Whats going on doesn't anyone like the new cars ?

Submitted: Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 08:27
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I spent months talking to a friend about why a 200 series would be his ideal car
and then he goes and gets a 2004 100 TD series and he brings it round last week to show off and within an hour another friend rolls up.
He recently left his Prado at the cape and guess what, he also had another 2004 100 series TD to show off.

They brought them independantly and both were silver and both had same bullbar etc etc.

Intrigued by their out of left field descisions I tried to understand why as these things command a high price (more than 50K) in showroom condition so money wasn't a real issue and the bottom line semed to be that they were suspicous enough of 200 series issues to go for low km pristine but 8 years old cars instead ?

Gee we even took a few people play driving on the weekend and Muzbry came along with his 100 series and then my brother shows up - at least he didn't have a 100 series but has gone and stuffed a 100 series engine in his 80 series.

The walls seem to be closing in but at least there is an upside to not buying 200 series , I can still drag everybody else off.

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Reply By: Brian 01 - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 09:14

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 09:14
I'm caught in a bit of the same situation Robin.
I had a number of 100 series wagons when I sold my business, so kept the best and lowest klm one for myself.
It's a 2002 GXV TD auto with just 130,000 on the clock.
I have an advantage of having a very good friend who works for Toyota who assures me that he can provide me with a 200 for an exceptional price, but I still can't justify the change over cost for the benefits achieved.
I'm sure that will change if and when they introduce the CVT into the cruiser range.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 09:44

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 09:44
Hi Brian

One of the cars only had 45000km on it and in such good condition it was on showroom floor with the new cars , so perhaps like you they thought it was to good to pass up.

On the CVT I have driven a few new cars lately with CVT and they drive a little different , they seem to need good sound proofing and I 'm not sure if I like the lack of gear feeling , but they do seem to be quite smooth.
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Reply By: Ross M - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 09:17

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 09:17
Despite the months of talk, which would have only required a few minutes, it seems there is a communication problem. All the 3 months of points you put forward have been ignored. Perhaps your persuasive powers aren't what they used to be.

They now have vehicles which suit their purpose for half what a new, quickly to depreciate, harder to repair Toyota would have cost them. They possibly don't need the 3 month discussion to decide on the relative value.

Why did they take no notice?
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 09:36

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 09:36
Hi Ross

They probably saw my Petrol Patrols fuel bill - but no I probably should have added that they both knew 200 series that had serious issues , one I think was a water in fuel problem so couldn't really blame the car.

I think 200 series is great , but reputation , even if not deserved seems to be important to some of us I guess.
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Follow Up By: bluefella - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 17:00

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 17:00
Well said Ross
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Reply By: Ron N - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 12:18

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 12:18
I think your friends have a fairly typical attitude to a lot of practical people - they don't like the way car design is going - and in particular, 4WD design.
There's a loss of focus in what a 4WD is for, and what is important to end-users, in the latest designs.

The manufacturers are insistent that a 4WD now has to be full of complex electronics, a veritable sound and video room on wheels with stunning entertainment features, full of devices that totally eliminate any driver skills, so any idiot with a huge wad of cash can rock up and become an instant "four-wheel-driver".

Systems that take away braking, steering, and slide control from the driver, thus eliminating any need to develop those driver control skills. Systems that turn your lights and wipers on and off, thus taking any selectivity of lighting or windscreen-wiping away from the driver. Systems that govern how close you can get to another vehicle and which apply the brakes if you do get too close.

In some forums, there is much angst and teeth gnashing over inadvertent "lane-changing flashing" of indicators when it's accidentally activated. The indicators are set up on numerous European cars, so that they go into "lane-changing-flashing-mode" with a series of flashes, and they think you're lane-changing when you're not - all because you accidentally bumped the "lane-changing" mode when you merely intended to flash your headlights.

The Japs have now confirmed they have full intention of making driverless vehicles. That is, you will climb into your new 'Cruiser, press buttons for your destination and sit back and "enjoy the ride" as the vehicle does everything you used to do.

You won't be able to do anything, except instruct the vehicle to stop, or go to another destination. Even at that, there will no doubt, be refusals to accept your directions, because the computer controls would deem your instruction "currently unsafe", and will only carry out your instructions after 236 sensors and 46 microprocessors, deemed it safe to do so. [;-)

I'm concerned about the total "dumbing down" of skills in our nations. We now have mechanics who have no idea on what's happening or what has gone wrong under the bonnet. They rely on a $250,000 diagnostic computer to tell them what part to replace.

We will end up with drivers who will not even have basic road skills, because all transport will be automatically regulated and computer-controlled. All traffic controls will be linked into every car, and if you have an "old car", it will not be allowed on many roads.

About that time, some youngsters will marvel over an "ancient HJ47" that they found, and wonder how to go about driving it!! LOL
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Follow Up By: Member - Scott M (NSW) - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 17:27

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 17:27
Ron, I can show them what a 'real' 4wd looks like ....

Seriously though, two things would possibly put someone off a new 200 series, and Ross nailed one of them further up ....

Depreciation - solely the biggest cost in owning a new vehicle

The second IMHO is customization, the newer vehicles with the new sensors and crumple/collapsible frames aren't as easy to customise/modify as an old 80/100 series or the earlier Nissans.

