Whats going on doesn't anyone like the new cars ?

I'm caught in a bit of the same situation Robin.
I had a number of 100 series wagons when I sold my business, so kept the best and lowest klm one for myself.
It's a 2002 GXV TD auto with just 130,000 on the clock.
I have an advantage of having a very good friend who works for Toyota who assures me that he can provide me with a 200 for an exceptional price, but I still can't justify the change over cost for the benefits achieved.
I'm sure that will change if and when they introduce the CVT into the cruiser range.

Despite the months of talk, which would have only required a few minutes, it seems there is a communication problem. All the 3 months of points you put forward have been ignored. Perhaps your persuasive powers aren't what they used to be.

They now have vehicles which suit their purpose for half what a new, quickly to depreciate, harder to repair Toyota would have cost them. They possibly don't need the 3 month discussion to decide on the relative value.

Why did they take no notice?

I think your friends have a fairly typical attitude to a lot of practical people - they don't like the way car design is going - and in particular, 4WD design.
There's a loss of focus in what a 4WD is for, and what is important to end-users, in the latest designs.

The manufacturers are insistent that a 4WD now has to be full of complex electronics, a veritable sound and video room on wheels with stunning entertainment features, full of devices that totally eliminate any driver skills, so any idiot with a huge wad of cash can rock up and become an instant "four-wheel-driver".

Systems that take away braking, steering, and slide control from the driver, thus eliminating any need to develop those driver control skills. Systems that turn your lights and wipers on and off, thus taking any selectivity of lighting or windscreen-wiping away from the driver. Systems that govern how close you can get to another vehicle and which apply the brakes if you do get too close.

In some forums, there is much angst and teeth gnashing over inadvertent "lane-changing flashing" of indicators when it's accidentally activated. The indicators are set up on numerous European cars, so that they go into "lane-changing-flashing-mode" with a series of flashes, and they think you're lane-changing when you're not - all because you accidentally bumped the "lane-changing" mode when you merely intended to flash your headlights.

The Japs have now confirmed they have full intention of making driverless vehicles. That is, you will climb into your new 'Cruiser, press buttons for your destination and sit back and "enjoy the ride" as the vehicle does everything you used to do.

You won't be able to do anything, except instruct the vehicle to stop, or go to another destination. Even at that, there will no doubt, be refusals to accept your directions, because the computer controls would deem your instruction "currently unsafe", and will only carry out your instructions after 236 sensors and 46 microprocessors, deemed it safe to do so. [;-)

I'm concerned about the total "dumbing down" of skills in our nations. We now have mechanics who have no idea on what's happening or what has gone wrong under the bonnet. They rely on a $250,000 diagnostic computer to tell them what part to replace.

We will end up with drivers who will not even have basic road skills, because all transport will be automatically regulated and computer-controlled. All traffic controls will be linked into every car, and if you have an "old car", it will not be allowed on many roads.

About that time, some youngsters will marvel over an "ancient HJ47" that they found, and wonder how to go about driving it!! LOL

I am going through the process of deciding which car to get for the next ten years, and everything out there is a compromise.
200 series: IFS, heavy V8 with a reputation for losing oil
76 series: same V8, different track widths front to back
Prado: IFS
61 series Patrol: questions over 3.0 L donk reliability
Discovery 4: ridiculous wheel and tyre combo
Defender: 2.2 L donk too small

Some of the best outback touring cars are well and truly behind us. So a low mileage version of a ten year old design might well be the most attractive option.

In that list I would include the 80 series with solid front axle and 4.2 L donk, Discovery 2 with centre diff lock, Patrol 4.2 L diesel, TD5 Defender.

Bob

Both our two sons and ourselves went through the same practice. And then all got 4.2 TDs, with one son getting a nice latter model patrol (I think GQ), the next got an excellent 2003 100 series with HF radio, lockers etc, and we found a good 2005 100 series with only a CB and no towbar. I like the no tow bar bit. A good chance that it hadn't been overworked towing. We won't tow again so didn't need one.

Too much electronics on the 200 and new patrol for us and we prefer diesels.

We don't need to drag anyone off. One son has a fast Mazda sedan, the other son has a twin turbo Mazda RX8 and we had a greatly upgraded Kingswood. Oh And my wife purchased a Mini Cooper 1300 set up by Jerry Lindstrom for racing and still street legal. We got over it years ago.

