Carrying Genny inside Vehicle

Submitted: Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 16:51
ThreadID: 105949 Views:6626 Replies:14 FollowUps:37
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Hi I am just about to buy a Honda EU20I genny for the caravan I have been advised not to put a generator box on the rear bumber bar due to weight and balance issues, therfore my only other option is to carry it in the rear of out Landcruiser, if I put it in a plastic storage box and seal it with tape will this stop the petrol fumes.

Cheers, Tony
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Reply By: Member - Oldbaz. NSW. - Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 17:08

Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 17:08
G'day Tony, I carry mine in the rear of the Jack in its cover & have no issues with
fumes. The fuel cap has a closable vent & if used correctly seems not to give off fumes. I agree that it is too heavy to hang on rear bars & also increases chance of theft. I throw a towel over mine so that it is not so obvious what it is.
cheers...oldbaz.
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Follow Up By: Member - john y - Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 17:41

Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 17:41
I agree Old Baz ,We carry ours in the back of our cruiser with the vent closed and never a whiff in 3 years john y
I will go anywhere as long as it's forward

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Follow Up By: Member - Oldbaz. NSW. - Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 17:47

Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 17:47
Good on ya john, according to the post below we know nuttin', but
you & I will still be happy doin' what we do, wont we ?...:)))).
cheers....oldbaz
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Follow Up By: John and Regina M - Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 18:56

Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 18:56
This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Personal Attacks Rule .

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Follow Up By: Member - Oldbaz. NSW. - Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 19:41

Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 19:41
You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but the fact that you felt
it necessary to attack me personally over my opinion does nothing for your credibility. If you cant disagree without such references I am
happy to concede that you are indeed the superior being when it comes to crap.....cheers......oldbaz.
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Follow Up By: Member - Joe n Mel n kids (FNQ - Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 23:19

Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 23:19
we have done the same, it is fine to carry it inside, my guess is you wont be doing any "extreme" 4x4ing so it wont leak and I would not go to extreme's in sealing it up, better to just throw a light cover over it and most of all just tie it down, DONT leave it loose, that of course makes it impossible to completely wrap it but that is not wise anyway, it could leak heaps of fuel and you wont know until the bag splits and you have big trouble, leave it all open and the slightest leak you will smell way before it is dangerous and you can fix it and if you don't have an a/c then you are one of the crazy few left so ya genny wont get hot and no doubt you will not leave it in the full sun anyway ......
Go for it, you are sitting right on top of 80L anyway, not rocket science :-)
Cheers
Joe
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Follow Up By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 09:06

Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 09:06
Hey Olbaz, it is like a line I saw the other day, it said;

"Those that reckon it can't be done should not bother those that are doing it."

I reckon inside is fine also so long as the simple precautions are done.

But then, each to his own ideas.

Cheers, Bruce.
At home and at ease on a track that I know not and
restless and lost on a track that I know. HL.

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Reply By: Notso - Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 17:09

Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 17:09
It will still smell of fuel. But you aren't the only one to be doing this. No matter what you do you'll still get a smell in the vehicle, particularly if it's left parked in the sun etc.

Heaps of people put a box on the rear bumper, it depends on how strong the bumper is. Who gave you the advice. Were they qualified or was it just a fellow vanner.
AnswerID: 525107

Follow Up By: DesF - Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 18:04

Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 18:04
Just a point , they DO NOT all smell!. I have done many trips with my Honda E350 ( 2 stroke ) genny in the Pajero and Subaru,( Simpson included) .
I shut the fuel off, and run it till it stops, then close the tank vent. and have never had the slightest petrol smell.
Cheers Des.
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Follow Up By: Notso - Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 18:25

Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 18:25
I personally don't do it, with the twin cab it isn't an issue. But I do have a few friends who must be doing something wrong because they complain about it quite regularly. The are using the Honda eu2000i.
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Follow Up By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 09:16

Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 09:16
As DesF says, run the fuel out or any remaining furl in the carby can vaporize and vent back out through the carby and aircleaner into the surrounding area.
This is where most smells are coming from. Also some of these motors have a fuel overflow pipe coming from the carby and that can be another source of fumes.

