Please think of others when on the road

Submitted: Thursday, Jan 17, 2013 at 21:41
ThreadID: 100040 Views:2670 Replies:17 FollowUps:24
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I recently travelled down the NSW south coast and was appalled by the way many drivers with camper vans caravans and camper trailers disregarded other drivers.

No one expects them to drive over the speed limit but it is ridiculous that they travel along in 100km roads at 70 to 80 km's with a stream of traffic behind them, then when you get to overtaking lanes they speed up so only a few cars can get past them.

The level of frustration that builds up with drivers behind them is an accident waiting to happen. I'm not talking about young hoons, but normal drivers who reasonably expect to be able to travel to their destination at something like the speed limit.

Please travel close to the speed limit, don't accelerate on overtaking lanes and think about pulling over occasionally to let the traffic behind you get past.
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Reply By: Noosa Fox - Thursday, Jan 17, 2013 at 22:05

Thursday, Jan 17, 2013 at 22:05
I tow a caravan and have experienced exactly what you have described by single cars and cars towing vans. It appears that some drivers don't have the confidence to drive close to the speed limit on a 2-way road, but when they have 2 lanes their confidence builds and they accelerate up to the speed limit.

When towing a caravan and you want to get past them you have to start accelerating just before the overtaking lane so you can get past them. I have an F250 & 21 ft Bushtracker van and travel at the speed limits and about 104 in 110 zones.

Recently I drove in Europe and found the drivers over there much more courteous than in Australia

Brian
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Follow Up By: Member - Old Girl - Thursday, Jan 17, 2013 at 22:48

Thursday, Jan 17, 2013 at 22:48
Same thoughts as Brian. How tempting is it to go to 110 when sign posted in NSW.
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Follow Up By: member - mazcan - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 00:13

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 00:13
hi noosa fox
i agree with your theory went to busselton yesterday and the same thing is happening here wa
one of those hippy wicked hire type vans was tootling along at 80 on the single lane each way section and there was a great line of traffic built up for nearly 1 km
behind it and as soon as he got to the double overtake section he wound it up to 110 and only those that went to fast got past him and then he slowed right back down again for the narrow section
like you said there seems to be a lack of confidence in their ability to drive on the single lane rd
or else they just like giving everyone the sh-ir----+++its
cheers
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Reply By: Member - Errol (York WA) - Thursday, Jan 17, 2013 at 23:04

Thursday, Jan 17, 2013 at 23:04
AAAAAh you Guys. I went back to driving a truck after many years. I do about 360k round trip twice a week. What I have seen on the roads in the last 4 months beggars belief. Cars doing 75 to 80 in a 110 zone, being overtaken on blind corners and double lines, let alone being cut off on several occasions. I can fully understand why truck drivers get so frustrated. Not saying all truckers are angles through. Errol
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Reply By: Member - John and Regina M - Thursday, Jan 17, 2013 at 23:16

Thursday, Jan 17, 2013 at 23:16
Yes it would appear those with the biggest and the best are the worst as well from my experience.
Brings to mind a (popular) saying my Grandfather coined.
'Never been in an accident'

But they caused quite a few.
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Reply By: Ozhumvee - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 00:10

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 00:10
The other thing at this time of the year is that there are a huge percentage that are on their annual holidays, not used to driving outside the big smoke and driving long distances.
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Follow Up By: Member - VickiW - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 20:05

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 20:05
Let's face it, they do the same thing every day to / from work or to the shops on a weekend. Thoughtless is a mindset, not something reserved for holidays. Either that or they haven't found the rear view mirror yet.
Cheers,
Vicki
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Reply By: Member - Ups and Downs - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 09:48

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 09:48
One other thing that gives me the irrits is the that the slow driver quite often sits out near the centre line.

Which means that to see if the road is clear to overtake I have to just about cross the dividing line to see ahead.

I'm no angel but when towing and slow and reaching an overtaking area I drop my speed even more. This is to allow for easier overtaking, and also to be seen to have not sped up.

Paul
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Reply By: Member - Alan H (QLD) - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 10:14

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 10:14
Maybe we do have to follow the Yanks.

In California it is against the law to have more than 5 vehicles held up behind you on single lane roads.

Maybe we should try it here.

Alan
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Reply By: Member - Bruce and Di T (SA) - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 11:03

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 11:03
We tow and van and usually travel at about 90 km/hour according to our GPS and about 96 according to our speedo. We rarely go any faster as in most cases it is not safe and in fact the highest speed we would ever travel with the van on would be 100km.hr. We feel that by doing that speed we are giving following traffic a chance to overtake when possible. We also keep an eye out for trucks and will call them on our radio to let them know that we know they are there and will ensure they get past us as quickly as possible. We feel they're working and we're not.

