Flags now mandatory for Simpson Desert.

Hi Muz, colour is ok, but they need to be 3.5 metres from the ground to the top EO ones are a bit short. Cheers Kanga.

I put up the changes info in thread 105884 a couple of weeks ago, luckily before I bought a new sandflag. Cheers. Kanga.

The EO ones extend up to 3.2 metres then add the height above ground when mounted on the bullbar (one on Darkie is about 800mm above the ground) so in effect it could be 4.0 metres above the ground and therefore meets the requirements :)


Cheers Kev

As Kev mentioned the longer of our sand flag kits is most acceptable and well over the 3.5m height requirement once mounted. I have amended the linked shop item at the top to take you directly to the correct unit to purchase should you be looking for a really good set-up.

David

I use one of these mounted on the head board of the ute (4.0m).

Highly recommended, easy to mount & take off when not needed.

And here's a pic..........

Here is one from the front of our car after we got bogged on a clay pan.


Do you remember this Allan.
David

Sure do David.
And if it wasn't for that decent pole we would never have found your vehicle to dig you out!! LOL

Not as yet Leigh, the linked article is the first reference I have seen.
Perhaps SA Parks are intending to be more proactive going forward?

It can only be a positive move in my view.

Just a thought, they may make it a condition to the SA Desert
Parks pass.
No flag means breach of permit condition and fined or prosecuted accordingly??

I honestly would never believe they could administrate such a thing. It would never happen, and if it does, it won't stick.

A flag is supposed to gave a length and a height. It is usually only as wide as the material. Even then they got it wrong.

Just having a dig.

Phil

G'day Phil

Re: "Hi Viz" blindness

I was on a construction site the other day where there were approximately 35 to 40 workers all wearing Hi Viz - bar one newbie who had on a medium to dark brownish checked shirt with black lines.Well - didn't he stand out more than anybody else on the site !! Maybe all the OH& S mob should be looking into brown flanno checked shirts for safety ???? He was far more visible than anyone else !


Cheers

Gazz

Good one. Had to do more than click Thanks.

A bit like the old story of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf!".

But don't get me wrong. I think that the flags are a good idea but am disappointed in a lot of so called Australians who don't give a stuff about others.

Working on a new mount for mine as we speak.

Phil

Hi

All about contrast to prevailing background..send the brown flanno checked guy into the centre of an operating mine site at night, tell him to stand still and see how long he lasts. Hi viz works in environment its designed for. Fluro stands out like the proverbial on a darker background (e.g. 35 to 40 guys/gals in brown flannelet shirts) .

Go dark (black/blue) colours myself as don't like to be seen by things I'm looking for.

Going OT..Flannelet is a great disguise in WA south west pubs like Mumballup, Nannup, Pemberton and Northcliffe but don't order Coronas as your cover will be blown :)

Cheers
Greg

G'day Greg

There is a big difference between a mine site at night and a construction site in broad daylight under glaring sun ! I was just passing on my, and a few others observations about the guy in the brown on how much more noticeble he was to all the others !

Had a few beers with some of the overpaid miners in those establishments when I was in the west but definitely not Coronas !

Things are certainly different over in the west - most airports in Australia are packed with pend---s in suits but when I was in Perth I reckon 70% of travellers were wearing your beloved Hi Viz - was an amazing site !

All the best buddy

Gazz

GregCheck your emails. Phil

fluro on minesites is a relativly new thing
in the late 90s we only needed a fluro vest on nightshift other wise it was shorts and short sleeved sirt with a collar
and that was on one of australias biggest minesites

PS our flag!

Yep! Looks 3.5 meters :)

It may well be a long pole but look how it is bending back & down just in the breeze with a stationary vehicle.

I have seen a number like this with flexible poles that cause the flag to sit just above the roof at the rear of the vehicle and accordingly are not visible as they should be. Almost certainly the driver is not aware of the behaviour of his flag when the vehicle is moving.

You forgot the red light. The one for the planes.

Mine is just about 1.5M above the roof of the car. Plenty.

Agree with you Beatit.

Phil

G'day Allan,

The pole is actually quite rigid except for the very tip bit which is wippy. But at 160 kph it might bend a little more.

Kind regards

Just a point to keep in mind. Not necessarily with flag poles but with tall whippy antennas.

