Lithium Ion Batteries

Submitted: Sunday, Aug 17, 2014 at 08:53
ThreadID: 109167 Views:3592 Replies:10 FollowUps:11
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I am in the market for a replacement battery and would like any advice from anyone with experience with the L/O batteries . I would appreciate any info as to whether they are any good as a starting battery for a L/C T/d as well as the fridge and the best place to buy.
Cheers
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Reply By: olcoolone - Sunday, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:08

Sunday, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:08
I would put lithium batteries on hold for the time being especially in automotive applications.

When a main stream player comes out with them as a replacement then look at them.

There are many so called advantages of going lithium if you read the marketing hype but end of the day if some of these advantages were warranted and true in real life needs many vehicle manufactures would be using them as original equipment...... pay two to four times the price and get no real life advantage.

Some camper trailer and caravan manufactures have jumped on the band wagon early but again it might just be marketing hype for there own "look how great we are" thoughts.

Hybrid cars are a classic example, we were told how fantastic they are and how good it is to pay twice the price for the advantage of hybrid technology only to find out now new high tech turbo petrol engines have more power, better economy and are much cheaper to buy and maintain.

In the next few years I think fuel cells will overtake lithium batteries and lithium batteries will go back to powering power tools and small vehicles.

Time will tell and I may be eating my words and using them BUT then again they may turn out to be a flop and fade away in history.
AnswerID: 537803

Follow Up By: Slow one - Wednesday, Aug 20, 2014 at 12:20

Wednesday, Aug 20, 2014 at 12:20
I gotta agree with olcoolone on the new batteries. With the same warranty as a standard battery it will cost a heap it the battery dies.

I will be waiting to see where these batteries go in relation to price and warranty.
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Reply By: Injected - Sunday, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:26

Sunday, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:26
Lithium Ion Batteries are very expensive to purchase and require a special charger too.
Yes, they are considerably lighter and have more useable amp/hrs, but the cost and lack of availability of them outside major capitals and regional towns, I wouldn't use them.
Regards
AnswerID: 537806

Follow Up By: Bigfish - Sunday, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:50

Sunday, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:50
I put one in my Harley. 1800cc and a newish power motor. The difference was amazing. Cost $380 compared to about$200 for an ordinary battery. HOWEVER , the lithium is 700cca compared to about 200cca of the original. The motor absolutely spins over brilliantly on start up. Has never started so well since 2008 when it was built. The battery weighed 2 kg compared to about 9 kilo of the old one. Had it sit there for a month at a time without starting and it still fires up super fast. Never had a battery perform as well. The last battery was an odyssey(top model supposedly) and it doesn't perform any where near as good. Expensive ,,,,yes..BUT this was for a bike. A bigger battery would be needed for a 4wd and as such probably in the sub $1000.00 class for a top end battery. The average contributor on here has no idea about the future of these batteries. Multinational companies already know what will take place in 5-10 years time. A lithium powered motorcycle just lapped the Isle OF mANN tt RACE AT OVER 100MPH. I have seen several all electric bikes on the road. Harley have a super quick all electric nike doing the rounds in America now. Press releases are favourable and harley have suggested that this is the future. YOU DO NOT NEED A SPECIAL CHARGER. Mine specifically says that an ordinary charger will do..HOWEVER.....charging times and trickle charge are areas that must be followed. No need to trickle charge apparently as they hold their charge. Mine certainly does (security system saw my other batteries loose power/voltage after 2 weeks of non use). Your choice but on a small car/motorbike etc..brilliant.
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FollowupID: 822044

Follow Up By: Ross M - Monday, Aug 18, 2014 at 09:49

Monday, Aug 18, 2014 at 09:49
bigfish
How do you get a Harley to observe "....charging times and trickle charge are areas that must be followed."?
Isn't the Harley charging system just a charging system ie no frills?

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Follow Up By: Louwai - Monday, Aug 18, 2014 at 12:29

Monday, Aug 18, 2014 at 12:29
I have similar comments to BigFish.
Again, while not a 4x4, I have an LIO crancking battery in my 1300cc motorcycle. Bought it earlier this yr. It sat in the garage (not on a charger) for 6wks before installing. Put it in the bike & it has been absolutely AWESOME ever since. Much higher CCA than the next nearest battery & less than 50% of the weight of the standard.

Also as BigFish noted, no special charger required.

I currently have 2 x 110ah Aux batteries in my landcruiser & also 2 x 110ah batteries in my trailer. I will definately be replacing them for LIO batteries when the time comes.

