Windorah QLD fuel

Submitted: Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 19:05
ThreadID: 109416 Views:3978 Replies:15 FollowUps:22
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Refuelled at Windorah QLD today at the only outlet. Kia Sorento has a tank capacity of 70 litres. It had about 7 litres in it but the fill came to 71 litres. Owner aggressive when I queried his pump calibration. !!!
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Reply By: Sir Kev & Darkie - Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 19:29

Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 19:29
How did you know you had 7 litres left in it??

Tank capacities are always not 100% correct due to manufacturers allowing space for vapour etc so it is quite easy to squeeze in quite a few extra litres.


Cheers Kev


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Follow Up By: Thinkin - Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 21:58

Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 21:58
"Tank capacities are always not 100% correct due to manufacturers" bla bla.
How do you know this. Are the capacities or dimensions of motor vehicle specifications more, or less, than advertised.
If the capacity of the fuel tank is advertised as 70ltrs, you would have to assume its very close.
No motor vehicle would run a tank completely empty of its theoretical capacity, so you would have to assume there is x ltrs amount of fuel left in the tank. The volume of a fuel tank will never change, but bowser volume readings can change.
That's why they have a licensed mob that periodically calibrate bowsers to make sure they don't go out of wack too far.
Cheers Alpero
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Reply By: Bob Y. - Qld - Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 19:29

Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 19:29
How did you verify the "about 7 litres"? You may have only had 1-3 L left in the tank, and with 3-4 L in the filler, that would account for the excess fuel dispensed.

No wonder he arced up.....you were doubting his integrity, with no real proof.

Bob

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Can't remember most of it.

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Follow Up By: Oldrusty - Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 22:31

Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 22:31
Filled once at Rabbit Flat on the Tanami and my sub tank that had never taken more than 33 litres in many refuelling stops amazingly took 36 litres. When asking about the calibration was told to f*** off if I didn't like it and go somewhere else. Where does one go if requiring fuel at Rabbit Flat! That tank never again took so much fuel! However ensured I had enough fuel to bypass Rabbit Flat on subsequent trips. No wonder he is no longer in business.
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Follow Up By: Bob Y. - Qld - Monday, Sep 08, 2014 at 19:28

Monday, Sep 08, 2014 at 19:28
Thanks for that, Rusty.

Never been up the Tanami, but had heard he used to be a bit of a unit. :-)

Bob

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Reply By: Ross M - Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 20:32

Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 20:32
In support of tazbaz, he probably has owned the vehicle for a while, like most of us have owned ours.
He will have experienced the light indicator and know from previous fills how mcu will then fill the tank.
Even if he went over that mark the distance travelled after that point, it is then reasonably determinable how much fuel will fit in the tank.

The estimated 7 L left means around 63 have been used, and therefore a fill of 71 means a difference of around 9% over the expected fill amount.
That is quite a bit.

My vehicle light came on today, From that and ALL previous fills done around the same, I know it will be about 62/63L I add until the neck is full.
You may be surprised how accurate level sensing the gauges are!
They are quite different to older vehicles. I have quite a few apart and the gauge unit and the level sensor are crisp in operation. Not perfect but very good.

So there is a method of how you can tell, besides KM's travelled.

Aren't other people observant enough to know? Such filing stations will love you.
+ 8L at $1.60 only means ONLY $12.80 more than you thought it would be for that amount of fuel. That is Ok you won't notice. All pumps are calibrated correctly aren't they?????
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 20:33

Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 20:33
second line mcu = much Sorry!
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Follow Up By: disco driver - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 00:24

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 00:24
"You may be surprised how accurate level sensing the gauges are"?????????

And flow meters are less accurate than a float varying a rheostat through the movement of a lever. I can't believe that!!

You'd have to be dreaming, considering that by law the State "Weights and Measures" Dept's are required to check all bowsers regularly.

Apart from all that it will depend on how much fuel can be added after the legal fill point (when the auto fill cuts in)
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 07:45

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 07:45
DiscoDriver
On a level surface the level sensor will read the same each time, it simply does it's job. Not quite like a micro switch but close.

