How important is a suspension upgrade?

The beer alone might have been enough reason for the upgrade...lol

Don't know where the 8 grand for an upgrade came from, Lovell and ARB are about $3300 complied with new compliance plate.

Would that $3300 include the engine & transmission upgrades that Alan's son got too?

A 200 series does not need an engine or trans upgrade to tow 2 ton..... it's like me saying I've spent $35000 so I can take it off road, a bulk standard 200 will go off road no problems!

Probably $30000 was spent on what we wanted, not what was required.

As far as I know that was suspension upgrade and engineer certification only. Who did it I wouldn't have a clue.
The engine probs were completely separate and involved mods to cut the horrendous oil consumption. A new transmission was installed because the damn thing wouldn't move when not used for a week while he was on site.
All good now though......
AlanH.

Don't see what engine and trans problems have to do with suspension mods?

About $3300 for a GVM upgrade.... can see how things get twisted and turns from fiction to fact on the WWW.

BTW I've got blue socks on today.... nothing to do with suspension but I just thought you should know.

Me think you have a vendetta against the 200 series!

LOL

Are you sure your name isn't olgoat? I've quite clearly stated that the engine/trans problems were separate from the suspension upgrade. Certainly no fiction but I suppose in the mind of the one eyed they see anything detrimental to the mighty LC200 as a troll or myth.
AlanH.

No Alan I just find it amusing you just happened to throw it into a topic that was about suspension and suspension only!

OzBadDude asked a very specific question.

I've got no need to protect any brand, if I have to pay for something then there is no brand loyalty..... if they gave it to me thats a different story.

Yes I have a 200 series but I didn't buy it because it's a Toyota, I bought it for what we are using it for and nothing comes close.

There are things I don't like about it and things they could do better, I'm the first to admit it...... most problems with any new vehicle is few and far between but the WWW make people think it affects every one of a given brand and model...... most of these comments come from people who don't own one and at best is second or third hand news.

Thanks for the feedback on OME. I'm considering just having ARB install everything: bull bar, roof racks, air locker, suspension (OME).

Thanks.

Yes, I did go for the KDSS option. It seemed like a no brainer investment both for on road and off road.

I want good approach angles, etc. But it will be my wife's family car for most of the year, except for the month we head out exploring. I feel proud to have achieved snorkel approval. I know she won't want the suspension making her look like a total redneck around town! :)

As the other folks have suggested, there are lots of mods available, depends on how deep your pockets are! A small lift won't make SWMBO look like a redneck - but you do need to watch out for car park height limits! Make sure that you know the exact height before venturing in - lots of tears otherwise. Most of our stuff is from ARB and I reckon that they make the car look pretty smart.

The other thing that is missing from this lot is you will probably need to invest in some good offroad AT (preferably light truck) tyres to do the place you mention...but that's a whole new argument!

rednecks don't drive 200s, they drive commodores.

LOL you're right about that Penchy!

Chris_K, do you feel like some AT tyres are more "offroad" than others?

Yep sure do - I'd be inclined to only use "L/T" (light truck) tyres as the side wall is much stronger. There are too many A/T tyres to mention, and as soon as you do - people will recommend something else! I'd go with a well known brand - we have Bridgestone Duellers - they seem robust, quiet and haven't let me down (yet). The key seems to be to rotate the regularly...but others I am sure are just as good (Eg Coopers, BF Goodrich etc).

Yokohama also have "A/T" and from memory the 200's come with Dunlop "A/T" - but these are "A/T" in name only.

Cheers

Chris

Thanks, I will visit lcool.

We will also be towing an off-road camper trailer.

About one month each year we will be heading out. For example, next year we want to do the Kimberley and Kakadu.

So....not just little jaunts into the countryside, but also not crawling over ridiculous rock walls.

What does a GVM upgrade do beyond upgrading the suspension? Does that have to be done by Toyota before I receive the car or can I do it at any time?