If you want to by a mobile loungeroom off the showroom floor - great, but apart from a bull-bar and roof-racks, there's not a lot you can do to them without upsetting the electronic management guff...
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 17:30

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 17:30
I tend to agree with you there Ron, as I was reading your reply I remembered a bit of an item on our news radio this morning - it was about the increasing need for pictures to be used instead of the written word in explaining some workplace rules - apparently the ability to read/write is so poor in some sectors that pictures need to be used more.
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Follow Up By: SDG - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 18:12

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 18:12
Anything like those pictures in Cairns on the back of the toilet doors? The ones showing how to use the toilet.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 20:03

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 20:03
Robin, we've had pictures instead of writing on gauges of tractors and machinery since the late 1960's. It was supposed to be all part of the "global marketing" of machines, where people in 3rd world countries couldn't read English and would struggle to determine what a particular gauge was telling them.

Me, I struggle to determine what a squiggly illuminated symbol is telling me! - and I hate pulling out an owners manual, only to find that it contains 100 pages of instructions on how to read the squiggly illuminated symbols!! [:-0

I was sitting around the other night waiting for a truckie, in the stepdaughters Subaru Outback, and wanted to find out more about the SatNav and information screen. I was stunned to find a manual about 200 pages long, just for the on-screen operations!!
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Reply By: Echucan Bob - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 13:02

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 13:02
I am going through the process of deciding which car to get for the next ten years, and everything out there is a compromise.
200 series: IFS, heavy V8 with a reputation for losing oil
76 series: same V8, different track widths front to back
Prado: IFS
61 series Patrol: questions over 3.0 L donk reliability
Discovery 4: ridiculous wheel and tyre combo
Defender: 2.2 L donk too small

Some of the best outback touring cars are well and truly behind us. So a low mileage version of a ten year old design might well be the most attractive option.

In that list I would include the 80 series with solid front axle and 4.2 L donk, Discovery 2 with centre diff lock, Patrol 4.2 L diesel, TD5 Defender.

Bob
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 17:44

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 17:44
Well Bob both of these friends said that this will be there last serious 4wd if they last another expected 10+ years.

But I don't know - wouldn't be my descision - I guess I agonized over buying my new car 2 years ago and bought the very last 4800 you probably know I also brought one of the 1st in 2002 so while I had a new car it was still a 10 year old well proven design.

But part of my reasoning was that every part of my previous one was getting old. Its not just the obvious but every hose, bearing, connector etc etc steering parts, gearbox wear and I felt that I want all those unseen things to be new to ensure it would last the distance.

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Follow Up By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 09:50

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 09:50
I'm with you Robin, as you now I like my 4800 patrol and bought it knowing that it has quite a thirst! Now while I've played around with the thought of a conversion to a diesel motor (the notion has not been totally trashed yet) my 2002 model has served me well and touch wood will continue to do so for a while yet.

My conversion of the wagon was driven (excuse the pun) by my happiness for the car and a lack of a suitable reasonable replacement. Only time will tell if I have made the best choice but I am happy that I have found no good reason so far to remove my 11 year old car from the driveway.

Kind regards
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Reply By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 13:05

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 13:05
Both our two sons and ourselves went through the same practice. And then all got 4.2 TDs, with one son getting a nice latter model patrol (I think GQ), the next got an excellent 2003 100 series with HF radio, lockers etc, and we found a good 2005 100 series with only a CB and no towbar. I like the no tow bar bit. A good chance that it hadn't been overworked towing. We won't tow again so didn't need one.

Too much electronics on the 200 and new patrol for us and we prefer diesels.

We don't need to drag anyone off. One son has a fast Mazda sedan, the other son has a twin turbo Mazda RX8 and we had a greatly upgraded Kingswood. Oh And my wife purchased a Mini Cooper 1300 set up by Jerry Lindstrom for racing and still street legal. We got over it years ago.

Maybe this says something about the proven 100 series as it does for the latter model Patrols of the same vintage. We still like to drive the cars not have them drive for us. I wonder if that is true. They both have heaps of electronics but less than sit in the back, get the remote and drive from there, "park yourself" stuff around today. That is an exaggeration I know. Sure you can turn it off but why pat $100+ for it and not want it.

Phil
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 21:39

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 21:39
I can also see the day when cars will drive us Phil and our last 100 years of car culture will be a curiosity of history - sort of like that I learned all about the American Indians and their horse culture from black/White Tv , then one day I read somewhere how they never had horses till Europeans came on the scene.
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Reply By: SDG - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 15:20

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 15:20
I'm in the market for another vehicle. Somewhere from the early 70's. Torana, Holden panelvan, Charger, etc. Don't fancy my luck though. To expensive for what they are.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 15:38

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 15:38
SDG - Would you like a magnificent '76 HX LE Monaro? BIL has his for sale and he'll let it go for a steal of a price, around $45K!
It's a really nice example, and it looks cheap, compared to these two! [:-)

http://www.carsales.com.au/car/holden/monaro/le-badge/

Only 580 LE's were built and it's believed less than about 50 or 60 have survived.
They only came in one colour, and they had every extra, including 5L motor, A/C, auto, power steering, and 8-track stereo!

