CONTAMINATED FUEL

Submitted: Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 00:30
ThreadID: 109683 Views:4454 Replies:11 FollowUps:46
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I received contaminated diesel, which damaged the fuel injector system in my 200 Series Land Cruiser. The repairs were going to cost $16,000.

When I was reading the forum, one member said to "check with your insurance company before paying for the repairs" because he believed it was an accident not a mechanical problem. I checked with my insurance company and they agreed to pay the bill. If it wasn't for the forum, I would have been out of pocket $16,000.

I just hope this might help other members.

Peter G7
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Reply By: Troopy8thwonderoftheworld - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 05:54

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 05:54
That's great news for you Pete
Can you name the company ?
AnswerID: 539779

Follow Up By: Members - Bow & Nan - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 06:53

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 06:53
NRMA paid for my 200 series, $19400
"Work interferes with living"

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FollowupID: 825428

Reply By: Wayne's 60 - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 08:50

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 08:50
Hi Peter,

Just wondering what area you purchased the fuel from and while the insurance coverage aspect is good, knowing where the contaminated fuel came from may help others to avoid the damage.

BTW have your reported this incident to the proper authorities?

Cheers,
Wayne & Sally.

AnswerID: 539782

Reply By: Ross M - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 09:24

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 09:24
If you had a fuel injection problem, the question to ask yourself is why didn't the filtering system do it's job.
Apart from contamination by solvents in the fuel. the system should detect water ie a contaminant and prevent it from going further. It should also warn you of it's presence if accumulated to any substantial amount.

The filter should also trap particles of dirt and rubbish, also called contaminants. It is designed to stop that too.

Toyota DO NOT change the filters regularly and leave them there until a warning occurs.
Therefore the filter can be there a long time and begin to degrade itself AND will block up unexpectedly at the worst possible time for you.
Failure to regularly change filters according to distance brings the the possibility of fuel system failure ever closer and closer.

Unfortunately most people can only go on what the repair people tell them and are forced to believe it. With proper filter care/changing, and/or the fitting of an additional pre filter to add some insurance to the system it can improve your chances.

It is good the insurance covered the failure (anything can fail of course) but just having the insurance backup isn't much worth if you rely on the vehicle for traveling etc.

With proper filtering, changed regularly to ensure the filter performs it's designed functions and possibly with an auxiliary filter you shouldn't have any problems apart from Murphy's involvement in our lives.
AnswerID: 539785

Follow Up By: garrycol - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 11:10

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 11:10
Normal filtering, while good at stopping particulates will not take out water and if you go to such a small microron filter to do that, fuel may not pass through either and/ormay also set up a pressure issue in the fuel line that in itself can set off other faults.

Aftermarket water traps (these are not filters) work well and sound an alarm well before water can get to the injection pump but standard water traps are too small to give enough time to switch off in most circumstances.

By the time you hear the alarm, or got a display, comprehended what the issue is - look for somewhere to pull over (you know you will be doing 100kph) stop and switch off it will be too late. The standard offerings may work OK in a test but not so good in real life
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 14:14

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 14:14
Having a brand new filter is not going to change the outcome if you get a gut full of water. Most of the newer CRD vehicles have warning buzzers now if water is detected in the system
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FollowupID: 825441

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 15:15

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 15:15
Great to see we are jumping to conclusions with no real data....... just happy some are not law enforcement offices.

Alby and garrycol (sort of correct) are correct and with the number of people active on this forum who have CRD engine vehicles who also travel I would expect a few more REAL post regarding this issue then the less then a handful who have raised REAL life concerns over the last 12 months.

A blocked filter will not cause a failure and the standard filter works well for what it is designed for .........

All vehicles with CRD injection have a filtering system much the same and Toyota are not the only ones who see some problems from time to time.

Toyota seem to have more failures then other manufactures but it might have something to do with Toyota CRD outselling other manufactures CRD vehicles with more Toyotas operating in harsh environments or used for long distance touring.

It's tough when you have 4 of the highest selling vehicles and 3 with the same engine in your line up.

Do you and can you honestly say Toyota and other manufactures are sitting on the fence not wanting to rectify a so called known issue hoping it will go away........ DON'T THINK SO.