Maybe this says something about the proven 100 series as it does for the latter model Patrols of the same vintage. We still like to drive the cars not have them drive for us. I wonder if that is true. They both have heaps of electronics but less than sit in the back, get the remote and drive from there, "park yourself" stuff around today. That is an exaggeration I know. Sure you can turn it off but why pat $100+ for it and not want it.

Phil

I'm in the market for another vehicle. Somewhere from the early 70's. Torana, Holden panelvan, Charger, etc. Don't fancy my luck though. To expensive for what they are.

Still using the Toyota as a yardstick for your Nissan I see :-)
Robin some cynics would be assuming you actually meant "Whats going on doesn't anyone like the new Toyotas", given that all your examples etc are Toyotas?

I went thru the same dilemma, and let my 100TD go recently and moved to a 200TD. The old 100 was a magnificent vehicle, with absolute reliability over 7 years and 200000ks (300K all up) and provided similar economy to the 200 though with less power.
Undoubtedly the 1HD-FTE is the best all round diesel ever made for power economy and ultimate reliability.

Being the owner of a 2012 and 2004 model car (and having owned heaps of older cars, including 1970's Falcons, Australian-made Sigmas and XF Fords) I would imagine that the concern with cars of the current era is the plethora of background systems that can fail and/or cause the car to lock up or be completely useless if the said system gets feedback it does not like from a random sensor somewhere.

I thought my '04 Falcon was pretty computer-ry with it's CAN-BUS system, electronic throttle etc, but our 2012 Territory is like the starship Enterprise by comparison. There are so many "modules" there to control so many different things and if one goes or gets uppity, it can bring the whole car to a halt and you have to call for a tilt tray.

Not that I have had problems with it, hopefully I won't, but I know of quite a few folks who have and especially for the purposes of touring in remote areas in Australia, I can see the appeal of an older car - because it will have less stuff to potentially fail and leave you stranded and if you're cluey with cars, what things that DO go wrong, you might have half a chance of fixing yourself.

When you look back, you can see where you maybe could have done things different. I sold my pristine 62 series petrol/gas for 5k.. Went out and brought a 2000 model 100 series 4.5 petrol 27k.. Had this for 5 years, then traded it in, got 17k for it, on a 150 d4d prado.. 62k.. Cheaper to run? We will see! If I could take time back, I would have preferred to bite the bullet, and spend the dollars on the 62 series, would have gone the chev v8 diesel... End of story! Cheers Odog

it would be beyond funny if their reasons for not buying the 200 was percieved lack of reliability

when the Hi tech 1hz was brought out people said it wouldnt last because if you snapped a timing belt its stuffed with its hi tech overhead cam,
then the FTE wouldnt make it because of its electronically controlled fuel pump which cost 12k to replace wouldnt hack it out bush.

then the IFS on the 100 wouldnt hack it out bush

now people are saying the 200 series has too many electronics burns oil and will never hack it out bush (their only rapidly approaching 10 years of proven reliability)

is any one else no seeing the pattern?

Well here is a kitted out 200 series with 312,500Km on it, quite cheap too.
No, its not mine and no I probably wouldn't buy it even for that price.

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/geraldton-6530/cars-vans-utes/landcruiser-v8-twin-turbo-diesel-6-speed-auto-/1030929585

In another thread we were discussing the pros and cons of "driver assist" features that come with many new vehicles. In that particular instance the provision and use of cruise control. I was going on about all the wonderful gadgets that seem fairly common place. One I missed out was what I think comes under the term Bluetooth Connectivity. This quite handy feature which apparently gets it's name from the antics of some long forgotten Norse king enables the use of mobile phones to be used hands free and probably a whole bunch of other lovely novelties.
Anyhow the wife told me that this feature had ceased to work as it had been up to now. Keep in mind that this car is only about 2 months old. So out with that weighty tome known as the Owners Manual. Went through all the setup carefully to no avail. Went through the Iphone settings...yep all enabled. Uh Oh, maybe our first bit of electronic trouble. Off to the dealer to get it checked out. The nice service guy went through all the procedure to get the phone and car to become re-aquainted. No dice. He then turned our phone off and turned it back on and re-set all that it needed to re-establish communication with our Mr Bluetooth. Bingo...the happy relationship was restored.
I asked him what had gone wrong, as you do.
His reply was along the lines of "It looks like your phone forgot what it had to do. By re-telling the instructions it looks like it's all good again."
Yeah, thanks mate job well done.
I wonder what next will have a seniors moment. Hope it's me or the phone and not the car itself.

