Clutch Murderers!!

Submitted: Thursday, Aug 15, 2013 at 20:42
ThreadID: 103812 Views:2527 Replies:11 FollowUps:18
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Been a lot of talk of clutch failures in the later vehicles and of course the make and model gets howled down, but is it all design fault from the manufacturer?.. or is it just careless no idea on how to use a clutch from the driver,..Drover,?..especially when towing....My son inlaw is capeable of destroying anything with wheels on it, he drops the clutch every time, he lets it slip like buggery to get going in to higher a gear!, and so on . I've been with guys that take off and just whack it in the next gear at lightening speed poor clutch!!, and with weight behind same thing!,the clutch is screaming" No More"...lol Ease the pedal out and let the load take up slowly especially when theres a abundance of hp on tap..Theres heaps of things you can do to help clutch desinergration,..But then again some have failed for no apparent reason it seems.


Cheers Axle.
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Reply By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Aug 15, 2013 at 20:58

Thursday, Aug 15, 2013 at 20:58
Well you can't blame this failure on any manufacturer Axle , but this special dual plate clutch fromExidy , made espically for SuperPatrol failed badly.

Due to a bog hole being deeper than expected water was coming in thru the driver side window so the kids couldn't open the door else in would flood the car so by the time they got out the window and winched the bell housing had cooled and sucked in lot of water however the water had mud and grass in it (Swamp) so if you look carefully you will see grass around the fingers edges.

Normally not a problem but with 400kw , well you Know !





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Follow Up By: Aussi Traveller - Thursday, Aug 15, 2013 at 21:14

Thursday, Aug 15, 2013 at 21:14
So you are telling us that the patrol is producing 400 kws or 536 horse power (KW to HP).

Sorry but that is bull bleep .
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Follow Up By: fisherPete - Thursday, Aug 15, 2013 at 22:12

Thursday, Aug 15, 2013 at 22:12
Their around 200kw standard, why would it be BS. We are talking about the 4.8 petrol not the 3l.
Cheers pete
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Thursday, Aug 15, 2013 at 22:13

Thursday, Aug 15, 2013 at 22:13
That sounds like A LOT DEEPER than expected. They didn't walk it first? or just thrill seeking.
Not a problem when you have lots of money I suppose and can just "Do IT"
You can't blame the clutch.

How would all that fibrous material get in through a very small drain hole?
Doesn't make sense.

Probably the clutch fork boot wasn't in place and it all just poured in.
Water pours in Submarines too if you leave the hatch open.


When in deep water you can stop water getting in the clutch. You just have to work out a way to do it.

400kw? does it have twin dipsticks too?
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 07:51

Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 07:51
Bell housings are far from well sealed...unless you are driving something pretty exotic.

There will always be a fairly large drain slot right at the bottom..20 to 50mm long and 3 to 5mm wide. The clutch fork has to come thru somewhere and while there my be a rubber boot, its not like its IP66 rated and I've never seen a gasget on a bell housing flange.

Bell housings fill with water pretty quickly when immersed, this is why it is wise not to touch the clutch pedal when doing river crossings.

and that is if all the tins, bungs and cover plates have been put back.

And if that water is not particularly clean, it will take whatever crap is there in with it.

As far as the power thing...the petrol motors in our 4wds are pretty mildly tuned.....go an look on some of the rice rocket forums and you will see what they can ring out of these jap motors, particularly if they turbo them.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 08:29

Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 08:29
Hi Guys

400kw at flywheel was the offical figure from 4by fabrications dyno it actually put out 420kw and this is by no means unusal with such a big turbo , in fact our mission was to make the most powerful touring wagon and we nearly failed as the turbo came out of another car so it could get an even bigger turbo and produce 500kw , fortunately the engine (from my original 4800) was put into a tray GU Patrol after the 4.2 diesel was thrown out so technically we could claim the most powerful tourer wagon.


The rubber boot around the clutch fork is where the water comes in
it is really only a splash seal and can not withstand a part vaccum.

However so much power and such a good clutch meant something had to give and it has actually twisted the gearbox input shaft along the spline (never seen that before).

Just thrill seeking Ross - but an expensive lesson - the biggest problem was that the car had a weathershield which the navigator had to tear off (from the inside - not easy) so as to climb out the window , so as to then get at the fully submerged winch.

Bantam - Exidy claim that this is a not uncommon problem and diagnosed the issue over the phone and they were right.
The crap prevent full engagement of the twin plates and the y are more critical in their operating point than a standard type single plate.