I knew a bloke who bought one in the late 80's and trashed it within a couple of years!
I'll wager he's regretting that now!
I really regret wearing out my Absinth Yellow '75 Sandman ute that I bought new! Best ute I ever owned!
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Follow Up By: SDG - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 16:00

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 16:00
My first car on my p's was a 1974 LHTorana, sold it for about $600, and the second was a HQ Panelvan. Traded it in for a Rodeo Ute, for peanuts as well.

Wish I still had either of them. Both are getting to be like hens teeth.

Just wondering if we are being nostalgic, or not. Wanting to recapture our youth? Or do we just like the old cars over the new?
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Reply By: fisho64 - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 16:27

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 16:27
Still using the Toyota as a yardstick for your Nissan I see :-)
Robin some cynics would be assuming you actually meant "Whats going on doesn't anyone like the new Toyotas", given that all your examples etc are Toyotas?

I went thru the same dilemma, and let my 100TD go recently and moved to a 200TD. The old 100 was a magnificent vehicle, with absolute reliability over 7 years and 200000ks (300K all up) and provided similar economy to the 200 though with less power.
Undoubtedly the 1HD-FTE is the best all round diesel ever made for power economy and ultimate reliability.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 17:52

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 17:52
Oh Fisho I wouldn't say that , but you sort of have to wonder how come a minority still buy the 3lt GU Nissan patrol - I mean 1998 I think it was when they first came out and here we are 15 years on and the despite decreasing engine issues maybe the basic simplicity and strength of that design attracts some of us - by the time my current car is ready to be turned over I might have lost the need for speed and get one too but I suspect that I might follow your lead and get a 200.

Be interesting after a couple of years to see how you look back on your change.
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Reply By: Road Warrior - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 16:30

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 16:30
Being the owner of a 2012 and 2004 model car (and having owned heaps of older cars, including 1970's Falcons, Australian-made Sigmas and XF Fords) I would imagine that the concern with cars of the current era is the plethora of background systems that can fail and/or cause the car to lock up or be completely useless if the said system gets feedback it does not like from a random sensor somewhere.

I thought my '04 Falcon was pretty computer-ry with it's CAN-BUS system, electronic throttle etc, but our 2012 Territory is like the starship Enterprise by comparison. There are so many "modules" there to control so many different things and if one goes or gets uppity, it can bring the whole car to a halt and you have to call for a tilt tray.

Not that I have had problems with it, hopefully I won't, but I know of quite a few folks who have and especially for the purposes of touring in remote areas in Australia, I can see the appeal of an older car - because it will have less stuff to potentially fail and leave you stranded and if you're cluey with cars, what things that DO go wrong, you might have half a chance of fixing yourself.
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Follow Up By: SDG - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 18:20

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 18:20
Sounds a bit like a problem my brother had a few years back. He is a diesel mechanic by trade, turned into a truck driver. One day the truck broke down in the middle of somewhere. If it was an older truck, he says, he could have rigged it to get him to the next town for a better fix. As it was some electronic/computer thing that stopped the truck, he had to wait half a day on the side of the road for a service person to come with parts.
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 18:32

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 18:32
pffft

its the same old codswallop yes older cars were more simple but they were far far far more likely to leave you stranded

we had a 1982 comodore - jus the sort of vehicle people reckon they can fix with fencing wire and any bush mechanic can get going

tripe

it left my dad stranded twice and youd have to be a pretty good mechanic to bush fix the cardboard cogs that make up the timing and distributor cog

it was a tow job both times stranded out in the country

no such problems with their later model vehicles
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 19:29

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 19:29
All GM and GMH engines (Holden, Chev, Buick, Oldsmobile, and some later Pontiac engines) used fibre timing gears from 1933-on. They were a constant source of trouble, particularly if constant hard acceleration and high speeds were regularly indulged in - but they were the only real weak point of all these good engines.
An alloy replacement timing gear soon fixed the problem.

The nylon distributor gear on the 6 cyl Holden engines of the early 1980's was an idea to try and achieve a cheaper engine build cost - and it was a total failure. Swapping to an earlier steel distributor gear soon fixed that problem, too.

I've been stranded about 4 times in 45 yrs, with stripped timing gears, and once with a stripped nylon distributor gear - out of a total of more than 50 six-cylinder Holdens I've owned.

I've been stranded a lot more times with electronic failures in a number of so-called "more reliable" late-model vehicles - particularly ones with high kms.

Try some damage to a wiring harness on a current vehicle and see how far you get.
All it takes is a stick, a stone, or other road debris to flick up and whack the right point.
One night I hit a feral cat at 110kmh, and that was it, it took out a heap of wiring when it went under.
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Follow Up By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 10:00

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 10:00
I'm reminded reading this of Keith Adams fixing his gearbox in the middle of nowhere in the 50"s or 60's by cutting the required part out of a can. I think he was running a Buick or Oldsmobile. I suppose we all would like to be able to do that if we get stuck.

Kind regards
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 21:49

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 21:49
Beatit - My old man, who lived an worked on Doolgunna Station between 1930 and 1934 - and who then went water-boring with a camel team until 1937 - and who worked over the entire Murchison region from Carnarvon to the Collier Range and down as far as Kalannie - told me many stories of the old fellas tricks to patch up their busted transport.