Cheers
Pop

I have no idea why, but people who don't own a 200 are aware of lots of problems, yet owners love them and have generally never heard of these problems or know that they were fixed 5 - Yes 5, years ago. Why do these imagined issues keep coming up from non owners?

Anyone who is considering a 200 should go to the LCOOL website and check facts of the real issues and experiences, not consult 2nd or 3rd person hear say on forums such as this. There are some issues like every car I guess, but these are never mentioned on these forums because these are stuck on the old oil use issue fixed in June 2009.

There are about 2000 LC200 owners on Lcool and about 40 posts in the 200 section a day and more 'problems' appear on this forum from people who have never set foot in one than on that forum which is dedicated to the vehicle.

I actually feel sorry for GU 3.0 and Landrover owners when I read these "fiction section" threads.

There are lots of reasons why someone would get a 100 over a 200 including
-They can't afford a 200 ( but would never admit it)
-They would never buy a new or near new vehicle
-They use Exploroz as a source of facts for new vehicle purchases.

On car manufacturers’…

Henry Ford summed it up perfectly when he (supposedly) said “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses”.

Cheers!

Nothing wrong with the 2004 - 100 series. Don't like the 200 series at all. We bought ours 2nd hand in 2009. It tows our 25' van wonderfully, it is a dream to drive anywhere in this great country and is so reliable when we are off the beaten track camping in remote areas in our tent. Why the hell would you buy anything else? Ours has just clocked up 200,000km and we reckon it's only just run in. :) ps; Our 100 series is a white one :)

Robin from what I've noticed of late, around Perth anyway, is that there is now a proliferation of 4wd utes. On a recent trip out to Wilbinga I'd say that 80% of the newer vehicles were utes. Maybe the versitility of the ute and now they come as 5 seaters are more to peoples needs.

While I agree with all of the above comments I think it's the shear cost of a new 4wd wagon no matter the make, especially if you set it up for long distance and off-road touring including all the usual mods. Upwards of $120k - $150k for a complete setup from scratch is insane.

cheers

Dunc

It could also be a finance thing Robin.

There would be a lot of retired folk getting out there now who may not be in the position to go and just buy a $100K car, and like us, without a regular income that could make the repayments. And like us, who still need a town car, maybe wouldn't have a trade in either. So they head to the most economical one and that means the "previous" models. And in 10 years or so we will have someone come along and ask why we don't like the ??? (new) model but go and buy the 200 series.

So the 2nd hand market was our only choice. And even then it may be well under $50K. Especially considering all the initial safety and reliability etc mods needed up front and then the running and maintenance costs.

Phil

some here have hit the nail on the head
I recently bought another vehicle

- now Id love a twin turbo diesel 200. And I can afford one

actually I could easily pay well over 1/2 in cash

so what did I buy???

a 2001 troopy poptop with almost 400k for under 15k

why do that if I can afford a 100k vehicle?

personally I cant justify that amount of money on a non asset

everyone will do thier own sums on what they want , what they can afford, what they can justify

----and somewhere in the midst of all that they will end up with a vehicle----

I am one of these people who have recently chosen to purchase the older model cruiser in my case a HDJ100 wagon.

We never wanted to spend the amount required for a 200 series new or second hand. Also looked long and hard at the various new dual cabs however in the end came to the conclusion it was far more economic to purchase a good used Landcruiser wagon already set up with bullbar towbar etc than a bare ute.

The big bonus is we now have a very comfortable vehicle with heaps of room to tour in with camping trailer in tow as opposed to the new dual cabs (in our price bracket) which ride like absolute buckets of $*%t and are really tinny as well.

Hey Robin. Just a follow up on yr question, I think the chev diesel isn't as sensitive to the bad fuel thing like the new vehicles. I'm happy with the prado, but just sometimes think about all the money that has past through the hands in changing vehicles. Could have spent half the amount, and not been to concered about electronics, computers or bad fuel had I just done a conversion on the old sixty. Cheers Odog

G'day Robin,

A nice robust debate on the merits of a new expensive wagon versus some old steel. What I find interesting is that plenty of people like simplicity. I think that there is still enough remoteness in our travels to get spooked by things that are a little beyond a bush fix or a vehicle that may seem unreliable. I think that modern cars are more reliable but much more complex however if you have a relatively new car that has been serviced then there is no reason to suspect it won't complete that trip.