The flow meters you refer to have NOTHING to do with what we are talking about, do you catch RED Herrings often.
If you aren't extremely familiar with the internals of vehicle systems then your judgement may be a bit off.

The Auto fill as you call it is more likely to be am Auto cut off.
It is nozzle controlled and not foam and breathing of tank controlled and so will vary enormously. Not something which should be mentioned here, simply not applicable. Way off in fact.

Weights and measures possibly only get to out there when they feel like it is necessary. Strange the pump isn't the OTHER WAY AROUND in it's operation.
DREAMING?????
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Follow Up By: Member - Peter M (QLD) - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 09:02

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 09:02
Many years ago the Qld Government sacked all of the weights & measures inspectors that were based in rural queensland and I beieve they contracted the job out to someone like Gilbarco.
What you will probably find that when the service station calibrates the number of litres the pump will dispense they will calibrate it at something like 1.009 and every 100 litres that gets them extra dollars for nothing COMBINE this with the fact that almost every service station calibrates their price the same way. EG: I recently at a service station controlled by the big 2 and the advertised price for LPG 89c per ltr the amount actually charged was 89.9c perltr withe millions of litres they sell how much extra do you think they all maker per year.
The alleged inspectors know of this wrought as do the Consumer affairs people.
Profit is not a dirty word but unfair profit is
PeteM
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Follow Up By: disco driver - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 17:39

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 17:39
Ross,
I agree that when a vehicle is stationary and level the level sensor will read the same each time, but that is only an approximate reading considering that most fuel gauges only have lines showing approx. 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and F. And that is what you call accurate????

Can you in your infinite wisdom tell what actually measures the amount of fuel being pumped into your vehicle and thus shows on the fuel bowser. Is it not a Flow meter????

OK I got the terminology wrong, it IS an automatic fuel cut off but it does cut the fuel off well before the the entire fuel storage assembly is full to leave a space for expansion.
However it is possible that you can get another 5-10 litres in before it overflows from the tank filler, particularly if you or anyone else is going to continue driving for some distance immediately after fill up.

As an aside most of your replies on this forum border on the "Know it all" variety and often rub people the wrong way, me included.
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 20:16

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 20:16
Ah, the personal attack. Always happens when the "tank" is empty so to speak.
Do you have a few decades of training and experience in the world of automotive? Perhaps not and what I may mention is confronting for you.
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Follow Up By: disco driver - Monday, Sep 08, 2014 at 00:12

Monday, Sep 08, 2014 at 00:12
Ross,
You have just proved my point about "Know it all" answers in your response to my last post where I asked a couple of what should be, for an expert, very easy to answer questions.

1. Is a fuel gauge an accurate instrument.
2. How do they measure the amount of fuel going into a motor vehicle from the bowser, is it a flowmeter.

You didn't bother to answer but rather decided to go all out attacking with no attempt to help me learn the errors of my ways.


End of story.
Any further posts from you will be ignored (on any subject at all)
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FollowupID: 823346

Reply By: bob&loz - Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 20:44

Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 20:44
Had the same thing in a large central Qld town. When I told the attendant that I thought his pumps were out he asked me how many litres I thought it should have been. I told him and he only charged me for that amount. All very pleasant about it so probably new his pumps were wrong.
AnswerID: 538709

Reply By: Member Andys Adventures - Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 21:10

Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 21:10
You used the word (capacity), it means what it (will) hold not what it (can) hold. Lucky he had fuel for you.
We live in Australia, you have the right to choose, but with only 7 litres left, you would be walking a fair distance to the next pump.
Have you ever filled a jerry can 20lts, some cans hold 24lts before it runs out the top. And not one will be full at 20 lts. Same as your fuel tank..
AnswerID: 538710

Reply By: CSeaJay - Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 21:19

Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 21:19
I find it hard to understand why so many are attacking the original poster, on his opinion on how much fuel he really had, how much he thought he had, and how much his car ca or cannot hold.
Goodness, after a few months I knew exactly what my car was like, how much I could put in after the light came on, how much it had when theneedle was right on 0, and the like.
I am sure many of you are in the same position!
Or is this just another bash or be bashed thread, like so many and becoming more common
CJ
AnswerID: 538711

Follow Up By: disco driver - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 00:31

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 00:31
No, it's not a bash or be bashed thread.
The OP has accused the only fuel place in a country town of ripping him off, without any concrete evidence, just a feeling that his tank had only 7 litres in it.

