The Future Has Arrived For Perth WA Drivers

You can still do this with modern cars, just take the "MAIN" relay or fuse out.

No MAIN fuse, car no worky!

Ron
agree 100%
cheers
Flighty

Road Warrior - Yes, but the problem with current model vehicles is that shutting off the power to everything immediately means you have to reset clocks, the radio will stop working until you re-enter the PIN code, auto trannies lose the settings they've learned, the remote locking system won't work, ECU's can forget fault codes and other diagnostic information - and with some Controller Area Network (CAN) electrical systems, some modules may go into a default mode, standby mode or sleep mode - which may require pinging or reprogramming with a scan tool to restore normal function.
There's probably a dozen other things will create problems if power is lost to them, that I can't think of right now.
In fact, so many new vehicles are so electronically "touchy", you now often need to supply an external power source to the battery cables, before you change out a battery.

Totally agree. The old Unlawful Use of a Motor Vehicle (UUMV) along with break and enter of dwellings use to be treated as very serious offences. Now the courts treat them as minor, especially UUMV offences. Just sit in court one day and listen how the offender’s solicitor or barrister argues their case and then the magistrate or judge will do all they can to look after the poor offender. The victim is largely ignored. The onus is always back on us to put systems in place to prevent the crime rather then also making the offenders pay for their crimes. I know, this means making offenders responsible for their actions, what am I thinking!!! Kevin

Punishing kids when they first start will also help.
I know of one kid that got caught when he was 14. Slap on the wrist, don't do it again.
8 more times he got caught with same punishment from magistrate.

Then he turned 18.
Got caught, and locked up.

Ron N there is always that old trick of plugging a 9 volt battery into the car's cigarette lighter so that the ECU doesn't lose its memory and the various EEPROM's in the car don't either. A 9 volt battery connected to a ciggie plug and voila, keeps enough voltage in the system when the battery is disconnected or the main fuse is out

Ron, what we need are courts that will treat the perps as criminals rather than victims (of poor upbringing, alcohol/substance abuse, etc etc) and sentence them accordingly. Most times, the damp from the wet lettuce hasn't dried by the time they are nicking their next ride. I used to work in a building next to a childrens' court. Staright after the lettuce sentence, they would wander into our (underground) carpark looking for a "ride home".

unfortunatly Ron its a political hot potatoe
the governments already in the news for its high rate of imprisonment of Aboriginals
if penaltys for car theft are increased that situation will only become much worse

Get Outmore, have you been chatting with Dan Quayle? (ex US VP).

Cheers

Mark

Oh... a kill switch or simple car imobiliser remains THE most cost efective vehicle security there is.

Back in the day I knew a bloke who had a hot little mini.....they where easy to steal.
His only security measure was a simple toggle switch in series with the electric fuel pump.

The psycology was...the vehicle could be started by the usual means with minimal effort and damage...but a couple of minutes later the vehicle would conk out.
The car is now in the middle of the road, probably somewhere more public and the crim will simply walk away than look for the problem.

AND it worked.
His mini was indeed stolen.......it was found abandoned in the middle of a city intersection.

often some of the simplest measures work the best.

cheers

Bantam - The problem is - there ARE smart crims, and technology that jumps ahead in leaps and bounds constantly helps the crims.
The police are often struggling to keep up with new technology that crims find to use for their devious ends.
I'll wager the car thieves are working right now on how to get around this latest scheme.

As to the blokes who got caught with your mates bobcat and truck, where do you think they are now, and where would you imagine they're at, with their new, increased anti-theft GPS knowledge?

Crims will now wear good facial disguises as SOP because they know cameras are around - they will find ways to disable or block GPS trackers - or they will simply avoid the GPS-equipped items and go for the stuff without GPS. Locking them up for extended periods solves all this.

Serioulsy most crims are not very smart.

The problem is that those implimenting the security measures are neither committed nor smart.

ALmost without exception security and crime detection equipment is installed as a minimum cost option and by those doing so, at minimum cost and maximum profit........the security companies pay peanuts and get monkeys........it is a grudge purchase and the whole market plays to it.

AND that is the problem...and the reason I walked away from security contracting years ago.

I proved that I can install security systems that are very hard to get past and do not false allarm....but people will mostly take the cheapest quote from the largest company. end up with a colander on their head instead of a helmet.

It is not the technology that is the problem.....it is the entire premiss of low cost deterent.

Those who are stolen from simply are not committed to preventing and prosecuting theft.

People persist with the detertent mentality........thus the security systems are poor most of the time.