I’ve been going through the same exercise over the past month.

You can either have it done prior to the delivery of the vehicle to comply with Federal requirements, and this will cost substantially more than having it done afterwards, which will comply with the State licensing laws.

The difference is that if it is done under federal requirements the vehicle can have its registration transferred between States and the increase in GVM remains. Mining companies are typically the only people who would go this way as vehicles may be registered in another State sometime in the future.

No point going the Federal way for a private vehicle. The cost difference is around $5,500 versus $3,500.

Ocoolone makes a very valid point about assessing what weight you will be carrying and ensure that you have sufficient GVM.

In term of suspension upgrade / GVM upgrades, work out what you are putting on it, what it does to the basic kerb weight of the vehicle, assess whether you have sufficient GVM left, and then deal with any suspension modification – in essence, what do you need to do to ensure the vehicle rides correctly with the increase in weight.

You also want to ensure you are not compromising any new car warranty as you are paying for it in the price of the vehicle...

For it is worth, an engineering certificate will be required for a GVM upgrade, but under a 50mm lift (without GVM changes) it isn't required. In my opinion, do yourself a favour and spend the money to get a engineer to certify it.

The cost might be around $700/800 but you are spending a fortune on a new car, the last thing you want to be doing is arguing with an insurance company that the vehicle didn't comply, if you have the misfortune to have an accident.

Besides, you want it to be right...

As Landy has said..... it pays to get it done pre rego and a new compliance plate is fitted, on ours it states Lovell Suspension is the vehicle manufacturer; not Toyota.

Hi Landy,

Who are you having do the work in Sydney? I'm Sydney based too.

Ultimate Suspension, as they came recommended and have done similar work recently on the 79 Series Dual Cab which has a similar configuration to my completed vehicle. The cost I indicated is for the 79 Series, but I don't expect it will be too much different.

Mind you, they won’t be the only company that can do this and you may find someone equally capable.

I'm sure you have it figured out, but my approach has been to work out what will be the approximate all-up weight of the vehicle, (kerb weight plus accessories) and this will give an indication as to whether a GVM upgrade might be needed, and importantly, to ensure that you can configure the vehicle the way you want and with the load you expect to be carrying.

As highlighted earlier, the load carrying capacity of vehicles is often overlooked when adding the “bits and pieces”. And that is before you load the family in...

Once happy with that, the process is simply to ensure the GVM is adequate, and suspension provides a safe and comfortable ride for the vehicle. If it doesn’t than it may need to be modified...

I’d also discuss your intentions with Toyota to see what impact, if any, it might have on your new car warranty, and the insurer to make sure it is happy with suspension modifications and possible GVM upgrade. Whilst acceptable to most, some insurers may not be willing to accept GVM changes, regardless of it being certified correctly by an engineer.

Some parting advice, before adding all the “bells and whistles” maybe take it on a couple of trips to see what you really need, bearing in mind it all adds to cost, through the initial purchase, and then insurance cover. Items like winches are great, if you need one, but a weight penalty and another reason for someone to have their hand in your wallet.

And I’m not suggesting you don’t need these items, but review carefully and realistically anything you intend to add...

In fact I think starting with a view of what I won’t add is a better way to approach modifications and accessories, and then make a “real” case for why you need them – guaranteed approach that will save you money in the long-run...

Good luck with the new vehicle and travels...

Thanks for that. Some wisdom there. The bull bar is definitely an essential. And the roof racks. I will probably wait on the air lockers and see how I go.

I have gotten the impression that a winch was one of 'the basics' once you go beyond easy 4WD tracks?

No problem, hopefully some food for thought. Ultimately you need to decide what works best for you. If you read the popular four-wheel drive magazines they would have you believe a 2inch lift, diff locks, bulbar, and a winch is needed, and that is just to get you down your driveway.

The reality is quite different.

On winches specifically, many people navigate their way all around the country without the need for a winch. Others have them because they deliberately go looking for tracks that means one will be essential kit.