If we find we have several vehicles behind us we pull over as soon as we can to allow people to pass. Overtaking lanes can be a problem and I would hate to count the number of times a car has wound up from way, way behind us so that it could overtake regardless of where we could move at the end of the overtaking lane. As a consequence we now move out a little earlier to avoid being jammed in.

We also try to let following vehicles know when there is no traffic ahead. Whether or not they want to take that opportunity is really their decision.

Di and Bruce
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Follow Up By: CSeaJay - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 11:18

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 11:18
Di and Bruce

Unfortunatly you appear to be the minority,
I know there may be several follow-ups of others also doing the right thing but this is not evident on the open road. On my travels I see sooo many caravanners sitting on 80 or 90 with zero regad for the que behind them! Also on our outback Qld travels, we so often see an open and safe road, but they are sitting on 80 with frustrated road trains behind them!
CJ
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Reply By: SDG - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 11:17

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 11:17
My old man, a retired truck driver, who use to whinge about slow moving vans, is now travelling the counrty side, with other retired truck drivers, apparently all travelling under the limit.
They do keep an eye out for others on the road, let them pass etc.

A comment was made a few months back, that in twenty years of driving between Melbourne and Brisbane, up the Newell, two-three times a week, he has never seen any of it. Especially in daylight. I remember him doing the Adelaide run as well at night before that.
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Reply By: Brian Purdue - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:04

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:04
I do agree with you, bks and have found the worst of all are the "Caravan Clubs" Nose to tail and about 15 to 20 of them. Why they drive so close together confounds me - they can only see the vehicle in front and nothing of the scenery.

The other MAJOR offenders are road-trains. I recently (while stopped on the side of the road) saw THREE yes 3 road-trains traveling so close together that it would have been impossible to pass them one at a time. My guess is that it would have taken at least 10 kms to pass them. So caravaners are not the only ones.
Brian
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Reply By: Member - Rod N (QLD) - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:37

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:37
Whilst I try not to hold up traffic when towing I have a question for those who think they are being inconvenienced. Where are caravans etc supposed to pull off the road to let others pass? Do I slow down to a crawl looking for a safe place to pull off or do I suddenly brake hard if I see a suitable place?
I agree about the inconsiderate drivers that speed up on overtaking lanes are a problem. On the other side of the coin I detest the drivers that do not overtake when the opportunity exists, even when I slow down to assist them, and then tailgate as if it is my fault I am holding them up.

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Follow Up By: bks - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 13:07

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 13:07
My point really was there are many caravaners who can travel at the speed limit and seem to do so quite safely (obviously they slow up for hills etc..). The good caravaners seem to also not have a problem finding somewhere safe to pull over to the side, to allow a build up of traffic behind them to pass.

Perhaps those that feel unsafe travelling with the traffic flow should have a hard look at their driving skills and perhaps do a towing course. Alternately travel on routes or at times that don't disrupt traffic.

Those that speed up on passing lanes are just fools.
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Follow Up By: Member - Kevin S (QLD) - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 13:19

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 13:19
You raise a very good point about lack of places to pull over. The problem is made worse by the excessive use of the unbroken dividing lines at the centre of the road. Unless you can pull far enough to the left to provide a full vehicle width you are only inviting other drivers to break the law. We need a whole lot more passing lanes on single lane roads - and more rest areas that are not in towns.
Cheers,
Kevin
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Follow Up By: Member - Bruce and Di T (SA) - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 14:03

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 14:03
Another factor is that in most states a caravan and tow vehicle with a mass of 4.5 tonnes cannot travel at more then 100km per hour. So even if the posted speed limit is 110km/hour the driver would be breaking the law.

It's also surprising how many drivers do not realise that if a caravan is displaying a sign, DO NOT OVERTAKE TURNING VEHICLE, that is exactly what it means and the law allows them to use more than one lane if necessary. Of course they have to be 7.5 metres or more combined length.

Di and Bruce
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Follow Up By: bks - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 14:22

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 14:22
But there is no expectation that they travel at more than 100km/hour. It is travelling at 70k in 100 zones and not having the manners to allow traffic to pass when possible.