BTW we have and had 7 Toyota CRD vehicles operating in regional and remote ares that have never had a problem.





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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 09:03

Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 09:03
Here we go again...trying to tell people this simply does not happen...well it does....and more frequently than YOU want to admit.

It may not be all that often, but when a common rail diesel gets a good dose of fuel contamination it cost thousands to repair and its not like it can be fixed on the road side or by the mechainic in the next town.

The fact is that fuel contamination is a very real issue and the cost and consequence make make the total risk profile high inspite of the moderately low incidence.

cheers
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FollowupID: 825529

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 09:20

Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 09:20
Did not say anything about it does not happen...... just simply it does not happen as much as some seem to think.

As I said....
"with the number of people active on this forum who have CRD engine vehicles who also travel I would expect a few more REAL post regarding this issue then the less then a handful who have raised REAL life concerns over the last 12 months."

Not only on this forum but other like minded forums.

I know why there is such a small number of people posting with problems like this on forums compared with the number of people on these forums who have CRD vehicles....... they are simply to embarrassed to admit it and would sooner keep quiet....... That's right is't it Bantam...... simple to embarrassed to admit it aren't they!



The only people how think it's more of a problem then it is are the ones against CRD and who don't own one.


Ohhh and I forgot....... non CRD vehicles just simply don't break down do they......
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FollowupID: 825531

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 22:01

Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 22:01
Firstly this is a pretty small forum......as far as foums go...probably less that 100 active posters......hardly statistically significant.

Not everybody posts about everything that happens to them nor are the majority of CRD owners members of 4wd forums......if it was so..we would have 4wd forums with tens of thousands of active members.....to my knoweledge There is a not a 4wd fourm in the country that busts the 15 000 members mark.

Then ther is the fact that the vast majority of CRD vehicles..like the majority of 4wds period never go off the blacktop and hardly ever leave the city...so they buy their fuel in places you would not expect contamination.

Damn right I don't own a CRD vehicle...and it does not break down....among my friends and family there are probably 15 old school diesel vehices...with high milage...and they just don't break down...well not with fuel system issues anyway.

My count now is three people I know directly that have had expensive CRD fuel system failures due to fuel contamination..it does happen..and it is far from uncommon.

cheers
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FollowupID: 825586

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, Oct 05, 2014 at 13:25

Sunday, Oct 05, 2014 at 13:25
You have to just learn to live with it....... many years ago's diesels were only used by people who had a real need for them and petrol was king.

These days with more and more diesels hitting the road in bigger numbers driven by everyone and anyone with many more accustom to the school run then off roading I would say the failure rate may to some seem more now then before....... the fact is maybe 20 years ago 1 it 70 families may of had had a diesel powered vehicle whereby now it may be 1 in 10 or greater.

Remember that word "MAY".

People forget the high maintenance cost associated with the older diesels with shorter more costly service intervals and injector cleans and pump overhaul/recalibration ever 200-300,000 kilometers.

Many would go for longer because the owner could not see the black smoke and excessive fuel consumption..... this was the norm.

There are many many CRD that don't give any problems.

I think it's not a fact of people being concerned about failures in general but more to do with they can not get their head around CRD in general and are scared of the technology.

I am not against old technology but through the trade and or customer base we see more diesels then ever before with only a few giving problems.

No matter what forum it is the number of people who have CRD vehicles and those with problems is very very small number.

It doesn't matter how many members a forum have, if you broke it down to percentages all forums would be about the same.

I know your hate CRD and most new technology with a passion but it's not as bad as one may think and sooner or later you will have to step up to the technology....... only then you may find out the truth.
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FollowupID: 825621

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, Oct 05, 2014 at 17:12

Sunday, Oct 05, 2014 at 17:12
I know your hate CRD and most new technology with a passion but it's not as bad as one may think and sooner or later you will have to step up to the technology....... only then you may find out the truth.

Well that goes to show how little you actually read my posts...and it shows you know very little about me.

I deal with technology every day.....some of it bleading edge.....because i see so much technolgy I can spot an imature technolgy a very long way off.....likewise I can spot a technology that is being sold not because it is better but because it makes the seller more money or costs the seller less money.

I deal with installations where the previous contractor has specifically used technology far more complicated than necessary, because they can sell it for more...... the customer can not even adjust it themselves and it makes it harder for the the customer to change service providers.