That can be a fairly stupid thing to post on a public forum.

Disco.
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 07:52

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 07:52
Disco

Outline how he would get concrete evidence. He knows his vehicle, you do not.
You go to the same place and fill after using X number of litres and fill right to the top and see if it takes X or 8 % more XXXXX's.

Do a test and check the weights and measures, then you may have your concrete.

Would you notice 8% more?
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FollowupID: 823287

Reply By: John and Regina M - Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 23:13

Saturday, Sep 06, 2014 at 23:13
Yr assuming yr fuel gauge/fuel tank/fuel light are scientific instruments.
....about 7 litres...

What a crock.
AnswerID: 538713

Follow Up By: Ross M - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 08:00

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 08:00
If used to getting 12 bottles in a slab and two were not there, would you notice?
Just a small error.
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FollowupID: 823288

Reply By: scandal - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 07:05

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 07:05
This site really has gone to pits, I'm glad I didn't renew my membership, not to be associated with SOME of the people who frequent here now, then again I'm a goose for having a look every now and again.
Once upon a time, poster will put a thread on a particular topic, and get positive advise/opinion/feedback, now all you get is "google it", or what you SHOULD'VE done, nothing like what EO used to be.

The topic, my personal experience with my land cruiser that I've owned for 8 years is the fuel light comes on when it requires about 78-80 liters to fill up to the neck, sub tank is around 40 liters, this is very consistent with the way I have been operating the vehicle since I have owned it, I usually drive on the main tank until the light comes on, then switch over to the sub tank, once the light comes on with the sub tank, in ideal driving conditions I THINK I have approx 80 to 100ks range, I don't know for sure, I've have never had to try, how big are my tanks? I don't know for sure but is advertised as 90/45 liters, I haven't run out completely so I have never measured accurately to verify what they hold, BUT, what I do know is how much it should take when the light comes on, If i put in 85/87 liters at some random servo in a 1 horse town then I would also question the pump calibration, If you think that the inspectors regular inspect EVERY pump at EVERY servo and EVERY pump is 100% accurate, then you must also believe in the tooth fairy, yeah yeah yeah big penalties are in place with the weights and measures discrepancies but the authorities cannot be everywhere

The servo operator probably believes his pumps are accurate and then some tourist's rocks up and complains that the pumps are out, another tourist complaining he thinks, not the first one to complain and he becomes a bit hypersensitive , to get some one out there to check will cost him so the problem remains.
I can pretty much guarantee that tazbaz experience is not unique and bagging him for not have a fuel guage that is scientifically accurate only contributes negative sentiments that EO community has now become infiltrated with, it's sad to see.
Shane
AnswerID: 538717

Follow Up By: Slow one - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 07:32

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 07:32
Shane,
one of the problems is the op has already named and bagged the Windorah servo.

He may question the amount of fuel put in, but without having an accurate measuring device, I don't believe that is fair or proper to name the servo unless he has proof.

Just thinking outside the square. The locals will fill their 44gal drums there and I am sure they would notice instances of drums taking to much fuel.

I often see weights and measures at servos with their little cans checking the accuracy of the pumps, even temperature changes the amount of fuel delivered.

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Follow Up By: OBJ - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 08:26

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 08:26
Spot on Sandal. That is the reason why I now don't have membership either. Did for a while, but, like you, I now in by very rarely for a quick look, nothing more. Plenty of better options available.
OBJ
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Follow Up By: Sand Man (SA) - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 09:08

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 09:08
This is off topic but I have to comment on the two jokers bagging ExplorOz.

How come you ex members are still commenting on the Forum as registered visitors?
If you have better things to do, go and do them and leave the Forum to folk who accept both positive and negative comments on topics and pay the money to help support ExplorOz by being members.


Bill


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Follow Up By: scandal - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 09:52

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 09:52
Because there still is a lot of good here, EO overall is still very a good site, SOME and I repeat SOME people go on here and add nothing except negativity.
I am a former member but never used my membership status to lord over visitors like you are doing, and others have done.