110 limits are either dual carrage way or long straight country roads so who cares what speed they do.
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Follow Up By: Will be Y - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 15:38

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 15:38
I agree Rod, recently travelled The Thunderbolts Way from Walcha to Gloucester, NSW, pulling a 20 ft caravan. This a mainly narrow single lane road in each direction, with no overtaking lanes on the south bound lane and no rest areas.
There are very few opportunities to pull off the road safely to let vehicles pass.
On a section of winding road with double lines most of the time I was travelling at about 85 km/hr and had a build up of six vehicles behind me, then a small section of no more than 500 meters of broken line where I slowed a little to let a couple of cars past, guess what idiot!! in car seven came from the rear and over took all just making it back over the double line in front of me and missing an oncoming car by meters?
Why do people risks their lives and others for a few minutes, fortunately I managed to find a farm entrance and pulled in to let the rest pass with many toots and waves from more sensible drivers.
cheers,
JJ


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Follow Up By: CSeaJay - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 15:45

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 15:45
Why?
Because they get frustrated byon belief by slow drivers causing this in the first place.
Not condoning the actions of that driver, but you opened the door. Read the original post again - not having a go at you but fact is it causes frustration to all following
CJ
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Follow Up By: Andrew & Jen - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 17:32

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 17:32
Good point Rod
One of my rigs (towing veh and van) weighs 8t. On flat open roads with sweeping curves, I travel at 95 to 100 kph, slowing and at times pulling off where appropriate and possible to facilitate overtaking. On hilly and winding roads, my speed is often far less than the speed limit and if possible, I pull over part way up and/or at the top of the hill to let people pass.
I rarely, if ever, get any acknowledgement from those I assist in this way (trucks excepted), with drivers from some states worse than others. Despite this and muttering under my breath, I continue to do it.
Now to a possible contentious point. We have a choice how we react to being delayed. For example, we could accept the situation and take the opportunity to just relax a bit and wait for an opportunity to pass. Or pull over for a unscheduled and maybe earlier break. Or whatever. Because frustration/anger can lead to high blood pressure, aggresive behaviour and impaired judgement - this in turn could lead to an accident with serious injury or death.
When I find myself in this situation - yes, I find myself delayed by slower vehicles at times - I say to myself, is it really worth it for, say at the worst, a 10 minute delay in an 8 hour drive?
Cheers
Andrew
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Reply By: Member - Terra'Mer - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 17:29

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 17:29
This week I have started driving an old 72 kombi and if I have enough time to safely slow down and pull off the road to let traffic past i will but I also understand that to slow down suddenly when the opportunity to pull over arises can be very dangerous and more frustrating than to stay on the road at 80km/hr. I certainly don't speed up at over taking opportunities unless it is a decline followed by a steep incline and i can build up speed to get up and over without going down to 2nd gear where there isn't a passing lane.

I was very excited today when i over took a truck on a hill!

I always wonder why drivers can't just relax and go with the flow when driving, especially when on holidays and when it is out of their control. Drivers need to learn to chill out and keep a cool head. The speed limit is a LIMIT not what everyone should try and reach all the time.

You should all imagine you're cruising in a groovy kombi and enjoy the view because you'll get there eventually ;)
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Follow Up By: Member - Terra'Mer - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 17:52

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 17:52
PS when i was in the police we were not concerned about slow drivers but we were very aware of the stupid, inconsiderate and down right dangerous things impatient thoughtless drivers do to get get past.
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 20:41

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 20:41
Sorry mate, but that is why so many people get offside with the highway patrol...
Concentrate on the speeders....but don't understand ( or care ) why they do it ?
Other countries fine slow drivers....here we almost encourage it ??

Sure there are always ratbags on the roads, but I think you'll find there is a clause in the rules relating to holding up the traffic and the need to pull over and let them pass !!!......have you ever booked someone for that ??? I'll bet not !! far easier to get the quota for booking a speedster !!

If someone can't travel at the speed limit due to weight or power of their tow vehicle, then that's OK, but when someone doesn't want to travel at the limit cause they just don't want to....then that is selfish..

By the way, I tow a small van, but I'll sit on the speed limit, and if someone comes up behind exeeding the limit, I'll do my best to let him past as best I can..
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Follow Up By: Member Andys Adventures - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 21:02

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 21:02
Hi Gronk,
Their is NO excuse for speeding. And their is no law that says you must travel at the speed limit.
If you live in Sydney, I'd like you to try and do the speed limit down the M4 at say 7.30 am and see how far you get. Drive to the conditions not the limit.
Andy
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Reply By: Member Andys Adventures - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 19:39

