GPS co-ordinates

I'm going to Birdsville in a few weeks and wanted to visit the page family grave site after reading about the tragedy on thee net does anybody have the co-ordinates as the hema map is miles off when I visited it a couple of years ago.
I need GPS coordinates for the page family grave. my e/mail is marlyn9155@bigpond.com or put it on the forum site
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Reply By: Nomadic Navara - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 08:49

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 08:49
What tragedy on the net? Which family graves?
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Follow Up By: Member - Terry W4 - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 08:59

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 08:59
Google is your friend
http://www.simpsondesert.fl.net.au/perish/
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Follow Up By: marty c - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 09:41

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 09:41
It was the page familly in 1963 they all perished on the birdsville track
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Reply By: Member - Alan H (QLD) - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 09:24

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 09:24
It is shown as

26 35 20
139 38 22

On the Great Desert Map SE

When going past there several years ago we tried to find a track into it but missed. believe the track comes from south side of position.

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Reply By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 09:40

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 09:40
Try this site.Monument Australia - Page Family Grave

Location:
Latitude: -27.020930 Longitude: +138.941931.
Or: 27° 1'15.35"S 138°56'30.95"E

Google search with "page family gravesite location" and ignored the explorox references.

There is a marker pin at that location on Google Earth. And it is quite close to the track. The other one is way out in the boondocks.

Best of luck.

Phil

Phil
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Follow Up By: marty c - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 10:25

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 10:25
you've given me 2 lots of co-ordinates which one is th graves
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 10:50

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 10:50
Phil gave you one set of co-ordinates, in 2 formats for whichever suits you most.

Also Marty, if you are more polite when people are helping you, people may be more tolerant to your lack of knowledge.





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Follow Up By: marty c - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 11:04

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 11:04
sorry if I came acrossin a bad light it's just frustration as I am leaving in a couple of weeks and the Hema map co-ordinates are not accurate
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Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 11:14

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 11:14
No worries mate.

I understood from the start and appreciate the direct question.

Cut and paste both (one at a time) into Google Earth and they should show a location pin just under the current track. You can also see where the older track was that they would have used.

Don't include the Latitude and Lontitude words or any punctuation.

Phil
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Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 11:50

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 11:50
This may also help. I inserted a waypoint into the Hema map and took a screen dump showing the waypoint and the edit position screen for the waypoint.

If I was you I would also compare this data with other more knowledgeable users. I am not perfect mate and seing there is some confusion keep looking. I will also.

Phil


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Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 17:02

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 17:02
The police and Airforce C130 found the bodies between Beckwith Swamp and Kooncheira Waterhole. They were buried near where they were found. That would agree with the Hema Great Desert Tracks, South East Sheet red dot near Geake Hill which is between those two locations. That puts the grave near Geake Hill. Geake hill is at: 26 35 36.1 S 139 37 54.8 E Coochaperonie Waterhole is on the eastern side of the dune which includes Geake Hill.

In the photo at http://www.bonzle.com/c/a?a=p&p=37991&cmd=sp&d=pics from the womans shadow, we can see a wet or damp area to the east of the grave site. That could mean that the grave is some where between the dune and Coochaparoonie waterhole. If you look on the Tropo 250 map there is a track heading east from the Birdsville Track at the southern end of the dune that would get you over the other side of the dune and from Google earth there is a faint track running northish that could possible lead to the grave. Also agreeing with the maps so far. The only error appears in the coordinates shown on the Hema maps.

References:
The Tragic Page Family Perish at:http://www.simpsondesert.fl.net.au/perisha/
Photo near Geake Hill at: http://www.bonzle.com/c/a?a=p&p=37991&cmd=sp&d=pics and http://www.bonzle.com/c/a?a=pic&fn=1j1bgrdl&s=4
Topo 250 map and Hema maps of the area,
Google earth
Bonzl.com

I have sent an email to the person who took the photo of the grave site. Hopefully we should get some good accurate information from him.