Draining the carby will solve most of the problems in my experience.

Cheers, Bruce.
At home and at ease on a track that I know not and
restless and lost on a track that I know. HL.

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Reply By: rusti2 - Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 17:17

Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 17:17
hey Tony,we have just done a caravan trip from Sydney to Kimberleys,Broome and down the west coast then back across app 15000klms.I keep mine in the front boot of the van with lid closed and never had one whiff of fuel and used it for free camping at 40 mile beach,cheers
AnswerID: 525109

Reply By: Member - bungarra (WA) - Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 22:07

Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 22:07
Put where you want to!

The generator dry weight is 21kg and so if mounting that weight on the rear bumper bar is going to cause weight and balance issues then you potentially have them already!

If the bumper bar cant handle that weight then it is under designed and going to fail at some stage regardless.............or is it simply there for cosmetic reasons? ....if so then upgrade it by adding sensible supports where appropriate

If the 21 kg out the back (add a full tank of fuel of 4L and you now have 25kg wet weight) is going to cause stability issues with your 'van when towing then once again the stability issue is just waiting to happen when you least expect it.....all you need to do is to load your 'van slightly different one day under/ behind axle and the stability has arrived....

No 'van should be (or in reality ever is) loaded and towed with a precise balance each trip because it is dynamic and can change at times....water tanks full / empty etc. Gas bottles on the A frame empty full etc.

If that weigh causes an upset in towing balance and stability then your on the line of being there anyway.

The genny is a fuel container, it has fumes and can be a missile inside the vehicle in the event of an accident...on the rear it can be secured

Too many people get very pedantic about what you can and cant do...or should or shouldn't.........gets back to common-sense and practicality and what suits your circumstances

cheers



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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 23:23

Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 23:23
Yep Bungarra totally agree,
I have a 2.4 KVA genset, its weatherproof enclosure and 2 x 20 litre Jerry cans on the rear bumper of my caravan. About 90 kilos all up on the back of a 3 tonne van. It’s not a matter of “you can’t do this or that” but the speed you travel, how big your tow vehicle is in comparison to the van, how the whole setup is balanced etc.
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Reply By: The Bantam - Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 23:33

Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 23:33
There are all sorts of people prepared to do and recommend things that realy are not at all a good idea.

The I've been doing such and such for X number of years and had not trouble....does not make anything safe......it just means your number has not come up.

Generators contain fuel......there is no way arround that.

It simply is not a good idea to have a fuel container inside a vehicle, unless it is accomodated in a specifically ventilated accomodation.

If you put a fuel containing thing inside another sealed thing, like a plastic bag or plastic box...sealed up all good a tight....you are just making a bomb by concebtrating the fumes.

As far as mounting a generator on the rear bumper.....well it is explicitly illegal to carry petrol in any type of container on the rear of a vehicle.

If you are to carry a generator on a caravan, the only sensible AND legal place to carry it is on the drawbar, or a specificaly designed and ventilated compartent.

SO..are you feelin' lucky....well are you.

cheers
AnswerID: 525131

Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 10:53

Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 10:53
Hi Bantam you need to check your facts.

Your quote
“As far as mounting a generator on the rear bumper.....well it is explicitly illegal to carry petrol in any type of container on the rear of a vehicle”

It is legal to carry petrol on the rear of a caravan – I have checked this with both the WA Police and the WA Mines Department.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 23:45

Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 23:45
YOU check your facts, go to the federal dangerous goods legeslation and you will find that it is explicity illegal to carry flamable goods ( petrol is in that catagory) on the rear of a vehicle.
OR for that matter unprotected outside the vehicle body line.

The draw bar provides protection from impact.

this matter has been discussed not long ago on this forum with chapeter and verse quoted.


It is however permissable to carry diesel on the rear of a vehicle because it is a different catagory ( combustable).

All too often the police and other departments do not know the detail of every bit of legeslation on the books.

I am however surprised about the poor advice on this occasion.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 12:33

Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 12:33
Hi Bantam – I will take our authorities’ interpretation of the law above yours.