One time, he was travelling with a fencing team in a late 1920's Buick, when the Buick spun a rod bearing. They pulled the sump off, fabricated a new bearing out of leather (windmill leathers were always carried), but they then didn't have enough clean oil to top up the sump.

So, they added several pounds of butter to the small amount of salvaged and cleaned sump oil, to get the Buick going - and the repair lasted them until they reached the next station, many dozens of miles further on! Try doing that with a 200 series 'Cruiser!
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Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Thursday, Nov 07, 2013 at 12:35

Thursday, Nov 07, 2013 at 12:35
Similar story. Down the NSW south coast in 1965 surfing at South Daras and parked right in the bush and way off the tracks to a spot behind the beach. In getting out late Sunday arvo, we blew the top out of a piston in the FB. We took the head of, found the hole and simply took the spark plug out and drove back to Sydney on 5 cylinders. Not too smoothly but that was a long way. Nothing open so we just continued. Now piston, bearings, rings and away she went for years.

Phil
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Reply By: Member - Odog - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 17:28

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 17:28
When you look back, you can see where you maybe could have done things different. I sold my pristine 62 series petrol/gas for 5k.. Went out and brought a 2000 model 100 series 4.5 petrol 27k.. Had this for 5 years, then traded it in, got 17k for it, on a 150 d4d prado.. 62k.. Cheaper to run? We will see! If I could take time back, I would have preferred to bite the bullet, and spend the dollars on the 62 series, would have gone the chev v8 diesel... End of story! Cheers Odog
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 17:35

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 17:35
Did your Prado have any particular vices Odog , or do you just like the sound and performance of a chev V8 diesel.
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Reply By: get outmore - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 18:25

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 18:25
it would be beyond funny if their reasons for not buying the 200 was percieved lack of reliability

when the Hi tech 1hz was brought out people said it wouldnt last because if you snapped a timing belt its stuffed with its hi tech overhead cam,
then the FTE wouldnt make it because of its electronically controlled fuel pump which cost 12k to replace wouldnt hack it out bush.

then the IFS on the 100 wouldnt hack it out bush

now people are saying the 200 series has too many electronics burns oil and will never hack it out bush (their only rapidly approaching 10 years of proven reliability)

is any one else no seeing the pattern?
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 19:03

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 19:03
get outmore, I can show you a Mazda E2200 diesel that snapped a timing belt! The results aren't pretty! Even the block is toast, the valves hit the pistons, one piston shattered, it jammed in the bore, and the conrod went through the block!

Thus, there might be some reason why the latest Subaru FB25 engines now use a DOUBLE, STEEL timing CHAIN?? - when the previous EJ25 engines used a timing belt? Subaru note that this change reduces owning and operating costs.

http://drive2.subaru.com/Win11/itsWhatMakes.htm
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 19:27

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 19:27
im sure its not but theres a heck of alot of 1hz running around living extremely long lives despite having a timing belt

certainly in my 9 years of owning a 1hz I havnt snapped one
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 19:36

Monday, Nov 04, 2013 at 19:36
You're right - if you're certain of the kms, and strict on your maintenance and replace the belt as per the specified kms, there's a low chance of them failing.
The problems start with badly maintained vehicles, people who run the belt way past its recommended change point, and then "pass it on to some sucker" - and oil leaks.
All rotating shafts that carry timing belts have oil seals that leak, and oil is bad news for timing belts - even neoprene ones will suffer from oil on them.
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Reply By: MarkLH69 - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 00:23

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 00:23
Well here is a kitted out 200 series with 312,500Km on it, quite cheap too.
No, its not mine and no I probably wouldn't buy it even for that price.

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/geraldton-6530/cars-vans-utes/landcruiser-v8-twin-turbo-diesel-6-speed-auto-/1030929585
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Follow Up By: Member - Toyocrusa (NSW) - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 06:23

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 06:23
Try this link
200 Series
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 08:08

Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 08:08
H'mm

I wonder if that couldn't be the cruiser my new neighbour left in Savory creek.
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Reply By: pop2jocem - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 02:30

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 02:30
In another thread we were discussing the pros and cons of "driver assist" features that come with many new vehicles. In that particular instance the provision and use of cruise control. I was going on about all the wonderful gadgets that seem fairly common place. One I missed out was what I think comes under the term Bluetooth Connectivity. This quite handy feature which apparently gets it's name from the antics of some long forgotten Norse king enables the use of mobile phones to be used hands free and probably a whole bunch of other lovely novelties.
Anyhow the wife told me that this feature had ceased to work as it had been up to now. Keep in mind that this car is only about 2 months old. So out with that weighty tome known as the Owners Manual. Went through all the setup carefully to no avail. Went through the Iphone settings...yep all enabled. Uh Oh, maybe our first bit of electronic trouble. Off to the dealer to get it checked out. The nice service guy went through all the procedure to get the phone and car to become re-aquainted. No dice. He then turned our phone off and turned it back on and re-set all that it needed to re-establish communication with our Mr Bluetooth. Bingo...the happy relationship was restored.
I asked him what had gone wrong, as you do.
His reply was along the lines of "It looks like your phone forgot what it had to do. By re-telling the instructions it looks like it's all good again."
Yeah, thanks mate job well done.
I wonder what next will have a seniors moment. Hope it's me or the phone and not the car itself.