Most systems I see are installed in a manner that plainly shows how it is installed and where the flaws are.

Many CCTV systems not only have the cameras in plain view, but show the images those cameras capture.....thus the half smart thief can see exactly what the cameras can and can not see.....deterent mentality......stupidity.

You can not defeat a security system if you have no idea what it is, where it is and if it is.

If you want to install effecfive security measures you have to be as committed and devious as the crims.

Remember you should have the home field advantage.

as far as disguises
For most crims this goes no further than a hoodie.
Modern facial recognition ( which is becomming acessable) will penetrate most disguises short of a full face mask.

As for GPS trackers
Some of the installations on trucks would have to be the most stupid and lazy possible......with the GPS tracker a bright yellow plastic box screwed to the rear subframe rail.
Hell I know several ways of disableing that even before I get out of my car and have a close look.

Remember most theves are not very smart and most of those who are stolen from are more reliant on their insurance than anything else.

cheers

Bantam,

The "installations on trucks" you have seen were surely fleet tracking systems for the purpose of management and maintenance, not security.
And of course you would know how to disable them with your eyes shut and one hand tied behind your back. LOL

"Locking them up for extended periods solves all this."
Yeah, sure! Lock them up with the pros, give them a free education into the ways and means of avoiding the traps (everyone in there will have a few tricks they use, some more effective than others - obviously!) and then send them back out after their "university session" better learned and more determined.

Jail is NOT a deterrent to most crims - simply an inconvenient interruption to their "occupation" - and allows them to upgrade their skills.

So what do you recon the solution is......just leave the crims alone and let em get on with it......serioulsy


Again we come back to this whole deterent thing, and the lack of comitment on those wanting to reduce crime.


Seriolsy most crims are not very clever......if your security methods are so crude and obvious that a crim can learn to get past em in prison.....they aren't worth much.



We keep comming back to this rediculous idea of displaying security measures.......systems need to be burtried deep, devious and the crim should no know what they did wrong till it is too late.

As for those that keep re-offending there is only one solution....keep locking em up........its called.......incarceration...if they spend half their life in prison.....that is half their life they where not theeving from good citizens.

cheers

There is, but our "civilised' western society isn't ready to line them up against a wall yet. Regrettably (O/T) it isn't with drug dealers/couriers either.

Sorry Allan, if some low life breaks into my home and gets caught I would want him or her locked up. Especially if that person is not a first time offender. We have worked hard to pay for it and I value my home and family and our safety. Kevin

I,m oldskool...give em a winchester tablet ..

Allan, the more scumbags we lock up, the cheaper per head it gets!!

Bottom line is: If a crim doesn't want to change his/hers mindset about taking stuff that isn't his/hers - what can be done?

Within the jails there are plenty of opportunities for crims to better themselves and to change their mindset about a life of crime.
But many don't want to take up those opportunities on offer, and many don't want to change their mindset.
They basically get a huge kick out of stealing, and want to continue that lifestyle choice.

I know a bloke who flew crims around America, as they were transferred long distances for various reasons. He told me, crims essentially fall into two groups;

1. Those who have done something wrong and regret every moment of that wrongdoing, and who rarely offend again, once they've done their time.

and 2. - Those who saw jail as the "price of doing business" and who had no qualms about the threat of time in jail. To them, jail was just another place to learn new tricks and to scheme up new criminal acts.

There are sex offenders in jail who refuse to take courses designed to prevent them from re-offending. The courses have to be voluntary, otherwise there's no way of distinguishing those who are genuinely remorseful and want to improve themselves, and those who just want to scheme their way out of jail. Obviously, those who refuse to undertake the courses have no intention of changing their behaviour.

The same applies to car thieves. They have to show they want to reform and change their behaviour and lifestyle, or it's a waste of time letting them out.
The amount of damage and costs and disruption caused by car thieves runs into hundreds of millions annually.

I know, I've had numerous vehicles stolen, and in every case, I still came out with losses that weren't covered by insurance - let alone the disruption caused by being without a vehicle, losing specialised tools and equipment, and getting a payout that was below the vehicles replacement value.

Here's a classic example (link below). A thief stole a good Landcruiser, rammed bollards at Pt Hedland airport, and stole two ticket machines containing around $5000.
He later set fire to the Cruiser, and caused a bushfire that cost serious money to put out, and which put lives and buildings at risk.
He caused $160,000 worth of damage to airport property, destroyed a $50,000 Landcruiser - and caused major disruption, inconvenience and cost, to a large number of people.