Following a car back in the 80's when we had those tall 27Mhz antennas on the car. Some made their own from stainless steel. Very much like the HF ones that are around these days for 4WD HF.

Anyway, the antenna on the car in front of us, yep we had a "convoy", was mounted on the right hand side mudguard and as he went past a truck it bent over and actually hit the side of the truck and broke off. Okay No damage to the truck but the damned antenna nearly wiped us out as it flew past.

Just watch those tall whippy things people. That's all.

Phil

Have read the odd complaint on various forums over the years about the French Line or the CSR even the Anne Beadell not being graded often enough :)

With respect Gazz, motorbikes are at the highest risk catagory of becoming a new ornament to the bullbar whilst cresting dunes.
Can't be seen & traveling at high speed, not a good combination.

Its positively dangerous on a bike Gazz , no way would I do that at 3.5m it sounds like you , like me have ridden the place and know what a positively stupid idea it is.

A short flag that doesn't destablize the bike would gain some support, as would hi-vis clothing.

Visibilty is important but none of these people seems to understand the unintended consequences, and probably think a bike creeps along the track vertically, whereas a bike by its nature has to lean sometimes which puts a 3.5m high spear at an angle that can hit bushes and embankments not even taking into account the spears additional bending.

Do they even understand the mounting forces and destabilizing forces imparted to a bike frame !

Next they will be asking bikes to put on better mufflers so as to not disturb the Camels and guarantee that no car driver will hear the bike coming.

Gazz, I'm not a motorcycle rider so not familiar with the dynamics but it did seem a bit odd to me to lumber one with a 3.5m flagpole! I would imagine that it takes all your skill to stay upright without having that waving around above you.

Having said that, one of my concerns when tackling dunes in the Troopy is encountering a bike at the crest. Seen plenty of bikes in the Simpson but not at a crest thank goodness. I put my trust in my good mast & flag and hope that a bike rider will see it in time to take evasive action. That and the fact that my style is to roll over the crest at low speed.
Hopefully a bike can take faster avoidance than my Troopy.

So I understand your position on this.

I've never understood why motorbikes seem to be exempt from noise laws, having to obey road signage & to keep inside double white lines, maybe someone will enlighten me one day!

Hi Shaker as you could imagine , they are not exempt from noise laws but some make it worse with exhaust mods.

But an appropriate amount of noise from a bike is a saftey factor as you can hear them coming before you see a flag - works well in the desert where cars should be going slow and not making much noise so long as car driver doesn't have loud music on.

They are now discovering the advantage of some noise from cars after accidents caused by people not hearing silent electric cars !.

Shaker, they appear to be exempt for several reasons:

1. They have excellent relations with police at a high level. At least in Victoria, some police were tipping off gangs before raids.

2. Police are too scared to go near them.

3. Police are too busy going for the low hanging fruit to worry about dealing with members of unpleasant criminal gangs.

Bob

G'day Shaker

The topic is about sand flags.

I have been travelling across the Simpson Desert for 25 years and have yet to see road signage and the double white lines and I have been on every track and in every direction !

Got any Pics so I know what to look for when I'm there in a few months time ?


Cheers Shaker


Gazz

Hi Gaz,

We have had a few bikes come through with a small 1m pole & flag attached to their backpack.

I'd think headlights on would be more relevant for motorbikes, as well as people actually looking outside their vehicles when travelling across the Simpson.

Are you coming through this season?

G'day Jeff

Good to hear from you !

Coming up your way in a few months - just a private trip with a few mates to try out their new cars and bikes and get away from their missus for a while! I won't be bringing any of those - I best make this politically correct - "crazy" Japanese with me though ! Wait til I see you and tell you about how the trip went after we left Mt Dare - funny funny people ! One of them has done the Dakar 5 times and the Australian Safari 8 times and just out of Katherine he wanted to drive down an embankment about 50 metres to get footage of him crossing a river in the Toyota - well, after telling him no less than ten times not to go down there as he will never get back up he said "I'm 5 time Daker driver" drove straight down and bogged the Cruiser in the river - very interesting recovery exercise to get him back up to the top with the dumb Aussie - me !!

Look forward to catching up, having a beverage and hearing some of your recovery stories !