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 21:34

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 21:34
If anything can have a seniors moment Pop , I reckon Bluetooth anything is it.

I have seen so many bad implemenations .

I'm supposed to understand that stuff - but I'm sure my own car radio has a BlueTooth mind of its own as I have never been able to figure out its random connection behaviour .
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Reply By: Member - Boobook - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 08:27

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 08:27
I have no idea why, but people who don't own a 200 are aware of lots of problems, yet owners love them and have generally never heard of these problems or know that they were fixed 5 - Yes 5, years ago. Why do these imagined issues keep coming up from non owners?

Anyone who is considering a 200 should go to the LCOOL website and check facts of the real issues and experiences, not consult 2nd or 3rd person hear say on forums such as this. There are some issues like every car I guess, but these are never mentioned on these forums because these are stuck on the old oil use issue fixed in June 2009.

There are about 2000 LC200 owners on Lcool and about 40 posts in the 200 section a day and more 'problems' appear on this forum from people who have never set foot in one than on that forum which is dedicated to the vehicle.

I actually feel sorry for GU 3.0 and Landrover owners when I read these "fiction section" threads.

There are lots of reasons why someone would get a 100 over a 200 including
-They can't afford a 200 ( but would never admit it)
-They would never buy a new or near new vehicle
-They use Exploroz as a source of facts for new vehicle purchases.
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Follow Up By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 10:21

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 10:21
Hi Boobook,

You are quite right off course and people should look at the most appropriate information to get informed. I wanted to share a small experience, I have a friend with a 200 series Sahara I think. His sister wanted to buy a new car (probably about 12 months ago) and he was encouraging her to look at a 200 as it fitted her requirements.

I talk to her a lot and asked her if her brother had mentioned all these "problems" as I would feel bad if I hadn't and after all I have read about them here. She does her own searches via google etc and asked her brother about oil loss and driveshaft play, now she is no mechanic! His reply was that he only has to top up the oil occasionally and he climbs under the car to grease the tailshaft only every so often. She was flabbergasted that her brother found it OK and had not mentioned this in his appraisal.

He is a Toyota man through and through and I have known him for nearly 25 years and has never owned anything else so I guess we can all have our biases. Now whilst I drive a Nissan I did attempt to own a Landcruiser once but the salesman must have thought I looked to scruffy and refused a test drive.

Kind regards
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 11:13

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 11:13
If her brother took the car to a dealer and mentioned it, they would almost certainly rectify both issues at no cost. These were common problems about 4 - 5 years ago but not now. People who had these issues including me were often amazed how Toyota fixed them at no cost and with little or no push back. Since about mid 2009 these components have been changed in production and whenever an owner complains - according to LCOOL owners and internal Toyota tech documents posted on the forum.

As a 'sister of a friend' story so it goes with that credibility.

Get the sister of the friend to research from LCOOL and she will get the facts of the matter.

I am not saying they are perfect but the 2 examples you quote are items fixed many years ago in current and production vehicles, and not representative of what a purchaser could expect. Just another non owner story to go into the books I'm afraid. That's exactly what I was talking about.

Also did you notice that the owner in your story loved the vehicle, and even recommended it to his sister. Does that tell you something?

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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 13:16

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 13:16
Boobook; if I was you I would not be taking your 200 series anywhere outside the metro area, why is it so many experts who has never had anything to do with a 200 series seems to know more problems and have seem more broken down then us who own them.

When the 80 series can out they all said it was the end of the real 4wd........ when the 100 series can out they all said it was the end of the real 4wd........ when the 200 series can out they all said it was the end of the real 4wd........ and when the 300 series comes out they will be saying the same.

Jumping in to a 100 series after the 200 you soon start the realise how outdated, uncomfortable and bad the 100 series was..... the 100 was good and still is but it is no match for the 200.

Off road and I mean real off road the 200 series is unbelievable and makes most stuff look easy.

I think the biggest problem what people have is they really want one and they know how good they are but are out of reach.... so they have to justify the reason for not getting one by spreading rumours and dribbling junk.

People forget an 1996 80 series GXL Turbo Diesel was $73,000 when new...... for 20-30 grand more you could of had a house.
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Follow Up By: Skulldug - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 19:40

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 19:40
Boobook,

I can only speak from first hand experience with several 200 series at work. They are over priced, need expensive mods for serious outback travel and are prone to very expensive problems.

I won't buy one myself but if you are into it - good luck.

Skull
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 07:59

Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 07:59
Skulldug, didn't you recently post about how you spent a lot of money on the suspension on your 150 Prado to make it 4wd ready? It doesn't make sense that you would then go on to say that a 200 is expensive to mod for outback travel (verses a 150 or just about any vehicle) especially given your previous posts

However you do prove my original point. Non owners complain more than owners. Especially those who wish to justify a less expensive purchase decision I guess.

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Follow Up By: Skulldug - Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 09:51

Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 09:51
Boobook,

I have posted similar comments about the Prado 150. They require suspension and ground clearance upgrades to be considered a capable vehicle for the outback.

I guess what I am not making clear is that I don't accept your comments about it only being non-owners who are critical. I decided not to buy a 200 series as my personal vehicle because of the experience I have had at work with several of them since they were first released.