It took several decades for the pertol engine to recover its reliabliity and efficiency after ploution gear was introduced in the 70s.....some of the early polution gear motors where absolute dogs and power was down as much as 20% on the previous model.

Not so long ago petrol fuel injection was a specialist field....finding someone who you would trust with your injected vehicle was a seriuos task....and yeh petrol injection has been round in production since the 60's and 70's the Triumph PI comes to mind.....its only been in the last 15 years that petrol injection and electronic engine management has become pretty well normal....yeh and some of those early EFI motors where dogs too.

These days any half interested mechanic has at least basic fuel injection knoweledge and test equipment to suit.....even serious back yarders have injection test rigs at home and reprogramme their own ECUs

As it stands Common Rail Diesel is NOT a mature technology and has a number of very expensive issues.

The biggest is fuel contamination and the inadequate fuel filtering provided by the manufacturer.

And the passenger car owner ( that includes 4wds) is getting the rough end of the pineapple.

Go and look at earth moving equipment and heavy transport......their common rail diesel motors are in general far better provided with fuel filtering....large capacity, two and three stage fuel filters are not uncommon....factory standard.....and the warranty service and claim attitude is far more accommodating...it would want to be when a rings and bearings job is worth more than a new landcruser.

I don't hate CRD.....I just dont trust it because I believe it is not mature and our diesel fuel quality AS PUMPED is not as good as the CRD vehicles are designed for.

As for my other pet hobby horse....AGM batteries....well again another technology that is being sold for technologies sake and because the seller can......not because it is necessarily better in the application.

A lot of sellers of AGM are only battery sellers because AGM exists......they can only exists because AGM ships and stores NOT as dangerous goods.

It would require a much larger operation to support the transport and storage of a wet cell battery technology, that must be shipped as dangerous goods.

OH..and AGM sells for twce the prive and there is twice the profit in every sale.

When all the advantages and improvements in technology that permit AGM are available in wet cell batteries at half the price and with better temperature tollerance......AGM is not the best choice in a great many situations.

cheers
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FollowupID: 825632

Follow Up By: Slow one - Sunday, Oct 05, 2014 at 20:30

Sunday, Oct 05, 2014 at 20:30
Bantam,
WHAT! when a ring and bearing job is worth more than a new landcruser. An in frame rebuild costing more than a NEW land cruiser, maybe a 10 year old base model one. Maybe one of the AGM batteries leaked and corroded the whole engine. LOL. Then again you can buy a new truck engine for less than a new landcruiser base model. Then again how did the fuel contamination destroy the bearings and pistons. Then again what have AGM batteries got to do with it.

Gotta get back to the football as 1/2 time is nearly over. Go the Bunnies.

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FollowupID: 825643

Follow Up By: Patrol22 - Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 10:27

Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 10:27
You can count me among those who have had fuel contamination problems through water contamination of diesel. My ute has been off the road 3 times now having picked up contaminated fuel.....not in remote or small towns but in major centres. Once in Kempsey NSW, once in Queanbeyan NSW, and the other in Fyshwick ACT. Thankfully, I was able to stop well before any major damage was done as I have a 'Water Watch' alarm system fitted. But in each case the tank had to be removed and the fuel system upstream of the rail flushed.....cost of between $800 and $1200 each time. Only one of the fuel suppliers came to the part with the cost of the fix....and that was the Fyshwick ACT servo....a Shell Coles Express. The other flatly denied it could possibly come from their tanks.
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FollowupID: 825672

Follow Up By: hydroxyl - Wednesday, Oct 15, 2014 at 13:06

Wednesday, Oct 15, 2014 at 13:06
Hi Folks,
There is now available a technology (combination of olde and new) to alleviate all of these problems mentioned to do with fuel contamination and exhaust emissions.
Utilising the suspended water in ANY liquid fuel this device (not additive or filter) destroys any microbial growth (Diesel/Fuel Bug) and it's detritus purifying the fuel in-line thus 'drying' the fuel to below 40ppm thereby cutting down on the carbon produced in the combustion chamber and reducing considerably the particulate emissions and odour from the exhaust.
This also leads to cleaner filters and engine oil and cuts down on the top end clatter in diesel motors fitted.
It aint rocket science but it's close.
Cheers, Hydroxl
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FollowupID: 826238

Reply By: The Landy - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 11:29

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 11:29
From an insurance perspective most comprehensive policies have it covered under “accidental damage”. Check your PDS if it doesn’t exclude it, it is fair to say it is included.