If there is an LIO battery suitable as a cranking battery for the landcruiser I'll be going that way too...
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FollowupID: 822090

Follow Up By: Member - kyle46 - Monday, Aug 18, 2014 at 19:25

Monday, Aug 18, 2014 at 19:25
I looked at one for the f series 1500cca but at $2000 wasn't pulling out the visa card
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Follow Up By: Bigfish - Monday, Aug 18, 2014 at 19:42

Monday, Aug 18, 2014 at 19:42
bigfish
How do you get a Harley to observe "....charging times and trickle charge are areas that must be followed."?
Isn't the Harley charging system just a charging system ie no frills?

Sorry Ross. I meant that a trickle charge SHOULD NOT be used when bike is not being used for long periods as the battery looses very small amount of charge. The trickle charge can in fact damage the battery if left on for a long time. This is off the info sheet supplied with battery.
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FollowupID: 822099

Reply By: Sand Man (SA) - Sunday, Aug 17, 2014 at 12:56

Sunday, Aug 17, 2014 at 12:56
Regardless of the type of battery you end up choosing, keep in mine the folly of attempting to use one battery as your primary (starting) battery and run the fridge as well.

That is what a dual battery system is designed for. To keep the starting battery from being flattened by high current draining devices and therefore the inability to start the car. It includes an isolator to keep the two batteries electrically separated from each other.

It is one thing to suffer the inconvenience of spoilt food and warm beer due to the auxiliary battery being flattened and being stuck out in the middle of nowhere, unable to start and drive your vehicle back to civilization.



Bill


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AnswerID: 537807

Reply By: Wayne's 60 - Sunday, Aug 17, 2014 at 13:09

Sunday, Aug 17, 2014 at 13:09
Hi B.B.

A little more information would be helpful.

What type of Landcruiser?
How big is the fridge?
Where are you located?

While not THE answer to your question, I have just dropped two 1000 CCA CAT batteries into the 80 series. At just over $200 each, we are happy with the way the 110 ltr Waeco runs and the way the vehicle starts up :-)

Hope that this helps a little.

Cheers,
Wayne & Sally.
AnswerID: 537808

Reply By: awill4x4 - Sunday, Aug 17, 2014 at 13:44

Sunday, Aug 17, 2014 at 13:44
Perhaps as not as a starting battery but very definitely as an auxilliary battery or battery power supply for a camper or caravan.
Not using Lithium Ion in these scenarios but using LiFePo4 will be the battery of choice.
When my AGM's die in my van I'll definitely change to LiFePo4's at half the weight and similar amp/hr ratings and much greater ability to discharge to lower state of charge than AGM's.
Battery charging algorithms are still in their infancy but as the major players like Redarc step up it will make it an easier option than it currently is.
Regards Andrew.
AnswerID: 537810

Reply By: Iza B - Sunday, Aug 17, 2014 at 14:00

Sunday, Aug 17, 2014 at 14:00
I just bought the bits to put a 40 Ah one together. I will use it to run a washing machine and the Engel overnight and a sewing machine and as a general portable power pack. One of my first tests will be to use it as a starting battery for the DMax. Standard starter is only rated at 450 CCA and LiFePo can handle that with capacity left over. Not exactly as a Plug and Play but I need to put some smarts between the raw alternator output and the battery. All indications are the I could probably replace the current starter with a 18 AH LiFePo.

Don't be put off by all the negative replies. Things have moved forward lots recently. A knowledgeable person on another forum has suggested looking at Fusion brand as a plug and play. Bit more expensive than an old technology Lead Acid but also comes with a likely life of three times that of a Lead Acid equivalent. What value do you put on lighter, smaller, and more usable capacity for the buck.

Iza
AnswerID: 537812

Reply By: skulldug - Sunday, Aug 17, 2014 at 16:48

Sunday, Aug 17, 2014 at 16:48
Bosun,
I can only talk from experience. They are the duck's nuts. Have a talk to Ev Works in Perth. As an auxiliary battery, they are safe, cost effective, are 50% lighter than an AGM and not difficult to manage. Can't say if they will work as a starter battery. Do a search for Winston Batteries.

