked. Panels all have blocking diodes at junction boxes on panels. Hopefully that should be ok . Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Wednesday, Jan 16, 2013 at 00:34

Wednesday, Jan 16, 2013 at 00:34
Jd,

They are almost certainly bypass diodes which have a different function. In very simple terms they protect the panel from backfeed within itself. Their presence or absence depends on the construction of the panel and also the quality - cheaper panels may not have them when perhaps they should.

Blocking diodes protect the panel from backfeed from other panels connected in parallel. The only time you need to consider them is if you intend to connect other panels in parallel, which is what you have described.

Most people don't bother with blocking diodes. However without them you run the risk of the back feed into the shaded panel creating hotspots which can damage cells. Also, the backfeed is lost power that should be going to the regulator to charge your battery. Instead it is going to the shaded panel and being wasted as heat.

The diodes are really cheap and installation is dead simple.

If you want more specific info, PM me.

Cheers

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Follow Up By: jdpatrol - Wednesday, Jan 16, 2013 at 07:51

Wednesday, Jan 16, 2013 at 07:51
Thanks Frank, i can't PM as I'm not a member anymore. Are you just talking about standard Jaycar diodes? I've got a few of those spare. Roof panels are Sharp polcrystalline so i hope they would be ok, new one's are Rich (?) - cheapee ?? may be, so I'll add diode on that line at least. cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Wednesday, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:07

Wednesday, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:07
Jd,
You need diodes in the output from BOTH panels. If you put them in only one line, only one panel is protected.

You need diodes that can handle the current (about 10 amps) and also the max possible reverse voltage (typically about 22V in a "12Volt" panel). And they need to be easy to work with in your application (think a cylindrical package with a wire out of each end), and have a low voltage drop.

All that adds up to a Schottky 5amp, 60V diode. Use three in parallel to give you 15 amp current capacity so they are not working hard and staying cool. They come in packs of 10 for under 5 bucks, so I used 5 in parallel for each of my two panels, just to use 'em up.

I got mine fromRS Australia. If you order on line they deliver FOC within Australia. Order part number 701-0228.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: jdpatrol - Sunday, Feb 10, 2013 at 23:57

Sunday, Feb 10, 2013 at 23:57
Hi Frank, was busy so just getting back to this now. Been going through RS catalogue. Had a question or 2. With 701-0228 diode, spec say max forward voltage is 0.67v - is that ok? Also, why not use http://australia.rs-online.com/web/p/rectifier-schottky-diodes/6882000/, so don't have to connect 3 in parallel? Cheers
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Reply By: Lucko - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 13:47

Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 13:47
I have done something a little bit different. I have fixed panels on the van roof through a 30A Prostar regulator, all is good. I also have a foldup pair of panels. What I have done here is to have 2 pairs of cables from the panel. One pair direct from the panel output (ie. not through the panel's regulator) which I can connect into the van's Prostar which sees all 4 panels as 'one'. In this way I can boost house battery charging if necessary. The Prostar handles all 4 panels' output no problems. The other pair from the foldup is through the on board 10A Techtronics regulator. I can use these to top up tug battery, auxiliary battery, or whatever if I need to. I feel I get maximum flexibility from the system this way.

Mark
AnswerID: 502604

Reply By: The Bantam - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 15:50

Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 15:50
Unless you have two controllers that are designed, known and proven to work together I simply would not take the risk.

There are funky controllers that are specifficaly designed to be paralelled with like controllers.

That is one thing.

Trying to combine two controllers of unknown heritage is another all together, predicting how they will interact is little more than a lottery.

cheers
AnswerID: 502611

Reply By: jdpatrol - Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 22:38

Tuesday, Jan 15, 2013 at 22:38
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for responses.
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