Believe me, the are quite a few ex members that still lurk here that have the same sentiments as I do, lots never come back

I can use what ever forum I choose when I choose, If I was a financial member here would my comments hold more weight? others forums it doesn't seem to matter, but here it does, why?

I could have started my initial response a bit different, EO is a great site, some of the people that now frequent here have dragged it down, not EO's fault, I will continue being a visitor that wont change anytime soon.

Name calling was not on my agenda either Bill,

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Reply By: Tony F8 - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 07:31

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 07:31
Had the same thing happen at a servo in the Gulf, now people are rattling on about what a tank will hold and what was left in it ???. I know for certain the my sub tank on the 80 will not take 61lts know matter how hard I try, even got under the vehicle thinking I must have holed the sub tank, but no, just a dodgy calibrated pump. Servo owners reply was "where else ya gonna get fuel".
Similar thing was happening on the Barkly, years ago with the servo, it happened to burn to the ground, apparently some very disgruntled truckies.
Cheers.
Tony F8.
AnswerID: 538718

Reply By: mikehzz - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 09:22

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 09:22
This has come up on other forums as well. Just like it is possible to put more than 20 litres in a 20 litre jerry, it's also possible to put more than the supposed limit in your fuel tank by filling it to the neck. I've done it myself a number of times. My comment to the owner/operator is something like "Geez that's weird, I wasn't empty and I just put 75 litres in a 70 litre tank". His reaction will tell. If he seems like a crook then you don't go back. If he seems genuine (equipment can go out of alignment) then he will take it on board and check and rectify at a later date. I wouldn't expect to not pay for the fuel because as stated at the start, it's a fact that you can indeed put more fuel than listed in the tank and you really do not know accurately how much you had left. Just cop it on the chin because you can't know who is right.
AnswerID: 538723

Follow Up By: Shaker - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 19:46

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 19:46
I have a Jerry can that I know barely holds 20 litres, but they managed to get 23 litres in it at the southern end of the CSR!

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Reply By: Alloy c/t - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 09:32

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 09:32
Complain all you like , as another poster said 'where else you going to fuel up ' or as the owner operator of Rabbit Flat on the Tanami used to do if you complained about his fuel price , just turned the bowser off , locked it and walked away , would come back an hr or three later and ask if you would like some fuel , soon stopped tourists complaints about prices !! As for Windorah , for years and years the owner operator was actually totally blind , he would sit at the till and COUNT the exact 'clicks' the bowser made , he knew to the exact cent and litres the amount the bowser was reading , tourists[terrorists] would try and try to 'pull the wool ' over him all the time , he was never wrong ,,,,,, temperature - is a major factor of fuel delivery "quantity" ,,, this past summer where we had days on end of temps over 45c in the shade out our way it was necessary to actually put bags of ICE inside the petrol bowser on the pump motor and lines to cool things down as otherwise just trying to suck up vapour ….
AnswerID: 538724

Follow Up By: deserter - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 15:04

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 15:04
First time I went to that servo, the old fella was out the back fitting a tyre on a rim. He came out front and served petrol and it blew me away that he was blind !!!
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FollowupID: 823311

Reply By: Robyn R4 - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 10:10

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 10:10
We have a Kia Sorento too. It's amazing how much extra you can squeeze in when you're outback and a long way from the next petrol supplier!
We often squeeze in another 5+ litres (if I remember correctly) after it registers as full and does the first automatic click-off. 5 litres can be another 50-70km travelled, which is very important in the outback!
So the next time we fill up, are we filling a tank that had 70 litres before or did we get 75 litres into it (if that's possible by counting up the "neck"), or did we only have 65 litres?
Because of this extra space we can squeeze it into (hubby calls it "filling the hub caps"!) we've found it hard to work out how much we have remaining and just fill it up.
:)
PS: We love our Sorento but the after-market stuff drives us nuts.