All the best

Gazz

G'day John and Allan

Yes I understand your concerns about the bikes - but as you both know there are people that ruin it for others whether they be on a bike or in a 4wd. The riders on my trips are fully briefed on the do's and dont's of crossing the desert - pretty much number one of the rules is to throttle off when approaching a crest and go no faster than walking pace - look for oncoming vehicles first, check the downhill track for ruts, washouts, obsticles etc second, then start enjoying your ride and always slow down when you see another vehicle coming your way even if you are on a claypan ! Has worked a treat so far.

What scares me the most in the desert is the novice 4wdriver with lots of money in his new Cruiser with all the bells and whistles who has absolutely no idea what he is doing !

It would be very intersesting to see how many bikes have actually become bullbar ornaments because if there was an official statistic I would bet it to be very few ! At 40 kph at the top of a sand dune a bike. if had to, could stop dead still within it's length which is approx 6 feet - the ones that get hit would be by the inexperienced 4wdriver looking at the scenery not looking where he is going !

Remember guys - we share the same passion as you for the desert and outback travel - we just choose to do it on a bike !

Hopefully our paths will cross one day out there and we can share a drink and some great stories.

All the best

Happy and safe travelling

Gazz

Gazz,
Never had any incident with a bike, only had concern for the potential on dunes. I know of no incidents and as you say, "I would bet it to be very few".
I'm sure also that my greater risk is a V8 powered Cruiser using heaps of power and momentum coming over the top and with no effective flag.
I'm happy to share the tracks with you and I have a great respect for anyone who can straddle a bike for day-after-day on those tracks.

Cheers for that Allan

Here's an article from the Advertiser in South Australia about a rescue on one of my trips across the desert back in 2000. One of the riders - a very very good rider started relaxing and looked to the left to see the scenery not 2 minutes before we were to stop and set up camp. He went over the bars and cracked 3 vertibrae in his neck. No speed involved, no oncoming traffic just complete lack of concentration and a rut he didn't see. I'm not good at copying pics etc so I hope this turns out - if not I will try again.

Cheers

Gazz

Allan

Seems to work for me if click on and open link.

Re: straddle a bike for day after day on those tracks
Mate - Hyperthetically speaking of course - if there were no cars in the desert and on the right bike with fuel drops along the way, I could leave Mt Dare after breakfast and be in Birdsville for a counter lunch and a well deserved beer !

All the best

Gazz

Outback Gazz, the thread is about sand flags, as you pointed out to me earlier today!

Apologies to you Shaker - I got side tracked a bit - I'm not used to having a day off and spending time on forums - I got a bit excited !

Got those pics of the double white lines in the desert ????


Cheers mate and don't get too stressed

All the best

Gazz

Ha ha! I'll go through my albums.

Here Here!

I wrote to fwdvic, even offering to develop a protocol in consultation with the various clubs and got zip.

There is no standard channel in most of Australia ( though there is on the Simpson), no reinforcement of the repeater rules. No protocol on use in dues, narrow tracks etc.

Ditto, and it's so basic easy and so basic.

and do it for the Canning as well. Much better early warning than a sand flag IMHO.

G'day Boobook,

I think that the main thing with the new sand flag proposal is the need to make them mandatory, there have been way too many people crossing the Simpson Desert with either no sand flag at all or all sorts of makeshift things that you just cannot see.

When I was asked for my input, one of the main things that I stressed, apart from everyone having a decent sand flag is that I think that headlights on should be mandatory as well.

I will see a vehicles headlight from 3 kms away, whereas I will only spot a sand flag from a couple of hundred meters.

Motorbikes are a whole other headache that I put in the too hard basket, we've been getting calls from motorbike riders already asking where they stand!

Agree with the lights which should extend to the highway.
Are you able to say who asked for your input as I reckon everyone would like to know where the 4wd mob get their info from sometimes. No mention of this proposal on any govt. site that I can see.
Whatever we'll continue to use our flag which is 4m high and shove something frilly and bright up top.
Cheers

I'm not sure why 4wd Australia aren't pushing for these things ( maybe they are). The flag rule will be great if and when it comes in.

Sand or mountainous tracks, there is often short notice of people coming the other way. Headlights, flags and UHF are all tools to singnal that you are coming.

My real bugbear is UHF's.