And this is the thing about comprehensive insurance and PDS documentation – if they don’t cover something they need to tell you that. If it isn’t excluded, it is included.

Most comprehensive policies state the cover will not insure for mechanical breakdown, however the introduction of contaminated fuel through no fault of your own is usually classed as “accidental damage”. And not to be confused with using the wrong fuel type, many will not cover this.

You should keep a full record and all receipts of fuel purchased, as it may not be one specific instance that causes the problem, but potentially a build-up. At least with proof of purchase the insurance company can pursue the provider(s) if they choose.

And where possible, purchase from the same outlet or at least the same brand.

Cheers, Baz – The Landy
AnswerID: 539792

Follow Up By: The Landy - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 11:40

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 11:40
"And this is the thing about comprehensive insurance and PDS documentation – if they don’t cover something they need to tell you that. If it isn’t excluded, it is included".

To qualify this, fuel contamination could be a "grey" area of the policy that would require representation and evidence on your part that it should be classed as accidental damage. Having receipts of all purchases will go a long way to achieving a positive outcome.

Cheers, Baz - The Landy
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FollowupID: 825436

Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 14:07

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 14:07
When I am hunting around for an insurance policy I ask if contaminated fuel is covered, some of the bigger name insurance companies do not cover it so it is worth while checking with your current policy holder.
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FollowupID: 825439

Follow Up By: The Landy - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 15:58

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 15:58
Hi Alby

It has the potential for being in the "grey" zone, but if they intend to not or never cover this type of occurrence they need to say so in the PDS documentation.

The absence of it will tend to indicate that they will look at such a claim, so what is important is the ability to demonstrate you take all steps possible to avoid it, and secondly that you provide them with someone they can have recourse to...

So keep those fuel dockets!

Cheers
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FollowupID: 825451

Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 16:26

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 16:26
Hi Bazz

Yes my PDS document specifically says that it is covered and when I enquired about other insurers some have advised me that they definitely do not cover contaminated fuel so I assume their PDS reflects that position.

Yes I buy all of my fuel with a credit card so that I have a reliable paper trail should I need it and where possible only buy from the larger corporate style fuel outlets.

The other issue is that you may not know you have received contaminated fuel for several fill ups after the event as it may take that long for your fuel pick up to draw up enough water into your bowl to set off your sensor alarm

Cheers
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FollowupID: 825453

Reply By: Emerging I.T. - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 13:04

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 13:04
It still amazes me why these particulate filters aren't being effective? The fact that an OEM vehicle filtration system can still allow $16k worth of damage is a worry. Personally I only use Caltex Vortex Premium Diesel as it is a better diesel fuel, stay away from the no name Service Stations if possible. Great outcome on your insurance but your premium will go up.
AnswerID: 539794

Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 14:09

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 14:09
I only run with the big name suppliers as well but using a premium fuel is not going to make any difference if it is contaminated with water at some point in the process.
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FollowupID: 825440

Follow Up By: Emerging I.T. - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 14:16

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 14:16
Yes agreed but my point is really you run less risk of getting water contamination with the reputable fuel stations imo.

Using better fuel is a form of preventative maintenance along with proper servicing etc but water contamination is a killer for CRD.

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FollowupID: 825442

Follow Up By: garrycol - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 14:27

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 14:27
With a couple of exceptions all basic diesel is the same as it can brewed st the same place and distributed to different companies- only differences is the additives that fuel companies add to the generic brew to to make it their own.

In Aust there is nothing wrong with any of the fuel provided by the oil companies but how it is stored is the issue.

Branded outlets may or may not maintain their garages better than independents but who is to know. Most people I know who have had issues have bought from branded service stations.
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FollowupID: 825443

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 15:23

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 15:23
Maybe because the problem isn't as common as one may think.
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FollowupID: 825449

Follow Up By: The Landy - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 15:53

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 15:53
And to Garry's point...

Water doesn't just come from a "bad" tank of fuel, it will condensate in the tanks overnight, created by differences in temperatures.