Phil
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Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 18:04

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 18:04
I just received this:

Quote
We had the co-ordinates in our GPS (26 35 20S 139 38 22E) as per HEMA map and as we traveled south from Birdsville it was on the eastern side of the track. When the waypoint is due east from the Birdsville Track you will see a parking area to the east - keep going. If you travel about 1 - 2 klms further south on the Birdsville Track you will see a track off to the left. When we were there it was marked with an orange traffic cone. If you follow this and keep in a generally northerly direction you will come to the grave.
Unquote

This kind of matches what I found out above. And matches others data below.

I hope this is helpful.

Phil
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Reply By: Member - Alan H (QLD) - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 10:38

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 10:38
The coordinates listed on the monument site are the wrong side of the track.

The grave is on the east side of the track.

The Hema desert map seem to be about right to my knowledge (I have never been there)

Alan
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Follow Up By: marty c - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 11:01

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 11:01
I got he co-ordinates from the hema CD desert maps and when i got to the co-ordinates I walked around for about an hour and there was no sign of anything. I also had the JC ruins co-ordinates and they were 5 k/s out so I don't trust hema maps
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Follow Up By: TerraFirma - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 13:00

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 13:00
Marty, Also bear in mind that GPS co-ordinates are in themselves often problematic. The reasons for this are numerous, there are numerous GPS Datum formats, Google for example have this explanation: (Also accuracy with various mapping formats is sometimes an issue)


Understanding coordinates in Google Maps


There are many ways to show a place on a map. For example, the latitude and longitude of the Basilica of la Sagrada Familia in Barcelona can be expressed as:
•Degrees, minutes and seconds 41° 24' 12.1674", 2° 10' 26.508"
•Degrees and decimal minutes 41 24.2028, 2 10.4418
•Decimal degrees 41.40338, 2.17403

Google Maps coordinates are expressed in decimal degrees to comply with the most common Geographic Information Systems.

When using Google Maps you can search by coordinates expressed in different formats and alternatively you can find out the coordinates of a point.

Sending a location to your navigation device is easy, you can:
•Send that location directly to your device, to learn more visit the help article dedicated to Using Maps with your navigation device
•Convert the coordinates to your specific device input format for manual enter. The rounding applied during the conversion can affect the accuracy of the location displayed on the map. Learn more about geographic coordinates conversion and start your journey with Google Maps.
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Follow Up By: equinox - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 14:52

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 14:52
The description of co-ordinates themselves are also ambiguous.

A feature is at a certain co-ordinate or location.
Whether you use dead reckoning, a sextant or a GPS to get there does not change its location or co-ordinate.

So there is no need to call a co-ordinate a "GPS co-ordinate". (unless you are refering to specific brands of GPS that use diffferent datums to the usual)


Looking for adventure.
In whatever comes our way.
"Outback Yonder"


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Follow Up By: TerraFirma - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 15:08

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 15:08
Ditto equinox...
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Follow Up By: Member - Judy and Laurie - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 20:44

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 20:44
Hi we went up the Birdsville track last year and also went looking for the page family grave and didn't find It . so we inquired at the info center and was told that the grave is actually on one of the cattle stations. its marked on the map but is further off the road than we thought. there are photos and newspaper clippings in the info center and also in the Birdsville bakery. hope this helps Judy
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Reply By: ExplorOz Team - Michelle - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 10:54

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 10:54
We've never found it either - tried looking for it in 1998. If you do find it Marty, please put the details into ExplorOz Places so that others can find it too.
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Follow Up By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 08:46

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 08:46
Hi Michelle

The full details of the site are below, so it will give you something to do today...


Cheers


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Reply By: Bazooka - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 11:55

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 11:55
What a sad story that was.
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Reply By: Rob K (VIC) - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 13:27

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 13:27
Hi marty c,

Trying viewing Thread 82436 on this forum.

Someone was asking a similar question to yours back in 2010.

Has a track plot shown on how to get to the grave site.

Cheers

Rob K
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz - David & Michelle - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 16:56

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 16:56
Rob,
Based on this forum page I have imported the track plot into the User Treks system and here are the details.

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Reply By: ExplorOz - David & Michelle - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 17:44

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 17:44
Marty & Others,

Based on the updates above I extracted the file from the Members File Swap system, massaged it in Ozi and published two version. The one in the above reply shows the whole route from Birdsville and this one which is just the Birdsville Track Turn Off to the site.