AnswerID: 538726

Follow Up By: ian.g - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 17:00

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 17:00
Interesting to note that this is Birdsville Races weekend, there would have been hundreds of vehicles filled up here over the past few days, would be interesting to know how many others complained. I have always considered the family who now have the servo to be honest and reliable and IF there is a problem with bowser calibrations I am sure the complainer would have received good hearing
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FollowupID: 823318

Reply By: lindsay - Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 19:30

Sunday, Sep 07, 2014 at 19:30
Gee you mob rattle on things you know little about. I have a bowser for my own business and also a registered weighbridge. For a start the metering device on the bowser has a seal on it and when it is calibrated it is resealed. It is an offence to tamper with the device. My weighbridge had a compliance sticker missing of it during a recent inspection, I was not allowed to use it until it was replaced. In the case of the weighbridge if someone makes a complaint re accuracy and think they have been diddled then they can contact the authority and if our bridge is found to be out the fine used to be $20,000. I don't know the penalty for the bowser but would assume it would be simillar.
I must say though a few years ago we bought fuel at Carnegie station abd the fuel was dispensed out of an overhead tank with a farm fuel meter wich was not able to be calibrated. How accurate was it, who knows? But it is a long walk to the next joint.
Lindsay
AnswerID: 538749

Reply By: Honky - Monday, Sep 08, 2014 at 13:41

Monday, Sep 08, 2014 at 13:41
Twice I have tried to fill my vehicle once at Dubbo and the other at Bourke.
The Diesel had ran out but was still turning the meter.
I could hold the pump outside the fuel neck and it would just splutter but was racking up the dollars.
I approached the Service station and that only charged me for an estimated delivery amount.
So how does the meter read the input?

Honkhy
AnswerID: 538789

Reply By: The Landy - Monday, Sep 08, 2014 at 16:18

Monday, Sep 08, 2014 at 16:18
Whilst refraining from comment on the Original Posters situation I thought it might be worth putting 7-litres into context, and noting, anyone has a right to raise a concern with the proprietor of a business if you don't believe you are getting what you paid for...

There are strict rules governing the dispensing of fuel and the calibration of pumps and we place our trust in service stations to do the right thing.

I don’t think that trust is misplaced.

Many EO visitors and members are business people, and I’d be surprised if any would set-out to rip people off intentionally, and I think 99.9% of service station owners are of the same ilk!

The fuel variance involved here equates to a 10% variance in fuel consumption.

I understand the issue raised is about the fuel tank being filled beyond its capacity. But other things that are more likely to make fuel “disappear” include environmental factors such as road conditions, headwinds, and most importantly, a heavy foot-on-the-throttle...

My point?

On average, I expect that we get the amount of fuel we pay for, but perhaps there are occasions we don’t for whatever reason, whether it is a poorly calibrated pump or something more intentional .

But I suspect loss through incorrect fuel pump calibrations would pale insignificantly when lined up against other factors, such as the environment, or a “lead-foot” and the latter of which is squarely in our control.

Is this issue worth the airplay it has created?


Cheers, Baz – The Landy
AnswerID: 538795

Follow Up By: Slow one - Monday, Sep 08, 2014 at 16:59

Monday, Sep 08, 2014 at 16:59
Baz,
while I agree with you I believe the OP was saying his calculation is when the light comes on, then working around that for his figures, not anything to do with consumption.

I still believe the original post should never have been, as it has no calibrated evidence to support it.

Just to add. I have filled quite a few times in different vehicles right to the overflow point, because I needed the range or I wanted to keep the tank filled as high as I could get it due to leaving the vehicle unused for a while, this was just to stop oxidisation and water.

Have driven the vehicles maybe 1 to 3 k's to my home or camp and then put another 3 to 4 litres in. Guess there has been trapped air in the tank, that or I have been ripping myself off.

As for rheostats being accurate, they are until you introduce wear on the rheostat or high resistance in the connections.
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FollowupID: 823374

Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Tuesday, Sep 09, 2014 at 09:27

Tuesday, Sep 09, 2014 at 09:27
The thing is a litre is a litre is a litre NOT , with petrol ,temperature plays an important part , over a certain temp petrol expands before turning to vapour , if you want the closest correct amount of fuel per litre you fill in the cool of the morning rather than in the heat of the day. Its an anomaly that road going vehicles are fueled by litres yet aircraft are fuelled by WEIGHT which is far more accurate .
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