Instead of making vague references to undefined legislation - why not quote extracts from their text and list their titles so that they can be checked?

It is legal, in WA, to carry petrol on the rear of a caravan or 4WD – I have checked this with both the WA Police and the WA Mines Department, see also the extract from the WA Dangerous Goods Act below.

I have included extracts from a few states legislation – these were sent to me in 2012 – they are unchecked by me but they are have more detail than you are quoting.

I have personally checked the WA one, with the relevant authorities, for an opinion.

WESTERN AUSTRALIA
The WA Dangerous Goods Act 1988, and Dangerous Goods (Transport) (Road and Rail) Regulations
1999, contains the relevant regulations, both of which are based on the Australian Dangerous
Goods Code (ADGC), sixth edition.

The maximum permissible quantity is 250 litres of petrol, which should be carried in approved
containers in either the boot or on external brackets. It can be carried within the passenger
compartment, such as the back of a station wagon, in approved, properly restrained containers,
but this is not recommended.
Contact the Explosives and Dangerous Goods Division of the WA Department of Mineral and
Petroleum Resources (Department of Mines) for further into (08 9222 333)

QUEENSLAND
The Transport Operations (Road Use Management - Dangerous Goods) Regulation 1998 permits
carrying up to 250 litres of dangerous goods (fuel) for personal use. The responsibility for
filling a jerry can and ensuring it is an approved container lies with the person filling the
container.

Under the Transport Operations (Road Use Management) Act 1995 owners are prohibited from
modifying their vehicle, its parts or equipment, and from carrying dangerous goods
(irrespective of quantity or position), in an unsafe manner.

This includes carrying containers upright, ensuring they don't leak and are properly secured,
and do not overload the vehicle (especially if transported on roof-racks). A booklet titled Load
Restraint Guide (available from Commonwealth Government Bookshops) should be consulted
Write to: Greg Swann, Group Manager, Vehicle Safety and Industry Reform Section,
Queensland Transport, PO Box 673 Fortitude Valley QLD 4006.

SOUTH AUSTRALIA
In South Australia, petrol is covered by the Dangerous Substances Act and Regulations, which are
in turn based on the ADGC; therefore, the same 250- limit applies.

Diesel is unregulated, as elsewhere, but the Department for Administrative and Information
Services advises that petrol (and diesel) transportation would be covered by the general duty of
care provisions contained in Sections 11 and 12 of the Dangerous Substances Act.

The Road Traffic Act has provisions for duly of care relating to vehicle safety issues such as
overhanging loads and impact protection. They also state that, while carrying fuel in the
driver's vapour space (in a van or wagon), is much debated, it is up to each individual driver
to assess their own risk and duty of care provisions when deciding whether to fit a range tank
or carry fuel in jerry cans. Dangerous Substances Branch, Workplace Services (08) 8303 0447

VICTORIA
In Victoria, the relevant legislation is the Road Act 1995, which has been adopted from
the, (Dangerous Goods) Act -1995 and the Road Transport (Dangerous Goods) Regulations.

The Regulations reference the ADGC under which Regulation 1.10 exempts small quantities of fuel
from the rigours of the Dangerous Goods legislation. This refers, again, to petrol only. Diesel
is not considered dangerous goods.

They maintain it is the responsibility of the driver items, regardless of type, are firmly and
a fuel should be stored in AS2906 containers minimum requirement.
Write to: Victorian WorkCover Authority, Dangerous Goods Unit
GPO Box 4306 Melbourne Vic 3001

NEW SOUTH WALES
The NSW Environment Protection Authority (EPA) and WorkCover NSW are the competent authorities
for dangerous goods control in NSW. They' administer the Road and Rail Transport (Dangerous
Goods) Act 1997 and the Road Transport Reform (Dangerous Goods) (NSW) Regulations 1998.

Under these laws, jerry cans must be approved containers for the transport of Class 3 liquids
(petrol) (ie, AS2906) and the maximum permissible quantity is 250 litres. Diesel is not
considered a dangerous good, but a combustible, and must be carried in a safe manner.