I may add this into the treknote as a point of interest.

Members Can directly download this file
Enjoy.
David (DM) & Michelle (MM)
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz - David & Michelle - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 19:09

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 19:09
OK spent some more time on this and have now added this deviation onto the ExplorOz Birdsville Track treknotes. So Now the positions are fully published and the route in and out is part of the standard trek map.

If any of this is not right please let us know and when you visist the area or if you have visited the area please upload a picture or two into the Page Family Grave Site place.
David (DM) & Michelle (MM)
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz - David & Michelle - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 19:22

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 19:22
I have also adjusted the trek note for the Walkers Crossing trek to visit this site as part of the standard route.

Again please if you have information or photos to add to these locations that would be wonderful.

Davd
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Follow Up By: marty c - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 13:42

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 13:42
Great you guys are the only one who suplied GPS co-ordinates are these the ones 26-58886 139-63969 for the page family grave
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Reply By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 21:40

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 21:40
Hi Marty

We visited the site a couple of years ago, with the help of a fellow EO member who gave me a track file. Even with the help of the tack file it was a little hit and miss to find the track. The only marker then on the Birdsville Track was a star dropper and orange marker cone. The track east was very well defined, but at the point wher we had to head north, the track had completely overgrown and was very hard to find, but once we were on the track, it was again a very easy track to follow.

At a point where the GPS showed we were less than 400 metres from it, we had to get out on foot and set out on a GPS go to. Just as well as a couple of places the track had opened up to 18" wide and around 1' deep very large holes in the very overgrown track.

Fiona and i cleaned up the grave and put back the stones in place what were displaced by cattle. I am posting this reply from my iPad, but will put some photos up when I get to my computer in the morning. If in the mean time want to see what the grave now looks like with the new headstone, check out my Blog that I did on the Birdsville Track, which shows a picture of the grave.



Until my images in the morning.


Cheers


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Follow Up By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 08:44

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 08:44
Hi Marty

Here are the images and screen dumps from Ozi. You will note that I had trouble finding the track north, as it was overgrown.
















Cheers


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Follow Up By: ExplorOz - David & Michelle - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 10:20

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 10:20
Stephen,
I tagged your images into the place record and I linked this thread to the new place I created.
Thanks
David
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Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 11:06

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 11:06
Thanks Steve.

That's where I ended up on my second paper trail. We missed it last year also. Next time!! That track sure looks hard to follow. You can just see some of it on Google Earth.

Any chance of sending me a copy of the track file to vk1dx@bigpond.net.au?

Phil
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz - David & Michelle - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 11:20

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 11:20
Phil,
Click on the User Trek linked above two posts up I think it is exactly the route as per Stephens file and you can download it in GPX or Ozi directly plus all the waypoints if you select them and download.
David
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz - David & Michelle - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 11:21

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 11:21
Or here Birdsville Track to Page Family Grave
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Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 11:46

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 11:46
Well there you go. Even an old humble and modest guru like me can learn something.

Thanks David.
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Follow Up By: marty c - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 13:31

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 13:31
There great photos but can you help me witht the GPS co-ordinates thats what i need as i couldn't find the site with hema maps there miles out
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Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 13:40

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 13:40
Sorry Marty. My answer assumed that you knew Oziexplorer.

Try this: 26 35 18.8960 S 139 38 22.9560 E

That is at the top of the thin blue track line in Stephens last map picture. The one with Coochaperoonie Waterhole clearly marked. His last photo mate.

Hows that?

Phil
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Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 14:41

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 14:41
Maybe this will help a bit more. Steve's files loaded onto the Hema Great Desert Tracks - South East map.

Phil

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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 21:43

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 21:43
Hi Marty,
Looks like Michelle has found my .plt file from the member fileswap section. That file was from a trip where we drove to it in 2006 (I acknowledge the help of my friend Gordon K who did the research). I've since been back a couple of times and attempted to walk to it from the Birdsville track but after the first couple of sanddunes we lost interest and came back - its a bit further than you'd think.