Skull
AnswerID: 537816

Reply By: Bosun Broome - Sunday, Aug 17, 2014 at 17:55

Sunday, Aug 17, 2014 at 17:55
Thanks guys,
I will be using the battery to run an 80 Waeco but was wondering if they could start L/c 200 if required.I think I will give them a try.
Cheers Bosun
AnswerID: 537818

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Monday, Aug 18, 2014 at 09:21

Monday, Aug 18, 2014 at 09:21
Remember the Landcruiser has a 160 amp alternator that may exceed the charge rate of the battery.
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FollowupID: 822083

Reply By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Monday, Aug 18, 2014 at 14:34

Monday, Aug 18, 2014 at 14:34
G'day Bosun,

First off, the most appropriate lithium technology for what you are proposing is Lithium IRON Phosphate (not ion without the "r"). The two are quite different chemistries.

Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are frequently referred to as lithium Iron which causes confusion with the other type, lithium ion (without the "r"). They are also called LiFe batteries, a shortening of the chemical formula for Lithium Iron Phosphate which is LiFePO4 - Li is the symbol for lithium, Fe for iron and PO4 is the phosphate.

As others have said, don't be put off by the naysayers. Continue your investigations. I have just returned from a 10 day field test of my newly installed LiFe batteries in my Karavan. They are fantastic. Twice the useable power, half the weight, flat discharge curve so everything gets a full 12V all the time, little voltage sag under high load (130amps pulled by the inverter while running the microwave resulted in only 0.5V sag), almost Instant recovery from high loads, quick re-charge - nearly twice as fast as lead-acid USING THE SAME LEAD-ACID CHARGER. They don't sulphate, have no memory effect and can live happily with their SOC never getting to 100%.

As Skulldug said, they are indeed the duck's nuts.

I got my 360Ah pack from EV Power in WA.

Re chargers, though specific lithium chargers are preferred, EV Power advised that to save costs it is quite OK to use the same good-quality dc-dc charger, mains charger and solar reg as used with my AGM battery pack. On this test trip all gave excellent results, but charging would have been be even faster if they all had suitable lithium profiles.

Have a look at this page from EV Work's website. The text pretty much addresses the concerns raised in this topic.

Cheers

FrankP

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AnswerID: 537845

Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Tuesday, Aug 19, 2014 at 03:50

Tuesday, Aug 19, 2014 at 03:50
Just had a bit of a read of your link
$260 odd for 40 amps @ 8 kg with 12months warranty so for most requirements you would need two at a minimum (80 amps 16 kg $540)

Does not appear to be a very cost effective solution that uses the same amount of space and saves about 6kg in weight over lead acid equivalent ?

Or am I missing something?
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FollowupID: 822112

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Aug 19, 2014 at 08:10

Tuesday, Aug 19, 2014 at 08:10
Alby.... that's why Nike make expensive running shoes that only 20% of runners use.... and the rest of use are happy with thongs.

In race applications where saving grams is good but for everyday use IMO there is hardly no real advantage.

Years ago Plasma LED TV's were mega dollars to buy, look at the TV's of then and now and it's like chalk and cheese in quality, features and the price has dropped considerably...... whereby back then the good old CRT TV's had better colour and image qualities and still does today.

Lithium batteries are going to be like Plasma and LCD TV's.... once the technology settles down to become the 6 generation lithium battery then I might think about it.

12mth warranty is a bit of a concern.


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FollowupID: 822115

Follow Up By: Grinner - Wednesday, Aug 20, 2014 at 09:56

Wednesday, Aug 20, 2014 at 09:56
"Just had a bit of a read of your link
$260 odd for 40 amps @ 8 kg with 12months warranty so for most requirements you would need two at a minimum (80 amps 16 kg $540)

Does not appear to be a very cost effective solution that uses the same amount of space and saves about 6kg in weight over lead acid equivalent ?

Or am I missing something?"

Alby, I don't claim to be an expert, but from what I have researched, you can't compare the AH ratings between the batteries.

It is generally accepted that from a lead acid battery, you can only use 50% of its capacity if you want to maintain it for a long life. So in your 40 AH example, you can only use 20 AH of the battery.

For LiFe batteries, they claim that you can safely use 80% of its capacity, so from a 40 AH LiFe battery, you could use 32 AH.

So a 40 AH LiFe battery is equivalent to a 64 AH Lead acid battery. This is where the weight and cost comparisons become more apparent.

Jason.
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FollowupID: 822151

Reply By: Bosun Broome - Monday, Aug 18, 2014 at 23:29

Monday, Aug 18, 2014 at 23:29
Thanks Fred for your advice- I will look further and will go that way. Cheers
AnswerID: 537865

Follow Up By: Bosun Broome - Monday, Aug 18, 2014 at 23:30

Monday, Aug 18, 2014 at 23:30
Sorry Frank for the Fred
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