Division 9.3.1 (1) (e) of the ADGC states that 'if the package (ie, jerry can) contains
dangerous goods of a kind that may lead to the formation of flammable, toxic or other harmful
atmospheres - the package must be stowed so that no harmful atmosphere will accumulate in the
cabin If the package leaks'.


NORTHERN TERRITORY.
Only containers which comply with Northern Territory Dangerous Goods Regulation 217 can be used
to transport flammable, (petrol.) and combustible (diesel) fuels. Essentially, this covers
containers complying with AS1533/34 and AS1 940, but 'approved container' is also specified
which indicates that containers complying with AS2906 would also be acceptable.

The Northern Territory Dangerous Goods legislation is b ADGC, which specifies that not more
than 250 litres of petrol can be carried. No quantity is specified for diesel.

Information bulletins are available at www.nt.gov.au/cbb/wha or contact
The Department of Industries and Business, Work Health (08) 8999 511 8

AUSTRALIAN CAPITAL TERRITORY
The transport of fuel is covered under the Dangerous Goods Act. 1975, Dangerous, Goods
Regulations 1978, Road Transport Reform (Dangerous Goods) Act 1995 and Road Transport
(Dangerous Goods) Regulations. The latter takes its requirements from the ADGC.

The DGA (1975) Section, 12 and 14 require fuel to be carried in appropriate, containers
to prevent spillage or leakage, and make it an offence to carry fuel in a manner likely to
cause death/injury, or damage to property.

Section 37(1) of the RTR (DIG) Act1 1995 requires fuel be transported in a safe manner.
Sub Section (2) makes it an offence to do so where a person "ought to have known" that what
they were doing was unsafe or likely to cause damage to persons or property.
Contact: ACT WorkCover (Dangerous Goods) (02) 6207 6354.

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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 16:42

Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 16:42
I thaught for a minute that you may have done some research...but ya havn't, you have just quoted verbatum from an archive thread....and that was a quote from a thread on another forum

And you have failed to take an any of the arguments of that thread.

It must be understood that these days it is rare for a single piece of legeslation to provide an explicit and comprehensive answer.

I hope not to have to take your hand a lead you step by step thru the legesaltion...I realy don't have the time.

the critical phrase is in the ADGC

so we come to the Australian dangerous goods code 2011

Chapter 4 section 2 subsection 1 paragraph 2

During transport, portable tanks must be adequately protected against damage to the shell and service equipment resulting from lateral and longitudinal impact and overturning. If the shell and service equipment are so constructed as to withstand impact or overturning it need not be protected in this way. Examples of such protection are given in 6.7.2.17.5.


and for good measure
paragraph 5

Empty portable tanks not cleaned and not gas-free must comply with the same requirements as portable tanks filled with the previous substance

It is plain and simple that a jerry can ( portable tank) mounted in the rear of a vehicle is not protected from impact.

In fact common sence ( a rare item it seems) indicates that it is a bad idea to carry a quantitry of highly flamable liquid in an exposed position on the rear of a vehicle.
Given that rear end impacts to vehicles are very common

On a rereading oc the ADGC paragrahp quoted it brings into question many places people carry bothe petrol tanks and gass bottles.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 18:20

Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 18:20
Obviously they don’t apply to jerry cans fitted to the rear of a 4WD or caravan in WA (given the two relevant authorities opinions) and I would doubt that they apply in other states too - seeing that their legislation is worded in a similar manner.
None of them specifically disallow mounting of fuel containers on the rear of vehicles – I suspect your interpretation or application of the rules you quote is wrong.
As a side issue – I have twice done the big loop through all states of Australia with two red Jerry cans on the rear – never had an issue with police.
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Follow Up By: andoland - Tuesday, Jan 28, 2014 at 10:58

Tuesday, Jan 28, 2014 at 10:58
The ADGC specifically defines a portable tank as follows:
"Portable tank means a multimodal tank that:
(a) is designed primarily to be loaded onto a vehicle or ship; and
(b) has a capacity of more than 450 L; and
(c) is equipped with skids, mountings, stabilizers and accessories to facilitate manual handling; and
(d) is capable of being loaded and unloaded without removing its service or structural equipment; and
(e) is capable of being lifted when full;"

Very clearly, a jerry can is not a portable tank and therefore the sections of the code quoted by The Bantam are not applicable to use of jerry cans.