Filtering as you put it into your vehicle tanks, along with a water separator are all good measures to assist in preventing this occurrence.

Active prevention is your greatest ally.

Cheers, Baz - The Landy
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FollowupID: 825450

Reply By: Steve in Kakadu - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 15:40

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 15:40
Perhaps this link might help fuel contamination compensation
AnswerID: 539800

Reply By: Member - John (Vic) - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 16:34

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 16:34
Since the forum/site has been such good value, perhaps you may consider becoming a financial member now :)

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Follow Up By: Member - Trouper (NSW) - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 17:59

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 17:59
Well said John.......How about it Peter G7 ?????
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Reply By: Member - Odog - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 18:25

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 18:25
Suppose everyone's premiums will increase to cover fuel contamination, it's a wonder they haven't built in to the premiums if you insure a crd vehicle... Or they already have, and not told anyone..
Have also heard that, while people extend breathers on diffs and so on.. Not many realize you also have a breather on the fuel tank, which is over looked, have heard this can also cause dramas with contamination..
Cheers Odog
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AnswerID: 539807

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 22:39

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 22:39
Yeap.... The same as us CRD vehicle owners having to pay increased premiums to prop up the people who have older vehicles with no electronic safety aids like ABS, Vehicle stability control and Traction control......... Plus the fact older vehicles cause more damage to other vehicles involved.

I'm with you, I hate paying increased premiums for something I don't own.
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FollowupID: 825477

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 09:08

Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 09:08
increased premiums to prop up the people who have older vehicles with no electronic safety aids like ABS, Vehicle stability control and Traction control...

What an absolute crock.

Off you go and get a quote to insure an older vehicle with out the nanny features and then get a quote to insure yours.

BETya the older vehicle will be cheaper to insure.

cheers
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FollowupID: 825530

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 09:54

Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 09:54
Actually Bantam...... it's been proven that electronic safety aids do in fact lower accidents, damage and injury.

Again do you think the vehicle manufactures are just fitting it and the governments stipulating it for the hell of it.

It's a no brainer really to understand premiums of newer vehicles are more to insure then older vehicles....... this may have something to do with pay out costs and repair costs versus write off.

In most cases you pay on average 50% more on a premium to insure a vehicle 3-4 time the value.

Here is an example....
1994 Landcruiser TD GXL with a value of 11,500 and a premium of $434.00.
2012 Ranget XL 3.2 with a value of $40,000 and a premium of $671.00

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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 11:30

Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 11:30
yeh more smoke and mirrors that have nothing to do with the argument.

you are arguing that the those without the modern safety aids are causing premiums to rise and those that have them are subsidising the rest......that is just complete rubbish and you have no figures to prove it.

Insurance premiums have more to do with the cost of reparing vehicles than anything else and those later model vehicles are more expensive to repair.

In the vast majority of accident claims...the "at fault driver" would heve been helped little by the modern driver aids, because the cause has been inattention, failing to adhere to road rules, simply not looking or other "nut behind the wheel causes".

In high speed crashes, the modern vehicles are getting out of controll later and are leaving the road or coliding at much higher speeds.

Careles and imprudent drivers are pushing their vehicles furher and depending on the advanced safety features and thus eroding the inherant safety benifits.

Yeh there are all sorts of surveys and such that "prove" that the modern nanny cars are safer.......but those vehicles are newer( their owners therefor more carefull) and there are fewer on the road...AND..those surveys are conducted by those who have a vested interest in the outcome of the survey.

Drivers of late model vehices ARE NOT subsidising those with older vehicles.




As for the incidence of fuel contamination in common rail diesels.......we will all point and laugh when it happens to you......if you will admit it and post it.

Even if you don't admit it.....I will be there in your subconcuious...........> HAR HA.

cheers
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FollowupID: 825545

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 11:46

Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 11:46
Simply adding to oldbaz's comments and putting my views forward...... Sorry I forgot you are always right and everone else is wrong and until you came along their was no argument...... Just a discussion.

How do you know so much about everything ever invented and stuff not even invented not forgetting life in general..... With your knowledge and expertise why are you hanging around on a forum with plebs like me.

The world is at you beckoning......