The 3 threads 86008, 82436 and 84936 will provide all the info and maps you need. I posted the track over the hema and 250K maps on those threads.

And heres an older photo of the previous grave. Member Mike who followed my .plt file and found the graves in 2011 posted a new photo of the gravesite on one of the other threads.
[Image cannot be loaded]

You also need to be aware that the grave is on private property and it is right and proper to ask permission from the landholders to visit the site. It is on Clifton Hills Station. I'd guess the station people get tired of people wandering around lost on their property trying to find the gravesite. It is not signposted at all.

Also hope you found the newspaper story:
Newspaper article

Cheers
Phil
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Thursday, May 30, 2013 at 05:35

Thursday, May 30, 2013 at 05:35
Here's some photos I took in 2006:



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Reply By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 21:56

Tuesday, May 28, 2013 at 21:56
Thanks marty.

A worthwhile thread. I gained quite a bit more knowledge about the Page's from it. We also have a good friend who is a Page and will ask if they were related. We also missed it one the way home from the Simpson Desert crossing.

Thanks all for your inputs.

Phil
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Reply By: Bruce-n-Bundi - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 10:51

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 10:51
So I take it that the co-ordinates which Steve posted are the correct ones.
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Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 11:04

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 11:04
Seems like it.

If you look at the waypoint data screen that he posted they read as 26 35 18.8960 S 139 38 22.9560 E

Phil
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz - David & Michelle - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 11:24

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 11:24
Yes it does and I have now updated the place refernence to match and confirmed that the track file I added yesterday and Stephens are an exact (well close enough) match. So you can rely on the place system reference for this location and the user route published here
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Follow Up By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 14:44

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 14:44
Hi Bruce

Whenever I mark a waypoint, it is always over the point that i am marking, so yes my GPS Co-Ordinance were directly over the grave. If you zoom in on my second to last image, it is my waypoint details and shows the data in degrees, minutes and seconds, which is always the preferred method with recording mapping data.



Cheers



Stephen
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Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 14:56

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 at 14:56
Hows that for a zoomed version for them. Up a few posts to just below the Tropo 250 map and waypoint data ones.

Phil
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Follow Up By: The Explorer - Friday, May 31, 2013 at 10:00

Friday, May 31, 2013 at 10:00
"degrees, minutes and seconds, which is always the preferred method with recording mapping data"

Hi Stephen...there is no universally "preferred" method to quote coords as far as I know. OziExplorer displays both lat/long and UTM in any event. Decimal degrees are used by many high end mapping programs as the decimal places are needed for accuracy. If you quote coords just to the nearest second (no decimal places) they are not accurate enough for some applications (a second of latitude = ~30m)..you must use decimal places. How accurate you need to be depends obviously on what you are recording - a grave would need pretty good accuracy...a mountain or hill not so.

I almost always use UTM as you can quote to the nearest metre (or less if you want - but not much point if using a gps as they are only accurate to a few metres)...certainly the "preferred" method in the mining/exploration industry.

Cheers
Greg
I sent one final shout after him to stick to the track, to which he replied “All right,” That was the last ever seen of Gibson - E Giles 23 April 1874

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Reply By: Nomadic Navara - Thursday, May 30, 2013 at 12:13

Thursday, May 30, 2013 at 12:13
I think you will find that most of the co-ordinates above are correct. The big problem is identifying which Australian geodetic datum was used to make the survey. If you have a look on the old National Mapping Service maps you will see somewhere on them whether their survey was done in accordance with AGD84 or AGD66. The basis of the surveys for the maps is now GDA94. User supplied co-ords may also be given in the navigator's default setting of WSG84. No one seems to have twigged to this.

My long discarded GPS had options to select operation on WSG84, AGD84 or AGD66. I don't think the modern navigators have this option. Before proceeding to look for these graves do some conversions of the co-ords to each of the systems. You then may see a pattern emerging of a common point amongst the conversions from the data given in the messages above.

Here are some places to look for conversions:-

Geodetic Calculation Methods

http://www.icsm.gov.au/gda/tech.html

Geocentric Datum of Australia (GDA)

PeterD
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