I can find nothing in the ADGC that restricts where and how jerry cans can be carried on a private vehicle.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Tuesday, Jan 28, 2014 at 20:15

Tuesday, Jan 28, 2014 at 20:15
Sorry lost interest.

If you want to argue the whole thing go ahead.

This is an issue that was discussed at length on foum after form, with endless wingeing and people with absolutly no will to find the truth.

If you have an opinion was it in writing and from a government department that actually has durisdiction on the matter.

My understanding is that it remains illegal to carry petrol or gas bottles on the rear (or side or frront for that matter) unprotecteced against impact.

The reason why are plain and clear for anybody with a jot of sence.

Go on arguing if you like...but ya just shouting into the wind without a written advice from a government officer with the appropriate dursidiction in each state.

cheers
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Reply By: Motherhen - Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 23:49

Saturday, Jan 25, 2014 at 23:49
If you carry the genny in the car Tony, where will you carry the fuel?

When we first purchased our Honda we did not have time before leaving to make anything suitable to carry it so kept it in the box it came in, in the rear of the Patrol. Even though we ran it dry, the petrol smell was evident when we hit bumps, and some of our travels were on rough roads. Never again We carried the petrol on a rack on the a-frame but it was in an obvious place, and we were prey to the "Hey Mister, I ran out of petrol nearly home, and the children are out in the heat". Just a little to get the family home - and the lot was gone into their car".

We have a custom built box, to our specifications, to take the Honda and cans of fuel and oil, on the a-frame, even though space is tight. The genny and the fuel cans are on slide outs to minimise lifting. Check for a message from me elsewhere.

Motherhen
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AnswerID: 525132

Reply By: Iza B - Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 08:02

Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 08:02
There is more and more evidence emerging that weight a long way to the rear of the axles will and does cause instability problems; you have been well advised there. Look on YouTube for some caravan stability issues for some scary stuff.

Honda no longer advises that you drain the fuel bowl before long term storage, but draining the fuel and then running the genny until it stops will minimise the potential for fumes to be released in the back of the vehicle. This is especially so if the tank vent is closed. I carry my genny in a sealed tradies' box on the ute back. With the tank drained and the vent closed, I do not detect any petrol fumes as I open the box. A friend has recently bought a Honda and straps it in immediately behind the passenger seat of his MH. He drains the tank and closes the vent before it goes in the MH. He was concerned about the possibility of fumes but so far has not detected any, even after the MH has been closed up for a couple of days.

Maybe you only need to find a storage place for a petrol can on the A Frame.

Iza
AnswerID: 525137

Follow Up By: garrycol - Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 16:16

Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 16:16
The weight issue at the rear only becomes an issue if it changes the tow ball weight enough to make it too low. For most caravans/trailers I doubt the gennie weare talking about will make an issue but then if the tow ball weight is a bit light on it may.

Garry
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Follow Up By: Iza B - Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 07:35

Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 07:35
Weight on the rear is much more serious than making some minor change to ball weight. Weight to the rear of the van axle contributes to the Double Pendulum effect and uncontrollable sway by the van.
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 14:46

Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 14:46
It’s the setup of the whole rig that’s important – the following also add to the pendulum effect.
Extra weight in the front of a van (independent of correct ball weight).
Incorrectly set up, or the absence of, load distribution bars.
An incorrect ball weight.
The shorter the length and lighter the weight of the tow vehicle - adds to the pendulum effect.
Speed is a vital factor - Collyn Rivers quote “Having researched this issue in depth for the past 10 or more years I would not personally tow any conventional caravan longer than five metres at over 90 km/h”
I tow a 7 metre van with 90 kilo on its rear bumper at 90ks and hour (less on bad roads), with a long wheel base 4WD.
I consider it stable compared to a lot of other “wobblies” I’ve encountered with nothing mounted on their rear bars.
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Reply By: Honky - Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 08:47

Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 08:47
I have found that it is always the residue of spilt petrol on the outside of my E20 that smells, not the fuel inside the tank. It takes a long time to go away.
If you smell fuel from the tank than I would assume there is a faulty cap.
I have carried it in the tub of my dual cab and no fuel smell at all.