Maybe I should just retire the tool box?

Thanks for the topic!

Gday Robin,
Nice thread as usual!!

Historically, as a couple of others have touched on...

In 1986 the 12H-T was released - it was an overpriced 4wd and not worth the money -My 1986 model Sahara TD cost $53k plus orc when new. Huge amount of money back then.

In 1990 it was replaced by the 1HDT motor in the 80series - it was still overpriced - gone up to $76k for a Sahara TD, and to cap it off the big end bearings failed. So the 12H-T became the best TD engine ever built and nobody wanted a new 1HDT.

In 1995, the 1HDT was upgraded to the 24 valve 1HD-FT. - an extra 10Kw!! Very few people bought the Sahara at $114K - that was a huge amount of money! That vehicle is now very desirable - aftre almost 20 years it gets $30k+ second hand today. The big end bearing issues were solved and the 1HD-FT was reliable.

In 2000, the long awaited HDJ100 was released - but Toyota got it wrong - only IFS versions available - bugger!!! Lost popularity - especially after the IFS failed spectacularly on the Canning and in the Simpson Desert - broken Right lower wishbones. But people now said the 80series 1995-98 1HD-FT was the best Landcruiser ever made.

In 2007, the V8 1VD-FTV was released - heaps more power and torque than anything before it and better fuel consumption - and they fixed the IFS by using struts. But the motor was a new low-friction motor - it used oil and Toyota owners didn't know how to top up a litre between services - never had to do that before! So it's instantly a fizzer - and still is to many of the oldfolks on Exploroz. So now the 1HD-FTE is the best motor ever put into a Landcruiser....so best get a 100seriesTD !!

So that's where your friends are at.

But heck - the V8 came out 6 years ago. Toyota fixed the oil probs by changing the ring design amongst other things in 2008/2009. So I'm guessing when the 300series gets released in 4 years time, we'll be saying the 4.5L TTD V8 was the best motor...

I was happy to upgrade from a 1HD-FTE to the V8 because it's brand new and much simpler and cheaper motor to service. The wheel bearings, valve clearances, and timing belts are all non-service items - so buying HDJ100 is false value as the servicing costs can be huge. I'd rather have a timing chain and hydraulic tappets than a timing belt and a crazy bridge arrangement for tappets anyday. Parts are cheaper too with oil and fuel filters half the price of the items on a 100series because they are cartridge and not spin-on. Get a new 200series and you'll pay $210 a service - get a 100series and fall over with the service cost.

And when you buy a new vehicle, you can get huge discounts. $10k off is usual with the 200series - I paid $87k on the road for a vehicle that retailed at $97k at the time. Second hand versions were similar money, so buying new was a no brainer.

When I were in the market for a new 4wd, the pain started.....That what the hell do I buy feeling ?? Budget wasn't an issue..but that didn't mean a free for all labor style of spending like a drunken sailor splurge...
I have been around 4wd`s for 25 years and can say I do know a bit about them...
But there is also the value for money part too.
I am not loyal to any one brand as there are many quality , value for money 4wd`s in the market. I test drove many....actually became sick and tired of the bullshit salespeople trying to brainwash a sale.....or the ignorant pigs that didn't realise I actually DID have cash for an expensive 4wd and ignored me when I walked into the dealer. Honestly I can not for the world understand why anyone would pay $50K + for a used vehicle with 100000 + kms on it. Mind you I cant understand why anyone would pay $50k + for a car fullstop....They certainly are NOT worth it.....not even close. But we had decided we wanted a new car, something nice......It was a relatively easy decision to go new over used and flogged. same price, better warranty, new car, no one lese had owned it, no one else had soiled it or flogged it.
Doesn't matter which way one looks at it, a used 4wd with 100000 + kms on it is kms you will never get back. The thought of spending $50k + on some one elses discard with a possible hidden issue just didn't appeal to me at all. I settled for new and I absolutely love my car. It will do the same as any LC or Patrol or prado....but its new for less money.....