The initial total bill would run into several hundred thousand dollars - then there's the cost of tracking him down and catching him. Then there's the costs of supplying a duty lawyer to defend him, court research into his background, criminal history, psych reports and God knows what else - and then the judges/magistrates time in sentencing him.
If he was locked away, none of these costs and disruption would be incurred, and the only cost is feeding and housing him, until he decides to go straight.

And of course, if we had prisons like the Americans, the Chinese or the Russians, our prisoners would be out working their guts off on community tasks, to help defray their "housing costs". [:-)

Thief causes major damage at Pt Hedland airport

Cheers, Ron.

Yes Ron, a "Classic Example" indeed.

He runs up a hefty damages bill and then we add to it by putting him in expensive imprisonment. None of which solves his problem.

We used to gaol people for nicking a loaf of bread. We have moved on a little from that but still have some way to go in dealing with crimes.

There has to be a better way.

Yep, agree Allan. Education, opportunity, a bit of the OLD Aussie fair go for all (probably lost forever) would help, but there's no easy path. The American lock em up / shoot on sight approach hasn't solved their problems and won't help ours either. Same can be said with the "war" on drugs. Expensive failure which at some stage will have to be re-evaluated.

So what is the answer?

The states, the prison system, the police , the social welfare department havent got the answer, so what is the solution.

How many of the do-gooders out there have had their cars stolen, their homes broken into or the family members assaulted?

When it happens to you your perspective on jail changes..

The figures state that 3% of the American population is in jails.
What do you think would happen to the American crime statistics if they released them all?
American crime rates are nothing to brag about - but the scenario of letting all the scumbags go who currently reside in American jails, would see crime rates soar to unbelievable levels.
At least when they're inside, they have no opportunity to steal your car.

The comparison of locking up people for stealing a loaf of bread is not a viable comparison.
The times were different, people stole to survive then, just to live.
The majority of the early convicts proved they weren't lifestyle crims by ending up as upstanding citizens once released - without "courses" or soft "encouragements" to reform them.

However, today we have crims who have no inclination to ever obey laws, who prefer to constantly indulge in a lifestyle of crime.
We have the option of locking them up for longer - or of not locking them up at all.
The latter is not a viable option when someone is permanently intent on constant theft.

The police become discouraged when they try their best to catch "baddies" - only to see them released and on the streets again within a very short time - and carrying out all their old tricks.

If you have suggestions that will make crims change their mindset without jail time, please let us know the answer, as a lot of people would like to see that. No-one has produced the answer yet.

I'm with Ron. We West Aussies would love someone to come over and sort out our criminal problems. We have had a gutful of the little drop kicks breaking into homes, stealing keys and then the cars doing ram raids burning the vehicles and generally terrorising people and some people reckon give them a fair go.
You give fair people a fair go; the jails are full of people who have been given a fair go as juveniles and now they're in the big house.

Pointless argument given none of us has the knowledge or experience of thousands of people who work with crime and social problems but who as a group still have no magic solution. Suffice to say that not everyone has the same solid upbringing or opportunities in life (that's where the fair go comes in Rob in case you're still wondering) and if you don't think that has a considerable effect on people's choices and behaviour then it's time to do some reading. It's easy to be outraged (I'm regularly disgusted at particular acts and what I'd call "soft" or bewildering court decisions) but a whole lot more difficult to find a lasting answer.

My experience doesn't rate on the scale of Ron's, but to me it illustrates what is wrong with the system. My never-pranged pride and joy was nicked from a suburban shopping centre on a Saturday morning. Came out an hour later to find it gone, so on the batphone to the law. Gave them the rego and they said "yeah, that one has already been smashed and the perp is in custody". As everyone would realise, a vehicle isn't the same after extensive repairs but that's all you get(*). The 16yo perp - who had a longish history - got a 12 month bond. I can imagine that encouraging him to change his ways.

* actually, I got to keep the HUGE screwdriver he used as a door key and ignition key, but I lost a lot of tools from the boot - and the perp didn't take them.

Ron,

I think that the comparison of locking up people for stealing a loaf of bread is a very viable comparison and I thank you for validating it with your ....

"The times were different, people stole to survive then, just to live."
Then, when they were given food and the opportunity they "ended up as upstanding citizens once released."

I certainly AM NOT suggesting "going soft on them".
What I said was that we need to "find a better way". We are currently reactive to crime and we need to become proactive. Determine just WHY people are committing crimes of acquisition and find ways to diminish their motivation to do so. We will then have a better society and pay less for a penal system.