Honky
AnswerID: 525140

Reply By: gbc - Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 16:03

Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 16:03
I cart a 20i around int the back of my ute. It gets used every other day for work purposes. My canopy smells constantly of fuel from it. I wouldn't want it in the cab with me.
AnswerID: 525167

Reply By: Honky - Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 20:04

Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 20:04
Some facts and figures:-

to smell petrol - 250 parts per billion
to get intoxicated - 900 parts per million
for ignition - 1400 parts per million

Honky
AnswerID: 525173

Follow Up By: Member - Andrew & Jen - Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 20:38

Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 20:38
Thanks for some facts Honky. Always useful in a discussion.
Wrt to detection by smell, it is of course the level at which it becomes apparent and does not necessarily indicate the actual level present. Which only needs to be 6 x more for detonation.
Hmmm..... the question is, is it worth the risk? Bit like carrying gas!
Cheers
Andrew
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Follow Up By: Honky - Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 21:16

Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 21:16
I think its a bit more than 6 times.
i am sure someone can convert the 250 PPB against the 1400 PPM.
My maths is not that good

Honky
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 21:47

Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 21:47
Hi Honky.
I'm no maths wizard but in my opinion:
1400 ppm = 1400,000 ppb.
Therefore 250 ppb is about 6000 times the difference – not 6
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew & Jen - Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 22:01

Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 22:01
Oops! Didn't see m vs b :-(
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 23:55

Sunday, Jan 26, 2014 at 23:55
for ignition, you mean ignition for explosion.

Think about this.
Fuel systems leak..its a pretty common occurance...the smell of fumes is realy a side show.

Now consider this generator or other fuel container is in some sort of draw system or a pack of gear.

While the area may not be sealed, the fumes my be retained and concentrated and those smelled in the open cab may be at a very much lower concentration.

consider that pack of equipment may contain sources of ignition, such as the the fridge or any relays, switches or electronics mounted there.

Forget the smell, consider the clearly identified issues.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Slow one - Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 06:28

Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 06:28
To the 1 plus million motor mower users around Australia.

How on earth do you get your fuel from the servo to home.

My bet is 999000 of us fill the fuel can at the servo, and then place it in the boot for the ride home. Love the smell of fresh unleaded in the car as it swirls around the tail light bulbs.



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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 09:57

Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 09:57
Carrying the motor mower over to the motherinlaws or bringing some petrol back from the service station is a whole other thing than, housing a generator and/or fuel in the vehicle day after day.

Mostly the trips with mower or fuel on board are quite short and direct.
This makes the risk period quite short.
AND it is quite practical to do things like leave the windows open.

In a Caravanning, camping or touring 4wd situation Or day to day business vehicles.
The risk is multiplied by time.
The quantities of fuel are generally greater.
Travel on the highway and over rough roads is a near certaintly.
Leaving the vehicle shut up and parked in the sun is likewise a near certanty.

There are lots of things that where done in the past and where never a good idea.


Back in the 80's I would pick up to the local gas depot and carry a cylinder of oxygen or accetelene away in the boot of the Cortina.

These days if you turn up to a either BOC or Air Liquide, they wont let you out the gate unless the gas bottles are properly secured, upright and carried in an adequately ventilated position and adequately protected from impact..

Over the top may be, but there have been a string of flamable goods accidents in recent times..some of the more spactacular ones reported in the media.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Slow one - Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:50

Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:50
Now there are different times when you can carry fuel.

So what you are talking about is likelihood and risk.

I know I carry mower fuel in the back so it is good to hear it is ok by you to do that.

So I am not confused. How much fuel can I carry and for what distance until it is Bantam safe or unsafe.

Likeihood. Say as just as an example. 100,000 vehicles each week carrying both empty and full fuel drums in the car for lets say 2k to the servo and 2k back. That makes a total of 400,000k with vehicles carrying fuel each week. Haven't added all the commercial operators carrying fuel to this.