I'm hoping if I live to 197 years old I will have 3/10 of your knowledge and wisdom.
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Follow Up By: mikehzz - Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 12:17

Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 12:17
I haven't really heard that before...I didn't know that drivers are becoming dangerous because their cars are too safe! Road accident statistics have been falling in actual raw numbers, per number of registered vehicles and per head of population for over 30 years so it doesn't seem that there is much "erosion of inherent safety benefits" going on but there you go, it's only statistical manipulation by vested interests on a world wide scale aimed at making cars more complicated. Who'd have thunk it?
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FollowupID: 825549

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 15:11

Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 15:11
Simply adding to oldbaz's comments and putting my views forward...... Sorry I forgot you are always right and everone else is wrong and until you came along their was no argument...... Just a discussion.


mate I don't have to be particularly wise to recognise a rediculous ststement like ..."I'm with you, I hate paying increased premiums for something I don't own."

When the who, premise is simply not bassed on any sort of fact.

First you come out with a realy strong post infeering that the whole fuel contamination and CRD thing is a beat up then you complain about paying for someone elses insurance.

They where both rediculous before I came to the discussion....and that is not may fault.

cheers
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FollowupID: 825555

Follow Up By: Slow one - Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 15:38

Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 15:38
mikehzz,
I have been thunking along the same line as yourself now that all has been revealed. Who would have thunked that this manipulation could have occurred right under our noses. I am now taking actions to fix it and enlighten others of this world

I have just been to Bunnings and returned my wide wheeled pneumatic tyred wheelbarrow with polyethylene tub because of being manipulated by the dark forces of our world. I am now using my super heavy narrow steel wheeled 1942 barrow and once again honing my balancing skills. Who would have thought that the same group of nameless people would have also persuaded the airforces of this world to remove pilots from jet fighters by the grand old age of 28 because they have lost the edge and reflexes.

I will now have to put some water in my tank to show the problem is a major one. I will have to do this as after many, many years of driving vehicles both big and small, I have only encountered water a couple of times, these occasions came about through the manual handling of the fuels in question. Clever those with vested interests being able to place smoke and mirrors in my head.

Yes it happens but so does bleep e, now who would have thunk that.


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FollowupID: 825556

Follow Up By: Member - Odog - Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 16:00

Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 16:00
I guess in a few years time, if you get a " bad fill " ... And repairs are going to be around market value... Just rite it off! Hard if repairs could vary so much, have seen $12k-$20k... How will the insurance company guess, without " looking " .. Don't want to start anymore arguments, just sit it out n watch. Cheers
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 21:38

Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 21:38
Good to know savety aids don't lower crash rates...... Tommorrow I am going to disconnect my ABS brakes and find out how to disable stability control.

Then I am going to send a letter to the vehicle manufactures asking for a refund on gizmos I don't need that has be obviously been proven to not reduce the chance of accidents.

Last time a looked..... 100 kph in and old car and 100 kph in a new car is still 100 kph.

Looks like some of us have been getting ripped off and had mind altering therapy to make us think safety aids are a good idea........ God......talk about feeling silly and stupid ...... I know better next time a car salesman tells me about the safety benifits of a new car....... Do I have news for him.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 22:05

Saturday, Oct 04, 2014 at 22:05
Well there is common sence and reason for you.

cheers
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, Oct 05, 2014 at 13:07

Sunday, Oct 05, 2014 at 13:07
No just the "Bantam Theory".
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FollowupID: 825618

Reply By: Ron N - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 20:04

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 20:04
As already stated, it's the method and type of fuel storage that is where the main problems start.
Many older servos or poorly-constructed servos have underground tank breathers that are located at levels where floodwaters can enter the tank via the breather.

Floodwaters carry mud as well as water. Once floodwater enters a tank it will always be suspect.
Good servos have breathers on standpipes that are at least 2.5M-3.0M above the ground.

Corrosion is also a huge problem with underground tanks in servos. There are still many old underground fuel tanks around that were installed in the 1950's and 1960's - when tanks were merely coated with bitumen and dropped into a hole in the ground.
Acid soils and groundwater eats under the bitumen coating and into the tanks metal, and they start to let fuel out or let groundwater in.

Here in the West, the Mines Dept (now the Dept of Mines and Petroleum) controls the installation of, and oversees leakage from, underground fuel tanks.