For someone heading off on a big trip once a year your biggest risk with a winch is that it will suffer from under use.

I’d say if you did a poll of how many times a winch is used in anger by the average (and I say the average – not extreme four wheel driver) you would be surprised at how infrequent it would be.

And the weight of a 9,000lb Warn Winch – 35kg (5% of the excess load capacity of the 200 Series)

But taking another read over your original post and questions, you need to think through the accessories, and the likelihood of needing a GVM upgrade.

Vehicle GVM: 3,350kg

Kerb weight (includes fuel): 2,635kg

Load capacity: 715kg

2 Adults + 4 kids (estimate): 300kg

Camper trailer (Ball weight): 100kg

Bullbar: 70kg

Roof rack: 45kg

Winch: 35kg

Fridge & contents: 40kg

Other gear: 50kg

Total: 3,275kg

Not too far of the GVM already, give or take the gear you put on and the gear you take with you...

It all adds up.

To give you an idea ours comes in at 3810kg with camping gear but no occupants.

Our winch (Warn M12000) adds 68kg

Steel rims with Cooper ST Maxx tyres adds 100kg

Draw system adds 95kg

Aux battery adds 80kg

Kaymar bar adds 48kg

Kaymar Spare wheel carriers adds 35kg

Water tank adds 60kg

Extra fuel capacity including tank adds 160kg

Thanks so much to both of you. These last two posts where you list weights is really helpful.

I now feel equipped to go and talk to suspension/GVM people.

And forgot to say we have all the other gear you need like bull bar, roof rack, fridge......

One other thing it depends on what model 200 series you are getting, the one "The Landy" has mentioned is the base model GX..... if going to the GXL, VX or Sahara you can add about another 150-250kg.

They all have the same GVM but the vehicle curb weight is different meaning in the GX you can carry more than the Sahara.

Ours is the VX.

Me again...... is it "Kerb" or "Curb"? LOL

Yes, I'm getting the GXL, so upgrade it is!

I'm a bit more paranoid about adding weight to the vehicle.
I haven't gone with a GVM upgrade - just the 2 of us in the vehicle. Don't need it.

I've added:
+70kg for ARB bullbar
+ 10kg for battery upgrade (2xN70 instead of 2XN50 that come standard)
+ 50kg for storage system (custom made by me)
+ 14kg for my custom 1.8m roofrack that slots between the Altitude rails
+ 25kg for LT tyres to replace the GrandTreks
+ 13kgs for awning
+ probably another 10kgs for gadgets and wiring.
Water and extra fuel is carried in plastic jerries - so little dead weight
3rd row seats removed - subtract about 60kgs from memory.
And if I remove the 2nd row for a desert trip, and replace it with a jerry can rack, I subtract another 80kgs.

I would weigh the Landcruiser when set up for travelling, you might be surprised.

The seats are not as heavy as you think, one person can lift them.

Yep I guessed too much on the seats - I should have checked my notebook before posting:
3rd row seats are 40.4 kg the pair
2nd row seats are 69.5kgs the pair (Altitude imitation leather without airbags)
Still - that's 110kgs to deduct.

Your VX is heavy - well over 720kgs of extras incl bullbar. Comparing the accessory lists, I'm 500kgs less already.

I like to keep the vehicle light, and the Tvan takes the extra fuel and water for most of our trips. If I were to load mine up for the Canning (no Tvan) then I expect to be a couple of hundred kgs over which is something I can live with.

I imagine that you have upgraded your suspension Phil, even if not registering an increased GVM.

So although you might be over official GVM on the Canning, you actually have the suspension to handle it.

Right?

Never mind, I see above that you have indeed increased your suspension.

By the way, where/how do you weigh the vehicle when you have it loaded?

This is what the loading chart will look like for the 79 Series Dual Cab.

The variable is the Alloy Canopy being made, but numbers should be close.

This would be a typical load.