Robin Miller

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Reply By: Axle - Thursday, Aug 15, 2013 at 21:09

Thursday, Aug 15, 2013 at 21:09
Jeez Robin!, ..Better take them back in time , and buy them all Beetles, at least they floated...Lol.......That's looks a very strong unit though.



Cheers Axle.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 08:34

Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 08:34
Hi axle

My beetle floated , I know that, and I reckon you may have 1 or 2 floaters .

They are very strong Axle , thats only part of it, and they are rated for over 500kw - just look at the cage to hold it.




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Reply By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Thursday, Aug 15, 2013 at 22:23

Thursday, Aug 15, 2013 at 22:23
Axle, I've had my patrol since new so I know that the clutch is original. It's towed a plenty and been just about everywhere and still going strong! Its just clicked over 355,000 Ks.. I often wonder how a clutch can fail in 40 or 50,000ks. They must be given a hard time or some just done know how to use one with some sympathy! But then, just check out Youtube to see what people expect a 3 tonne vehicle to achieve ! Michael
Patrol 4.2TDi 2003

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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Thursday, Aug 15, 2013 at 22:25

Thursday, Aug 15, 2013 at 22:25
OPPs Typo!!! I meant Just dont know!!
Patrol 4.2TDi 2003

Retired 2016 and now Out and About!

There's time to rest when you're dead,
Get out and do something instead!

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Follow Up By: Axle - Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 09:37

Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 09:37
You Have had a good run with that vehicle Mike!


I quess your looking for the same with the latest Patrol....:))))).
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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 19:16

Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 19:16
Axle! I think I will just hang onto it! It reliable and I own it. A new 4.2 TDi engine would be under $10000, that's still $70000 cheaper than the new Y62 petrol. (There must be a little bit of Scottish blood there somewhere)! LoL! Michael .
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Reply By: fisherPete - Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 07:02

Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 07:02
My mates old NA Gq has just clocked up 600000ks on the orinigal driveline. I use to be forever replacing clutchs as a young bloke, but only one in the last 25 years.
Cheers Pete
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Reply By: The Bantam - Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 08:13

Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 08:13
OH hell I know what ya mean by clutch murderers, I've driven with some people who have terrible clutch habbits.

One bloke, y'd think he didn't have a hand brake, he'd hold the thing on a hill waiting for the lights or at a stop sign using the clutch.

Another would leave his foot permanently on the clutch pedal as if it was some sort of foot rest.

The bloke down the road would come past our place every day and in 200 meters he'd be thru 4 gears and riding the clutch into every one...engine cold and labouring all the way

Then there are those who start of in second gear because they can or are too lazy to shift an extra gear..of course they have to ride the clutch to do it.

Some people just should not be allowed to drive a manual.

By the same token, some vehicles have barely adequate clutches, most of the small japanese vehicles in the 80's had much bigger clutches than the 6 cylinder american derived vehicles like holden and ford of the same period.
It never made sense to me that a 1200cc honda civic had a bigger clutch than a 202 Torana......but it had a bigger crown wheel too.

I have also found that aftermarket clutch plates are better quality and more durable than fitted OEM by any brand....and that is without buying the up market replacement.

Yep I scratch my head and wonder why a 2 or 3 year old vehicle should require a replacement clutch......but why should a vehicle of the same age require a replacement radiator or exhaust system.

cheers
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Follow Up By: tim_c - Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 13:32

Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 13:32
"Some people just should not be allowed to drive a manual."

I disagree - they should be encouraged to buy manual because the more clutches they buy, the easier it will be for me to get one if/when I eventually need to replace mine! :-)
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Reply By: Penchy - Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 08:42

Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 08:42
I'm no expert on clutches, but my understanding is they are either in or they are out. You only slip them to take off at the lights and you dont slip them when the revs are 5000rpm. I burnt a clutch out on my old gixxer learning how to do wheelies, since then I havent burnt any out.
AnswerID: 516481

Reply By: Ross M - Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 09:22

Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 09:22
If you are driving responsibly in the bush and taking care and NOT churning uo tracks you do need a good clutch to transmit the necessary torque to the wheels and often a high degree of torque is required.
No vehicle in the Australian bush needs anywhere near 400kw and although you can get the power out of an engine, having the power is a total waste.

No vehicle crawling through our bushland will ever require very many kw at all, torque yes, high power output NO. All vehicles travelling on the highway or bush use the torque and some power ability, only Police during pursuits require the high power. It is after all a rate of doing work. if you are in the bush then the rate is low.