You will also find posts from me being critical of Mr Toyota, particularly in relation to having to fight to get anything done under warranty. Their first response it to say "its normal" then "well report it."

I don't think there is such a thing as the perfect vehicle but people make their decision about what to buy on balance. On balance, I think the 200 is too expensive to buy, costs too much to run and is prone to problems that make me nervous about owning one myself.

Cheers

Skull
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 10:00

Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 10:00
Good. You are happy with what you bought and not happy with the more expensive option. That is normal and it's normal to justify one's purchase decisions on the basis of price or perceived problems.

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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 10:09

Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 10:09
Oops wrong button, sorry.

But it still doesn't get over the fact that the overwhelming majority of about 2000 owners on LCOOL, and here, love it, but you as a non owner think there are major issues. That was my point. How can that be?

a)Non owner ( possibly never been in one) says lots of issues and prone to problems and expensive to own.
b)1980 of 2000 approximate owners on LCOOL love it, and many say it's the best vehicle they have ever owned. And many have had it up to 6 years.

On a survey on LCOOL of owners, 97% approx said they would buy one again.

It says something to me, and it's not that non owners know more than owners.





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Follow Up By: Skulldug - Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 11:35

Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 11:35
Boobook,

Here is what I don't understand. You don't count driving half a dozen 200's extensively in remote areas and paying for them through my budget as well as talking with the other staff that use them because it was at work. Yet, you do count your own experience with one vehicle just because you paid for it yourself.

There will always be posts about 200's costing too much and there will always be people who agree. Naturally, they will be non-owners because they think they cost too much.

But anyway, keep believing.

Cheers





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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 11:43

Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 11:43
Yes but you don't OWN one.

Do you drive them all exclusively - NO
Do you personally pay the bills - NO
Do you know how they are driven all the time NO
Do you own a 200 - NO

I have heard lots of other "we have them at work" stories that turned out to be ill informed.

You can have you opinion but you can't have an informed owner's opinion. You are simply confirming the "Owners are happy, non owners know lots of strange issues" phenomenon .

Gawd




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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 19:07

Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 19:07
Skulldug..... I would be asking those who drive them for your company why they are destroying them and what are they destroying?

A bit of drive ed may save some money.

And what is a "few"?

Why are they in need expensive mods for serious outback travel and are prone to very expensive problems?

Sorry a 200 series is very capable and make a very good serious outback traveling vehicle and there are many not modified in the outback..... and what are the very expensive problems?

If you call suspension upgrade and more fuel capacity a problem..... tell me one vehicle that is capable off the showroom floor..... and I don't want some smartarse answer like "A Humvee".

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Follow Up By: Skulldug - Thursday, Nov 07, 2013 at 10:48

Thursday, Nov 07, 2013 at 10:48
olcoolone,

My followup says

"I don't think there is such a thing as the perfect vehicle but people make their decision about what to buy on balance. On balance, I think the 200 is too expensive to buy, costs too much to run and is prone to problems that make me nervous about owning one myself."

Perhaps you missed it.

Do you really want me to go into the list? I suspect if I did you would be less than complimentary about the individuals that had experienced the problems.

I assume you own one and are a member of lcool. Have a look at what fellow owners are saying. Its not pretty.

Skull
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Reply By: The Landy - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 10:31

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 10:31
On car manufacturers’…

Henry Ford summed it up perfectly when he (supposedly) said “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses”.

Cheers!
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 21:23

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 21:23
I think the guys said that answer Landy - the girls wanted a more enviromentally friendly exhaust system on their horses.
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Reply By: Curlynan - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 10:35

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 10:35
Nothing wrong with the 2004 - 100 series. Don't like the 200 series at all. We bought ours 2nd hand in 2009. It tows our 25' van wonderfully, it is a dream to drive anywhere in this great country and is so reliable when we are off the beaten track camping in remote areas in our tent. Why the hell would you buy anything else? Ours has just clocked up 200,000km and we reckon it's only just run in. :) ps; Our 100 series is a white one :)
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 21:20

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 21:20
I think you would get on well with my mates Curly.
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Reply By: Member - Duncan W (WA) - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 10:40

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 10:40
Robin from what I've noticed of late, around Perth anyway, is that there is now a proliferation of 4wd utes. On a recent trip out to Wilbinga I'd say that 80% of the newer vehicles were utes. Maybe the versitility of the ute and now they come as 5 seaters are more to peoples needs.

While I agree with all of the above comments I think it's the shear cost of a new 4wd wagon no matter the make, especially if you set it up for long distance and off-road touring including all the usual mods. Upwards of $120k - $150k for a complete setup from scratch is insane.

cheers

Dunc

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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 17:33

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 17:33
I have also noted that big swing Duncan - and with some of these utes starting at $30K its pretty tempting.

My other friend who just bought one traded his 4.2 TD Patrol on his up specked BT 50 isn't so happy though as it just broke its rear leaf springs - his Patrol never did that.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 18:57

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 18:57
Robin, I've got a mate with a 2010 3.0L diesel Patrol traytop that he bought new, and the rear springs crapped out on it within 30,000kms.

Nissan paid for a new set, saying that they'd had some problems with them.