The leakage of excessive amounts of fuel from underground storages (particularly in the sandy soils of the coastal sandplain around Perth, led to some heartburn in the DoMaP when high-level carcinogens such as benzene (from petrol) were found to be contaminating underground aquifers in the aforesaid coastal plain.

As a result, detection spears are inserted around every underground fuel installation, and as soon as leakage is detected, servo owners are directed to remove and replace the tanks immediately.
They can opt to just remove them if they wish to cease using the site as a servo.

In inland areas where the soils are usually heavy or gravelly clays, leakage is less of a problem, but the corrosion problem is still there.

Servo owners are obliged to report any leaking tanks found, under environmental contamination laws - but there's no requirement for them to report on any tank that has contaminated fuel in it.

Nowadays, new tanks are installed within an impermeable geo-textile liner which is filled with coarse sand before the tank is installed (in the sand), and permanent spears are inserted into the sand between the tank and liner, to pick up any leakage.
If any leakage is found, that tank is taken out of service immediately.

Double-walled fibreglass tanks are becoming an industry standard - but we have a long way to go before we can replace all steel underground storage with fibreglass tanks.
In addition, a fibreglass tank is still prone to fuel contamination from damaged piping, or through water getting in through tank vents - although they are far better than steel tanks.

Envirotank

Tank installation and other associated news and developments in this field is overseen by APICA (Australian Petroleum Industry Contractors and Suppliers Association).

APICSA

It's generally hard to find out when the tanks of the servo you're dealing with were last replaced (unless you saw them being put in!) - but as a good rule of thumb, if the tanks have been replaced in the last 20 years, there should be no problems with fuel contamination.
The last 20 years is where the installation of underground tanks has really been "smartened up" with tighter controls and better designs and layouts.

Most of the contaminated tanks are the ones in the older seaside suburbs, and the ones in old country servos, where they are possibly 40 and 50 years old.

Even when I was travelling around Europe a couple of years ago, I received strict instructions from car hire companies to avoid specific servos. I got the impression it was because of contaminated fuel - of course, it could have been because of fuel substitution rackets (such as the toluene racket of a few years ago, here).

Of course, it's not the first time that a tanker has accidentally dumped petrol into a diesel tank, despite clear markings. It even happens in refineries.
I had a fuel distributor who told me many years ago he'd bungled a fuel refill and mixed serious amounts of diesel and petrol.
He just pumped the tank out and put it back into his bulk diesel depot tank to reduce the dilution.
AnswerID: 539812

Follow Up By: Axle - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 21:23

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 21:23
Hi Ron,..Don't let to much knowledge out around here it falls on deaf ears..lol., But mentioning old fuel storage tanks, our local servo got to the stage where the the tanker could only half fill the diesel tank,.. the other half was water!!.... It was like that for years,..Diesel floats on water No probs...LOL.


Cheers Axle.
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FollowupID: 825469

Follow Up By: Ron N - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 21:54

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 21:54
Axle, I don't understand how that could happen, it sounds like a fair bit of legendary BS to me.

The reason being, the suction spear for the pump on underground tanks is screwed in place, and it reaches the bottom of the tank (see the Envirotank link above for diagram) - and it sucks from the bottom of the tank.
This is what causes all the fuel contamination, because all the crap settles on the bottom.

For a pump on an underground tank to be able to just suck the diesel off the top of any water in the tank, it would need to have a floating suction foot valve that floated on top of the fuel.

I do not know of - nor have I ever seen - any underground fuel tank that uses or used a system like this.

I have seen some blokes in a country town doing some digging with a backhoe, in a forecourt of an old industrial buidling, only to find a gusher! (of water).

It turned out that the place originally had an underground fuel tank - but the pumps were removed long ago - and the tank filled with water to prevent collapse!

When the backhoe bucket hit the old tank, it released a gusher of water, making the blokes pack themselves, thinking they'd hit a water main!

Cheers, Ron.
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FollowupID: 825473

Follow Up By: Axle - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 22:09

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 22:09
Ron you are correct in your thinking,.. But what goes on at servos'

especially older ones, and different owners have different ideas, believe me!!....Many a tank I have pulled out....will say know more.