Bantam you seem to have two different rules.

Bye now

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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 12:03

Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 12:03
The concept of "safe" or " not safe" is very much an over simplification.

Risk is an infinitely variable thing.

and your fiddling with statistics is entirely unhelpfull.

The dangerous goods legeslation makes clear demarkations about what is permissable to carry without licences, plackards and the whole formal dangerous goods handling and transport thing.

Your insurer will definitely have "views" on what it considers an acceptable risk.

Yes indeed many vehicles carry both full and empty fuel containers every day....many of them with little or no consideration of the risks or legalities...this is why we still have spills, vehicles burning and exploding.
The rest have just been lucky

So are you feelin' lucky...well are you.

Out on the roads and in the workplace we have seen significant changes in the last few years.

We have seen much heavier enforcement and employer requirements on load restraint...this is why we frequently see cargo nets used on open utes and trailers these days.

Inspite of this heavy enforcement we still see poorly secured loads and stuff on the side of every highway and major road that has fallen from vehicles.

When there was a national news story about a plumbers van leveled to the chasis due to a gas explosion and an apprentice very lucky to survive.
Some people called it a "freak Accident", the industrial safety community, insurers and the gas industry called it a highly likley event and entirely due to non compliance with several risk elimination practices.
AND we started to see gas bottles handled much less fast I loose.

Industry and business are beginning to recognise the risks involved with (in particular) flamable goods for what they are...that is higher than many people want to believe.

But the Caravan, camping and 4wd community continue to willingly ignorant and continue with a variety of practices that simply would not be accepted in informed industry and business.

I do not claim that carrying a mower and a 5 litre fuel tin in the back of the family waggon is "safe"....for short distances the risk is relativly low.
It is far prefereable to carry the mower and the fuel in an open trailer or open utility...particularly if this was a day after day practice....this would reduce the various risks considerably AND is exactly what most mowing contractors do.

Risk and luck are opposite concepts.

I find it facinating that people will take the 8 145 060 to 1 chance of winning lotto and think they realy might win.
But on the other hand take risks with safety in the couple of thousand to one and think it wont happen to me.



SO...are you feelin' lucky...well are you.

cheers
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FollowupID: 807075

Follow Up By: Shaker - Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 12:37

Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 12:37
Obviously none of you read the Pedantic Replies thread, what a ridiculous bunfight over a simple question!
2
FollowupID: 807080

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 13:48

Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 13:48
Yes I believe it is plainly rediculous that people in the caravan, camping and 4wd community are so willfully ignorant and utterly wreckless with a variety of issues.

In particular 240V power, flamable liquids and explosive gasses.

Even worse they council others to adopt their ignorant and wreckless ways.

Perhaps if someone would have been a little more pedantic, several people would still be alive today, instead of being killed in or near caravans and camp sites due to these very issues.

YEH she'll be right mate.


SO are you feelin' lucky..well are you.

cheers
0
FollowupID: 807090

Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 14:01

Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 14:01
If they are wreckless they must be doing it right – otherwise they’d be wrecked :)
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FollowupID: 807092

Follow Up By: Slow one - Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 14:14

Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 14:14
Dennis,
I like that one.

Shaker, you are correct in what you say. Nuff said as old mate could go on for weeks on what he is allowed to do, and what we are allowed to do.

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FollowupID: 807094

Follow Up By: Nigel Migraine - Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 20:07

Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 20:07
----
The Bantam posted:
Yes I believe it is plainly rediculous that people in the caravan, camping and 4wd community are so willfully ignorant and utterly wreckless with a variety of issues.

In particular 240V power, flamable liquids and explosive gasses.

Even worse they council others to adopt their ignorant and wreckless ways.

Perhaps if someone would have been a little more pedantic, several people would still be alive today, instead of being killed in or near caravans and camp sites due to these very issues.

YEH she'll be right mate.