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 19:39
Hi bks,
People travelling at 70 or 80 kph are doing so because that is the speed they feel safe with. Speed limits are just that, limits, they are not the speed you have to travel, it is the road conditions that determine the speed.
Some drivers think that 100kph speed limit means you have to drive at 100kph, even when a sign says corner 75kph, just still do 100. Limit means that is as fast as you can travel, not the speed to travel.
When I had a backhoe and was working on the Mid North Coast NSW I drove the backhoe with top speed of 27 kph on the Hwy which had a speed limit of 80 kph. The job was 33klm long and if I had to go from one end to the other I was on the Hwy, traffic banked up behind me for klm as they was a concrete barrier all the way, so no pulling over. It is against the law to drive with one wheel over the fog line only taking half the lane as it encourages drivers to overtake and have head ons. Which happened 3 times on the job, 2 fatal. Drivers have to allow for these unforeseen events.
When I drive, without a trailer or caravan I only top 90kph on open roads.
All I can say is plan your trip a bit better and you won't get annoyed.
Andy
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 20:06

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 20:06
Thank God finally some common sense from Terra'Mer and Andy

So the limit, I repeat LIMIT, is 100 and someone who for whatever reason, maybe feel that particular piece of road is safer for them at 80 or 90 has to speed up just to meet your expectations.
Would you rather get yourself into such a state that overtaking in an unsafe place is better than waiting for a better area.

Chill out.

Pop
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Follow Up By: CSeaJay - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 20:37

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 20:37
Andy
Yes it is your prerogative to sit at 10 to 20 km/hr under the speed limit, but it is my prerogative to drive at the speed limit, and when others wanting to do that queue up behind you let them pass!
Thats all.
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 21:23

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 21:23
I agree with you, it is the maximum at which you are allowed to drive & is not mandatory.
This subject has almost become a weekly rant!
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 21:55

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 21:55
Yeah, right on Shaker.

Yes CseaJay not sure about prerogative but you certainly have the right to travel at the speed limit. Providing that road, weather, traffic conditions or whatever are favourable. The speed limit is posted to suit optimal conditions.
I agree that those who wish/need/have no choice but to travel slower should give following traffic every opportunity to pass, it's the curtious thing to do.

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: bks - Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 22:03

Friday, Jan 18, 2013 at 22:03
What right do you have to determine what speed I travel on the road. It is this attitude that I am complaining about. there are many many more drivers who want and expect to be able to drive at the speed limit but are prevented by fool like you.

Why should I have to drive along "smelling the roses" and arrive later than I need to just because of you lack of driving ability.

Why can lots of drivers with caravans travel at the speed limit but you are unwilling or unable to do so.

I suspect that it has nothing to do with driving safely just you are such tight ar..ses that you want to save on fuel costs and bugger everyone else on the road. again I repeat many drivers with caravans can drive quite comfortably at the sped limit why cant you?????

I think it is just utter selfishness.
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Follow Up By: Member Andys Adventures - Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 00:46

Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 00:46
bks,
I have every right to drive on the road. I hold a HR licence and if you don't like the speed I'm doing well you can overtake me.
What right do you have to tell me what speed I travel at.
So your statement that we are all fools if we don't drive at the speed limit, well their are a lot of fools out there at 7.00am on the M4 doing around 25 to 30 kph on a freeway with a speed limit 110kph. Please explain why they are not doing 110kph.
I have the right to drive at the speed that I determined to be safe and if you want to overtake under the road rules you can as long as it is done safely. I have no problem with someone wanting to do the speed limit, you will just have to wait till it is safe to do so.
It is people like you who get inpaintant and take risks to get to your destination as quick as they can.
Example; I was driving the Pacific Hwy Port Macquarie to Sydney and this fool overtook me 3 times during the trip. He was stopped by police the first time, he pulled over and got something to eat the second time, he got fuel the third time, and when I stopped at the lights at Hexham he was beside me. So why overtake did he get there any quicker.
Lesson: hare and the tortoise.
To answer your question (Why can lots of drivers with caravans travel at the speed limit but you are unwilling or unable to do so) Well I don't have the need for speed. We share the road, you do not own the road like you would like us to think.
Andy
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Follow Up By: Member Andys Adventures - Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 01:06

Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 01:06
Oh if you don't know the meaning of impatient this is from the Webster's dictionary:
Definition of IMPATIENT

1
a : not patient : restless or short of temper especially under irritation, delay, or opposition
b : intolerant 1
I believe that when your restless you should pullover and take a break, It's a sign of fatigue.
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Reply By: Lyn W3 - Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 07:46

Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 07:46
Wow....................

I'm with you on this on bks.

Quite frankly I find some of the comments on this thread quite astonishing.

The "I don't give a damn, I own the road and don't give a stuff about anyone else" attitude.

Amazing.
AnswerID: 502930

Follow Up By: bks - Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 11:05

Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 11:05
Thank you for you support. I find it amazing the way they are trying to justify inconveniencing large numbers of other drivers just because it suits them.