OzBadDude
"I imagine that you have upgraded your suspension Phil, even if not registering an increased GVM."
Yes - same as most 4wd owners who go 4wding - upgraded the springs to increase clearance so I don't trash the underside of the vehicle.

"So although you might be over official GVM on the Canning, you actually have the suspension to handle it."
Yes - If you weighed every vehicle on the Canning I expect you'd find 90+% are over GVM. Nobody gets fined or whatever. We lose 200kgs during the trip! The only instance I know where someone got stung for being over GVM was a large corporation who's damaged Nissan patrol traytop was 4.4T.

This GVM upgrade paranoia is very recent. Ever since the Govt started doing it on their vehicles to stay squeaky clean. 10 years ago, GVM upgrades were rare. But you are not making your vehicle any stronger or any safer. Its still the same vehicle - just with stronger springs. The big limit on how much weight you can carry is the manufacturer's specs for axle weight. There's no way you can get a vehicle certified for more than the combined axle load limits.

Hi Phil

A valid point, although the issue remains that many vehicles are in excess of the manufacturers' GVM without the necessary suspension compensation. So safety becomes a significant issue, and of course in a serious accident you could be found culpable if driving a vehicle in excess of the GVM.

And you insurer will simply walk away...

The problem will only get worse as the loading capacity of many four-wheel drives is reducing...and seemingly, we are trying to put more in them.

"And you insurer will simply walk away..."

Landy, you say this with a lot of conviction - you must know of many instances where this has occurred!

Hi Phil

I am an avid reader of documents, especially insurance PDS for insurance cover I have.

You will find most, and I’d be surprised if it wasn’t all, have the following general exclusion.

“We will not pay any loss, damage, or liability arising directly or indirectly from any event connected with:

Overloaded vehicle or unsecured load.

Your vehicle being used to carry a greater number of passengers or convey or tow a load in excess of that for which your vehicle was constructed, which is over the legal limits or not secured according to law. We will pay if you prove the loss, damage or liability was not caused or contributed to by such greater number of passengers or load, or by the load being unsecured”

I guess what this means is that if you find yourself making a claim and an overloaded vehicle was involved the insurance company’s starting point is likely to be a refusal of the claim – it will then be up to you to fund the legal costs to defend that the overloaded vehicle was not a contributing factor.

And good luck with that…for example how will you defend a vehicle roll-over with an overloaded vehicle?

Experience – absolutely none, and I will never put myself in a position where I need to defend it…

Thanks for that feedback. Is Lovell GVM different from getting an Old Man Emu suspension upgrade? Just a different company or do they do different things?

ARB upgrade increases GVM to 3580kgs
The Lovells increases GVM to 3800kgs
The 200series GVM was increased by Toyota to 3350kgs last year.

IMO the ARB 3580 upgrade is not worth having - only 230kgs extra.

Ouch! I bet that threw your neck around a bit.

Thanks for your feedback. I am now definitely going for an upgrade.

Just what I've been thinking this morning Michael!

With the kids in the back seat, the storage space is very small and no need for a drawer system's weight.

Some stuff will go on the roof, like spare tyres.

I don't have the Kaymar rear bar or tyre holders that add a lot of weight.

My extra water tank is already installed in the camper trailer and I've been thinking about what else can go in there: fridge, food, camping gear. I also have jerry can holders on the camper trailer.

I figure I can get the bulbar, winch, roof racks, and a bigger 2nd fuel tank and still be under GVM, but get a basic suspension upgrade.

I read what Phil G said about keeping his shockies, but somewhere I also read that if you get a lift, you need different shockies, or you put extra stress on things. Is that right?

The original shocks will cater for a 2" lift, remember that with the extra weight you may only get half of that 2", so the Toyota shocks will handle an inch extra in height easily. You may be close to GVM but it will save you a bundle if you only get what you need. Put some nice quality shocks under it at 60,000ks, Enjoy your holiday! regards Michael