Cheers Axle.
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FollowupID: 825474

Follow Up By: Slow one - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 22:27

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 22:27
Above ground tanks are the greatest source of water contamination through heating and cooling causing condensation, trust me.
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FollowupID: 825475

Follow Up By: Ron N - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 22:41

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 22:41
Slow one - Yes, that's true, even more so if tanks are low on fuel and there's more room for moist air.
That's the reason you always refuel tractors and equipment at sundown when you knock off, so there's less room for condensation build-up.

However .. above-ground tanks have a simple solution to condensation build-up - they can be easily drained (and should be), on a regular basis! - just like your air compressor tank!

However, trying to extract a build-up of contamination from an underground tank is nearly impossible.

Underground tanks rarely suffer from a great deal of condensation build-up, because they're always at a very steady 15 deg in the ground - and that temperature never alters more than a degree or two, and over a lengthy period, when it does.

It requires a substantial variation in temperatures on a daily basis, plus extremely moist air, to enable sizeable amounts of condensation to build up, in above-ground tanks.
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FollowupID: 825478

Reply By: Shaker - Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 21:32

Thursday, Oct 02, 2014 at 21:32
They won't cover Ethanol damage, particularly in boats!

AnswerID: 539823

Reply By: hydroxyl - Wednesday, Oct 15, 2014 at 11:14

Wednesday, Oct 15, 2014 at 11:14
For anybody with a contaminated fuel problem, be it water suspended in the fuel or microbial growth developing in the fuel (both petrol and diesel, bio fuels even more susceptible to water) there has become available a solution (not a biocide or a filter) to this problem with a new combination of olde technologies. This device utilizes the suspended water in the fuel to destroy the microbes and by doing so takes the water content of the fuel to below 40ppm. Which is 'dry' in anybody's terms.
They have been successfully utilised and PROVEN both here, recently, and in N.Z. for 6 years and have the ability to totally protect your engine on land or sea from 'sh--ty fuel' ever again !
I have one fitted to my 2002 Ford 'Marlin' ute with 5ltr V8 (petrol) doing around
10 lt >100ks. Also takes out a lot of the top end 'clatter' from diesels.
Hope this helps.
Hydroxyl
AnswerID: 540387

Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Wednesday, Oct 15, 2014 at 14:34

Wednesday, Oct 15, 2014 at 14:34
what is it?
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FollowupID: 826241

Follow Up By: Slow one - Wednesday, Oct 15, 2014 at 16:55

Wednesday, Oct 15, 2014 at 16:55
Alby,
Maybe the screen name hydroxyl is the clue.
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FollowupID: 826256

Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Wednesday, Oct 15, 2014 at 17:02

Wednesday, Oct 15, 2014 at 17:02
I initially thought that and googled the name but didn't find a relevant lead
Did I miss something?
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FollowupID: 826257

Follow Up By: Slow one - Wednesday, Oct 15, 2014 at 17:33

Wednesday, Oct 15, 2014 at 17:33
I just had a look as well but I still think it is tied in somehow.

I couldn't find anything either. Maybe you just mix some stp with a smudge of wynns and then shaken gently over a hot stove with a Lucas fuel mileage extender. LOL.

1
FollowupID: 826258

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Oct 15, 2014 at 23:28

Wednesday, Oct 15, 2014 at 23:28
sounds like a post from a professional blogger to me.

No doubt we will hear more if the admin don't squash this guy like a bug.

cheers
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FollowupID: 826279

Follow Up By: hydroxyl - Thursday, Oct 16, 2014 at 22:30

Thursday, Oct 16, 2014 at 22:30
Hi Folks,
I'm no 'blogger' ? don't know what one is ! but many years ago I used to be a Logger in Taupo in NZ swinging a saw for a living.
I'm new to this forum scene and don't quite grasp the rules yet, trade names etc, BUT you're right about the Fuel Purifyer, google 'H' again read what it sez and apply this technology to a compact in-line system for the fuel feed, pre off engine filter, colour it BLUE and you'd be getting very close. Cheers Hydroxyl
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FollowupID: 826336

Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Friday, Oct 17, 2014 at 05:46

Friday, Oct 17, 2014 at 05:46
You really need to pay for some Google adwords, if you are going to come on here trying to flog your product you will need to make it easier to find than that
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FollowupID: 826342

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