Lots get one as one of the first 4wd accessories which is great. But there is insufficient and inconsistent information on their use and they only have a fraction of their real value.

What channel should I use in the High country? - take your pick from about 70 channels. Even if you are on the same frequency people rarely announce their presence.

Then even when there are designated channels, like Ch 10 on the Simpson, people use it as their intra convoy chat channel. Then there are those that don't get them at all.

A code of practice for all of the above would be great.

Prado 01,

The Department of Environment, Water & Natural Recourses asked for our input in the middle of last year, so not really a new development.

Boobook,

Having the supposedly dedicated UHF channel 10 for the Simpson Desert is good in theory, but in practice it only works intermittently, I much prefer to look, listen & watch out for other travelers.

People tend to be so wrapped up in their own adventure that they sometimes forget that there are other people out there.

I've been returning from a recovery & saw headlight shine approx. 3 ks away, so pulled up for a break & waited for them to get to me. (Yes I do call ahead every couple of dunes on ch10, as well as have the UHF on open scan).

While waiting I sat & listened to their radio chatter, & there was barely breathing space between comments.

I was in the cruiser, with headlights on & sand flag up, but they didn't see me until they came over the dune in front of me, I can only assume severe myopia on their part!

Recently got my Desert Parks pass a week ago for late April crossing, and noticed no mention of the proposed new sand flag rule . . . I had seen the Four Wheel Drive Aust website notice quite a few weeks ago, and was expecting something in the info, so I emailed them to confirm.

The reply received last week was . . .
"In regards to your email regarding the flags, I have been told that it will be mandatory for all vehicles to have one but we have not been told officially as yet!
So my best advice is to have all vehicles fitted with one just in case you are stuck in the Desert when it does become mandatory."

Not sure they could actually fine anyone before it gets put into at least an amendment sheet in the pass info packs, maybe a warning.

That said, we always use a flag in dunes, be it outback, Vic Desert parks, or down the SE Limestone Coast dune tracks.
Common sense stuff, and has saved me having a head on once down near Robe.

A few in our group may not have a flag, but ifthey don't wish to fit one for whatever reason, they would be placed well in the middle of the pack.

The UHF use is critical too, both calling ch 10 often (at least every second dune) and scanning on hand held for other chatter.
As soon as you hear it, you know you're pretty close.

The bugga of it is though, that many don't reply to a call apparently, as reported by many doing the crossing.
Maybe they just don't know how to respond or they think they're not part of the conversation, who knows ?

The height difference is likely because the roof rack mounting is further to the rear, hence lower than the bullbar on approach.
It therefore needs to be higher to equate to something like the height of the front mounted flag going up a dune.

Yes, very much so, as with a diagram I did a while ago to confirm just how much more visible a flag is when placed on the front on a bull bar, rather than a roof rack.



Even if that roof flag was the same height as the front bullbar, it still wouldn't be seen as early.

I assume motorbikes accessing the Simpson must be registered for road use and would have a headlight, as opposed to a trail bike?

All vehicles crossing the Simpson Desert must be registered.

How else would they get a Desert Parks Pass?

The last time I looked you must have working headlights to register any motor vehicle in Australia...

Somehow I doubt every bike would have its own Desert Parks Pass.
An example would be a vehicle that tows say three bikes up on a trailer and they then ride across with the vehicle following for backup and support.
Under that basis they would require four passes, one for the car and one for each bike.

One pass for every vehicle is correct, so 3 bikes and a support vehicle = 4 passes.

I just checked which I probably should have done in the first place, my apologies.

Bikes in Victoria used on public property require recreational registration which means lights etc, I assume SA and other states have the same sort of requirement.
And as said above, every vehicle requires a pass.

My thought process not being a bike rider was a trail bike without a headlight which appears can't be used on public land.

Looks like the world hasn't quite gone insane.

I'm all for reasonable saftey measures on our bikes, and as a sometimes motocross offical, the forces generated by a 3.5m flag on off-line bike could have been seriously destabilzing.

Spot on Robin,

The DEWNR have been in consultation with various parties about the risks to motorbike riders, & haven't come up with a satisfactory solution yet.

Maybe a flashing LED on top of the riders helmet, most of them seem to have GoPro's mounted up there!

Hmmm... Didn't work.

Try this.