SO are you feelin' lucky..well are you.
----

Mate: have you considered psychiatric therapy?
1
FollowupID: 807124

Reply By: Batt's - Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 03:19

Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 03:19
Personally I wouldn't put it inside the vehicle I would mount an appropriate sized tool box to the drawbar or on the rear of the van even it it means you have to move the gas bottles a bit or relocate the spare. And as mentioned if 21 kg on the rear is going to upset you load you have bigger issues to deal with a van or trailer should have at least of 60% of the weight forward of the axle. If you balance it 50/50 you're making it dangerous and unsafe to drive. Carrying generators that can leak fumes into the cab is not worth the risk to you or other road users or small children that sit in the back and suck the fumes in that you don't realise are there because peoples sense of smell gets less sensitive with age.
AnswerID: 525188

Reply By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 14:51

Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 14:51
The question Tony N2 asked in the opening post was

"if I put it [the generator] in a plastic storage box and seal it with tape will this stop the petrol fumes."

He gave reasons why he had to carry the genny inside the Cruiser and didn't ask whether or not that was advisable.

The simple answer to Tony's question is "yes".


FrankP

Lifetime Member
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AnswerID: 525212

Follow Up By: Batt's - Tuesday, Jan 28, 2014 at 03:26

Tuesday, Jan 28, 2014 at 03:26
It would be safe if it's never had fuel in it. I didn't see any mention of an approved plastic storage box which will not break down from the leaking petrol fumes and what sort of tape are we talking about approved tape that won't break down and let the fumes out and how can you possibly tell it's sealed correctly without some sort of detector. It's not safe and not worth the risk for the sake of skimping and not mounting it outside where it belongs. I would rather do it correctly instead of possibly nodding off and killing myself or others and NO it wouldn't be safe at all. Happy now.
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FollowupID: 807137

Reply By: Slow one - Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 23:02

Monday, Jan 27, 2014 at 23:02
Tony,
Sorry I got involved with Bantam and didn't answer you.

This thread has again been diverted and I was one of those who took the bate or put the needle in depending how you look at it.

I have to be careful here as I have a few loving enemies.

There is no problem putting the genset on the back of the van in a properly constructed box. As said, if 23 kilos of genny and 10 kilos of box on the back of the van are a problem, then there is a problem with the way the van is either loaded or manufactured.

Yes you can do it but make sure you don't lighten up the ball weight to much. It is best to keep the weight out of the ends of a van but that often is not practical.

I myself would forget about the WA and the rest of Aussie rules regarding whether you can mount fuel containers on the rear of a vehicle. Most state, don't mount it where it can be hit easily. That is the rear or the front quarters of the van. Makes sense I think.

I carry my genny in the rear of the vehicle. It is in an open box so it can't turn over. The fuel is carried the same way, in a 20l jerry can restrained inside a play cube.

Check your ball weight, and by the way it doesn't have to be around 10%. If it is the genny on the back will cause you no grief at all. Great to have all the weight around the axles but that is just not practical unless you build the van yourself.

The way I look at it is and I just carried 50l of unleaded in the car for the genet this afternoon, because there maybe a bit of a blow coming our way.

I work on the premise. If it feels right it probably is.
AnswerID: 525242

Follow Up By: Tony N2 - Tuesday, Jan 28, 2014 at 15:12

Tuesday, Jan 28, 2014 at 15:12
Thanks for all your advice, just had a look at a gen box made by Tony Engineering and they make them for all brands of generators, I will have to mount it on the rear bumper, as I do not have room on the a frame, I have a mobile welder and fabricator coming to have a look this week to see the best way to fit it to the van, I can not weld to do it myself.

After reading the comments I do no think I will have a problem with weight the van has 3500kg chassis and 3700 cruisemaster suspension so it should be ok.

Thanks, Tony
1
FollowupID: 807168

Reply By: Tony N2 - Tuesday, Jan 28, 2014 at 15:13

Tuesday, Jan 28, 2014 at 15:13
Sorry should be Tong Engineering

Tony
AnswerID: 525273

Follow Up By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Tuesday, Jan 28, 2014 at 16:09

Tuesday, Jan 28, 2014 at 16:09
Like Tong, good service and price.
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FollowupID: 807175

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