The arguments they put up about safety are just wrong. It is not hoons speeding along that are being inconvenienced just normal drivers who expect to be able to travel on the roads at the legal speed limit. I am not expecting them to break the speed limit as has been suggested just show some courtesy to the rest of the drivers.

As I keep repeating why can most Caravans travel along with the flow of the traffic, pull over occasionally or not speed up in the overtaking lanes to let traffic past. Yet these few seem to not be able too or worse feel justified in not doing so.

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Reply By: Member - Peter M (QLD) - Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 08:19

Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 08:19
In North Queensland (and probably other places too) the military send out convoys of trucks, APC's etc they travel at 80 ks BUT have a decent space between vehicles. On the terror road (Bruce Highway) there are very few places that have overtaking lanes (they are reserved for SE Qld). As a saleman doing 75000 ks per year I saw these convoys regularly but didn't have any trouble being on time for appointments etc. So the military must have it right.
When towning my van with my 2001 Patrol I travel at between 80 & 90 this allows drivers to over take me and NOT break the law. Remember that overtaking does not allow you to use excessive speed.
For many years we used to use our indicator to tell following vehicles that it was safe to overtake. But that doesn't seem to be in use now.
How about the idiots that tail gate the van and cannot see oncoming traffic and the tug driver can't see them?
Regards to all, stay safe
Peter M
AnswerID: 502934

Reply By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 09:13

Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 09:13
As i've gotten older,(i'm not that old!) I normally sit on about 90ks in a 100 limit on a trip packed with gear, Patrol is good on fuel at that speed and I like to drive to the conditions. The road conditions vary from vehicle to vehicle, a Patrol laden is different to a Porsche on a winding, down hill pass. I would rather let them go and meet them at their crash site , rather than being involved in their accident! And I have experienced just that! Michael
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Reply By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:27

Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:27
Just reading back through some of the comments about drivers being tight wad, incompetent etc. Its all a bit hard to understand the thinking. Everyone one the road has a different reason for their desired road speed. Its dangerous for a driver with say a large van to go belting along at 10k over the speed limit just to appease some goose in a Corolla sitting right up your backside, just because he think its safe for him to do so. Speaking of the speed limit. Try sitting on 100ks exactly and watch how many drivers overtake you, and even give the horn or a finger as they overtake out of their frustration of having to actually sit on the speed limit. Even the speed limit is never enough for some people!! Being courteous and allowing other motorists to pass as soon as it is safe is all that is necessary! It has occured to me that the people who say that some drivers think they own the road, actually carry on like they do.

Michael











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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 14:39

Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 14:39
Pretty much what you said Michael.

I'm sitting here reading all this stuff and have been advocating to chill out a bit people, what's more important arriving safely or being "DEAD on time"
Unfortunatly I am finding myself getting a bit hot under the collar with comments to the effect "get out of my way, I have the right to travel faster than you regardless".
Yes I have encountered heavy vehicles, and not just trucks, grinding their way up steep gradients because their weight will not let them go any faster.
Yes I have encountered heavy vehicles, and once again not just trucks, grinding their way down steep gradients and using low gears because they don't want to burn out their brakes so they don't have any in an emergency.
And yes I have encountered vehicles, not just trucks, travelling slower than me on flat roads. You know what, that's just the way it is. They have as much right to the road as I do.
I tow my van at a speedo indicated 94-96 kph. I know that I am actually doing about 90 kph. You want to go faster, be my guest, just overtake. I don't speed up just because the road is now straight.
I don't speed up when an overtaking lane comes along, in fact I slow a bit if there is traffic behind me to let them pass. Yes I agree it is ignorant not to do so.
I keep an eye on my mirrors so I can contact a truck that is behind me and let them know I will try to assist by slowing when they pull out and not before.
That's how I drive, that's what I will continue to do.
You don't like it....well as Ma Sheela once said...."tough titties"

Have a nice day
Pop
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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 15:43

Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 15:43
PoP! We often see on the news and on the road, cars mangled and people and whole families dead.. Driver error.... NO driver stupidity! Mostly bad driving behaviour, speeding, overtaking in stupid situations etc. Some just cant wait the 5ks till the next overtaking lane. People who dont like the way normal, competent and responsible drivers behavior on the road, should take a Coach and let the Coach driver worry about other drivers on the road. Michael

NSW Road slogan "The road is there to share".
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Reply By: Rockape - Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 14:56

Saturday, Jan 19, 2013 at 14:56
Here is a little good advise. Video obtained
from Rod Hannifeys web site.



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