Methinks they've been sourcing springs from China and getting springs that missed out on the QC - if there ever was any in the first place.
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Reply By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 10:58

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 10:58
It could also be a finance thing Robin.

There would be a lot of retired folk getting out there now who may not be in the position to go and just buy a $100K car, and like us, without a regular income that could make the repayments. And like us, who still need a town car, maybe wouldn't have a trade in either. So they head to the most economical one and that means the "previous" models. And in 10 years or so we will have someone come along and ask why we don't like the ??? (new) model but go and buy the 200 series.

So the 2nd hand market was our only choice. And even then it may be well under $50K. Especially considering all the initial safety and reliability etc mods needed up front and then the running and maintenance costs.

Phil
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 17:27

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 17:27
For some I'm sure thats the case Phil but it wasn't here - there was a 200 series actually cheaper than their pristine 100 series.

It was just nagging doubts that seemed to be the prime motivater.

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Reply By: get outmore - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 11:24

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 11:24
some here have hit the nail on the head
I recently bought another vehicle

- now Id love a twin turbo diesel 200. And I can afford one

actually I could easily pay well over 1/2 in cash

so what did I buy???

a 2001 troopy poptop with almost 400k for under 15k

why do that if I can afford a 100k vehicle?

personally I cant justify that amount of money on a non asset

everyone will do thier own sums on what they want , what they can afford, what they can justify

----and somewhere in the midst of all that they will end up with a vehicle----
AnswerID: 520884

Follow Up By: Gronk - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 15:49

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 15:49
I couldn't afford a Prado....so bought a Challenger..

But if I could afford it......it wouldn't be a Nissan, Rover etc....it would be a 200 series.......why?....because as an all round 4wd, it ticks more boxes than anything else out there....

This debate about electronics etc is old hat these days...stick with your 20 yr old 4wd if it worries you because every 4wd has it now ( whether you like it or not )

The Patrol 4.8 that Robin has is an awesome 4wd....offroad.....but as an allround 4wd, I think the 200 is a better bet...no question..
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Reply By: Peter T9 - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 16:37

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 16:37
I am one of these people who have recently chosen to purchase the older model cruiser in my case a HDJ100 wagon.

We never wanted to spend the amount required for a 200 series new or second hand. Also looked long and hard at the various new dual cabs however in the end came to the conclusion it was far more economic to purchase a good used Landcruiser wagon already set up with bullbar towbar etc than a bare ute.

The big bonus is we now have a very comfortable vehicle with heaps of room to tour in with camping trailer in tow as opposed to the new dual cabs (in our price bracket) which ride like absolute buckets of $*%t and are really tinny as well.


AnswerID: 520900

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 17:20

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 17:20
Actually Peter another friend of mine has the BT50 , nice car nice & quiet , lovely auto transmisson as well , unfortunately it just broke its rear springs on the capes corrugations - it was loaded but not over.
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Reply By: Member - Odog - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 19:08

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 19:08
Hey Robin. Just a follow up on yr question, I think the chev diesel isn't as sensitive to the bad fuel thing like the new vehicles. I'm happy with the prado, but just sometimes think about all the money that has past through the hands in changing vehicles. Could have spent half the amount, and not been to concered about electronics, computers or bad fuel had I just done a conversion on the old sixty. Cheers Odog
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Reply By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 20:53

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 20:53
G'day Robin,

A nice robust debate on the merits of a new expensive wagon versus some old steel. What I find interesting is that plenty of people like simplicity. I think that there is still enough remoteness in our travels to get spooked by things that are a little beyond a bush fix or a vehicle that may seem unreliable. I think that modern cars are more reliable but much more complex however if you have a relatively new car that has been serviced then there is no reason to suspect it won't complete that trip.

Maybe I should just retire the tool box?

Thanks for the topic!
AnswerID: 520908

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 21:16

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 21:16
Never retire the Toolbox Beatit.

While we are a society that is moving towards subing out everything ,so much so that many of us will
never do more to get a car going that dialing the RACV , the group that make up Exploroz are a step behind that trend I believe. (Or is it a hope ?)

If one tours around the blacktop and good tracks mostly then I guess a lot of this is academic and if one car is
half the reliability of another then it just means you dial the RACV every year instead of every 2 years.

For me though when I turn off and go trackless there is going to be no easy rescue and the apprehension rises
and I sort of mentally start and tick off all the backups I have made - has something been forgotten etc etc.

Comfort comes not from believing the mechanic that says its all ok , but from knowing it is ok because I did it.

So again, Never retire the Toolbox Beatit.
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 10:07

Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 10:07
reliability often gos well beyond just the vehicle.

while vehicle issues can happen such as stuffed shockies or snapped springs often its all the other things that go wrong

i heard and believe the most common issues out on the tracks are tyres and batteries.

Ive heard of people having issues with immobalisers. This is always my worry. In WA all vehicles sold have to have one and all my vehicles have been older with aftermarket ones - anything goes wrong there out bush my bush mechanics would start to be stretched
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 10:25

Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 10:25
It is all about risk management. Know and understand the risks, work out what is an acceptable level of risk, and deal with the stuff that isn't.

It might be vehicle, weather, personal health...

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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 21:45

Tuesday, Nov 05, 2013 at 21:45
Gday Robin,
Nice thread as usual!!