To develop 400kw it won't be happening at an environment saving rate and only will be developed when the engine is running at far greater speeds than is required for bush work.

Savage and abusing comes to mind. To use the power of 400kw it has to be ripping up tracks, gouging mud holes and making the tracks impassable or other users.

Just having the power doesn't mean much at all and seems to be more a statement of increased manhood size, rather than being in proportion to the need.
Possibly, it is because of vehicles like this,authorities restrict and close access to our Australian bush.
To me it is nothing to crow about and something the users should be ashamed of.

Ross M
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Saturday, Aug 17, 2013 at 09:33

Saturday, Aug 17, 2013 at 09:33
While I am not generally supportive of highly modified 4wds.

Just because someone has a high powered engine It does not necessarily follow that they are ripping up tracks.

A powerful and tractable engine will infact allow the driver to travese certain ground better and with less damage.

Torque may be a good thing, but no amount of torque will compensate for a lack of power.
I think this engine would be found to have plenty of torque....seeing as it screwed the input shaft off the gearbox

Just because an engine is running at high RPM it does not necessarily follow that the wheels are doing likewise.....ask any suzuki owner.

Particularly when towing heavy off road campers or off road caravans, there are many situations where ample power can be used to advantage and responsibly.

What this does do is illustrate that foreign engine swaps.... are not necessarily required to produce usefull power increases in 4wds.

It also illustrates what happens when you take things a little too far.
A smaller turbo, yeilding a 50% ish power increase would probably be entirely practical.
Certainly a better option that trying to stuff a big block in there.

If this bloke is an idiot, that will be obvious when you meet him.....but just because he has a powerful engine, that does not make him one.

BTW...throwng babies out with bat water is both child abuse and environmental vandalism.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Best Off Road - Saturday, Aug 17, 2013 at 20:13

Saturday, Aug 17, 2013 at 20:13
400kw would be ideal to tow a very big van.
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Reply By: MUZBRY- Life member(Vic) - Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 10:23

Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 10:23
Good morning
Where would we be without young people doing things we have not done, making things better than we had, not doing any harm to themselves or anyone else, and enjoying themselves at the same time , all I can say to those young fellas, go for it .

Muzbry
Great place to be Mt Blue Rag 27/12/2012

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Reply By: Jeremy W - Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 16:47

Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 16:47
Clutch murderers ?

I was once in a car pool with a chap who owned a Ford Cortina. He could only do one thing at a time so to change gears :

1. Take foot off accelerator.
2. Press in the clutch and change gear.
3. Let out clutch really fast until the gear box went Ting.
4. Press accelerator.

Strong gear boxes on those Cortinas.

Jerry.
AnswerID: 516527

Follow Up By: Jeremy W - Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 16:52

Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 16:52
Addition:

Of course to go around a corner:

1. Take foot off accelerator

2. Press in clutch

Free wheel round corner

3. Let out clutch and put foot down irrespective of speed or former gear.

... Strong engines on those Cortinas

I drove a Holden.

Jerry.
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Follow Up By: Axle - Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 20:25

Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 20:25
HAHAHA!, ....My mother used to drive like that.
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Follow Up By: Jeremy W - Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 21:00

Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 21:00
Frightening experience for the passenger, eh?

Jerry.
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Follow Up By: SDG - Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 23:13

Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 23:13
Was more fun

1. take foot of accelerator

2. Press in clutch

3. drop back a couple of gears

4. rip hand brake on while turning to go round corner

5 let clutch out, foot on accelerator


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Follow Up By: Jeremy W - Saturday, Aug 17, 2013 at 09:45

Saturday, Aug 17, 2013 at 09:45
I'm so glad my 3 boys have grown up intact!

Yes. The eldest was very adept at changing gear boxes. When he showed me one off an escort it was the only time that I saw broken teeth in the case.

Thank god theyv'e grown up.

Jerry
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Reply By: Dave(NSW) - Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 21:00

Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 21:00
Axle,
most Patrol owners know if you have a stock 4.2 and put 33" tires on it, you nearly have to slip the clutch to take off in first gear going down hill LOL
Cheers Dave
GU RULES!!

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Follow Up By: SDG - Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 23:14

Friday, Aug 16, 2013 at 23:14
Try not doing it with a 2.8. Especially if towing.
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Reply By: ozjohn0 - Saturday, Aug 17, 2013 at 08:48

Saturday, Aug 17, 2013 at 08:48
Clutch????
Oh yeh, I remember them, had one in an old FJ Holden.
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