Historically, as a couple of others have touched on...

In 1986 the 12H-T was released - it was an overpriced 4wd and not worth the money -My 1986 model Sahara TD cost $53k plus orc when new. Huge amount of money back then.

In 1990 it was replaced by the 1HDT motor in the 80series - it was still overpriced - gone up to $76k for a Sahara TD, and to cap it off the big end bearings failed. So the 12H-T became the best TD engine ever built and nobody wanted a new 1HDT.

In 1995, the 1HDT was upgraded to the 24 valve 1HD-FT. - an extra 10Kw!! Very few people bought the Sahara at $114K - that was a huge amount of money! That vehicle is now very desirable - aftre almost 20 years it gets $30k+ second hand today. The big end bearing issues were solved and the 1HD-FT was reliable.

In 2000, the long awaited HDJ100 was released - but Toyota got it wrong - only IFS versions available - bugger!!! Lost popularity - especially after the IFS failed spectacularly on the Canning and in the Simpson Desert - broken Right lower wishbones. But people now said the 80series 1995-98 1HD-FT was the best Landcruiser ever made.

In 2007, the V8 1VD-FTV was released - heaps more power and torque than anything before it and better fuel consumption - and they fixed the IFS by using struts. But the motor was a new low-friction motor - it used oil and Toyota owners didn't know how to top up a litre between services - never had to do that before! So it's instantly a fizzer - and still is to many of the oldfolks on Exploroz. So now the 1HD-FTE is the best motor ever put into a Landcruiser....so best get a 100seriesTD !!

So that's where your friends are at.

But heck - the V8 came out 6 years ago. Toyota fixed the oil probs by changing the ring design amongst other things in 2008/2009. So I'm guessing when the 300series gets released in 4 years time, we'll be saying the 4.5L TTD V8 was the best motor...

I was happy to upgrade from a 1HD-FTE to the V8 because it's brand new and much simpler and cheaper motor to service. The wheel bearings, valve clearances, and timing belts are all non-service items - so buying HDJ100 is false value as the servicing costs can be huge. I'd rather have a timing chain and hydraulic tappets than a timing belt and a crazy bridge arrangement for tappets anyday. Parts are cheaper too with oil and fuel filters half the price of the items on a 100series because they are cartridge and not spin-on. Get a new 200series and you'll pay $210 a service - get a 100series and fall over with the service cost.

And when you buy a new vehicle, you can get huge discounts. $10k off is usual with the 200series - I paid $87k on the road for a vehicle that retailed at $97k at the time. Second hand versions were similar money, so buying new was a no brainer.
AnswerID: 520911

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 08:04

Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 08:04
Well said..... people hate two things, 1) Change. 2) Things they don't understand.

Plus we have such a short memory and when you take into account wages and house prices back in the 80's and 90's the Land Cruiser was very very expensive. We had one customer who bought a 60 series new and still has it, he said when he bought it it Ford's flagship; the LTD 10,000 cheaper....... And the 60 series didn't have much in terms of gadgets or luxury.

When you spend a long time in the Landcruisers competitors vehicles you soon realise the Landcruiser is not the expensive after all.

When we bought ours back in 2011, there was a $12,000-$14,000 difference in a new 200 or a 5 year old 80,000k 100 series with no warranty and less features.

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Reply By: coonick - Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 17:42

Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 17:42
When I were in the market for a new 4wd, the pain started.....That what the hell do I buy feeling ?? Budget wasn't an issue..but that didn't mean a free for all labor style of spending like a drunken sailor splurge...
I have been around 4wd`s for 25 years and can say I do know a bit about them...
But there is also the value for money part too.
I am not loyal to any one brand as there are many quality , value for money 4wd`s in the market. I test drove many....actually became sick and tired of the bullshit salespeople trying to brainwash a sale.....or the ignorant pigs that didn't realise I actually DID have cash for an expensive 4wd and ignored me when I walked into the dealer. Honestly I can not for the world understand why anyone would pay $50K + for a used vehicle with 100000 + kms on it. Mind you I cant understand why anyone would pay $50k + for a car fullstop....They certainly are NOT worth it.....not even close. But we had decided we wanted a new car, something nice......It was a relatively easy decision to go new over used and flogged. same price, better warranty, new car, no one lese had owned it, no one else had soiled it or flogged it.
Doesn't matter which way one looks at it, a used 4wd with 100000 + kms on it is kms you will never get back. The thought of spending $50k + on some one elses discard with a possible hidden issue just didn't appeal to me at all. I settled for new and I absolutely love my car. It will do the same as any LC or Patrol or prado....but its new for less money.....
AnswerID: 520966

Follow Up By: Peter T9 - Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 20:19

Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 20:19
So what breed is it?
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 20:21

Wednesday, Nov 06, 2013 at 20:21
Perhaps thats the crunch line Coonick when you say -It will do the same as any LC or Patrol or prado....

This depends on ones values what maybe important to you may not be whats important to others.

I certainly could'nt find any car other than what I brought that could match both it and what it coud be.

Three days ago I was stalking two deer in my "very quiet when it idles" vehicle and even while sitting in my car with engine going I heard it - the ticky tick tick off a diesel 50m away scaring off the wildlife.
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