Society was not always this way. When I was a kid, no-one locked their doors, keys were left in vehicles, you could walk safely in the evenings. What has caused the change? I can think of some things, drugs for one and personally I would treat drug dealers as murderers, but I have no skills in criminology and look to learned persons to comment.

What I do yearn for is a society where my kids and grandkids can live safely and with the serenity that I had, without having half the population behind bars.

Allan, the non-reflective who nicked my vehicle summed it up well when the beak asked him why he keeps on doing it: "I was bored".

Well, when I was that age I always found things to occupy myself and avoided boredom, but not his way. Do we now have to hand-feed them with activities?

Well there you go Zippo......... he was bored. Society, and maybe his parents, have failed him.

You at that age were not bored. You had been raised well and in a society which enabled your interest. Your thief was not 'different', society is.

My kids were not bored, and I doubt that my grandkids will be bored. The reasons for this would not be difficult to identify.

Alan would that be because you bought them a PlayStation for Christmas ? LOL

The issue is a society breed one.
These people do not respect the law and have different morals and standards to the rest of us.
If you grow up in an environment with these views and standards, that is what you become.

A lot of these issues stem from the dysfunctional family units that our society propagates and the do good ( but well meaning) laws we have that encourage them.

Really, I think punishment has very little to do with why most people do not commit crimes. The reason I don't steal cars isn't because I might go to gaol if I did, it's because I don't want to steal cars. The only real solution to crime is to find the real reasons why it is committed. If there are people who simply like committing the crime, then they need to be separated from society. All other reasons can probably be addressed in some other way. Hitting people with a big stick just makes them stronger in a lot of cases.
Off topic, but in a conversation over a campfire with an Aussie sailor who had just done a stint of training on a Yank ship and he said a common question from the US sailors was "what are you in for?" The US armed forces are full of guys who are given the choice of prison time or armed forces service. I don't think that happens here, maybe it should?

More than half the jailed people in Wa are aboriginal, in for mainly drink/driving offences. Absolute waste of money. Easy to say that they deserve it. You go and try to live in a remote dysfunctional community where there are no jobs and conditions are appalling.

Before you start saying that its their fault....one word..CRAP!!!

I have been involved with working in these communities for 18 years and there is no way known to man that I would actually live in one. Strong traditional and family ties have dictated that they live in these areas. Boredom and poverty result in crime. Eliminate this and problem is lowered. Many communities had some great programs going that addressed these issues until govt departments pulled the pin. . Short sighted and the program wasn't in a well to do white neighborhood.

You cant tell me that the huge motor corporations haven't got the technology to stop one of their cars from being stolen!!! Govt should make it compulsory that anti-theft devices that actually work are mandatory..ABS, DSC,ETC,ETC..BUT NO FOOLPROOF ANTI-THEFT DEVICE? JOKE.

We keep comming back to this whole "deterent" mentality.......and it exists at every level from the home owner to the highest levels of government and accedemia.

We need to concentrate on identifying, apprehending and sucessfully prosecuting theft.

Nothing else will work without this happening first.

After you have caught and prosecuted the crims...then you can argue about what to do with them....but if you havn't got em...ya got nuthin'.


If you have them locked up you have a hope of rehabiltating those who will.
those who wont be rehabilitated...ya just have to keep locking them up to keep em out of the game.

But ya got to catche em first......detering them just don't do it.

cheers

And so we go on forever Bantam, do we?

Raise miscreants, apprehend them, sentence them, imprison them, parole them......... then start all over again.
And add in the next generation.

I'll put it in terms you hight perhaps identify with......
If you are manufacturing a particular product that regularly fails to satisfactorilly perform, do you persist with constantly repairing it, or do you examine the manufacture and revise the way you are making them?

Big fish

In wa and probably elsewhere, it has been mandatory for immobilizer to be fitted. What hasn't been highlighted in this thread is that part of the reason for this new technology is that the method of stealing has changed. Offenders are increasingly stealing keys, through break ins or home invasions.
This trial is designed to counter the theft of keys, which it is pretty hard for car manufacturers to do.

Alan

And so we go on forever Bantam, do we?

Raise miscreants, apprehend them, sentence them, imprison them, parole them......... then start all over again.



Indeed we do and have done for thousands of years...because nothing else works.

Unless wrong doing is consistently punished it will continue unabated.

There are certain people who simply will not, do right, at any level, unless there are clear and relaible consequences.....thus it is, thus it always was and thus it will ever be.

There has been no society on earth that has sucessfully found any other way......

Its not like any of these people are being forced into crime because they can not eat
It would also be the exrtreem minority that are coerced in to crime by any means in this country.

Those who commit crime in this country do so because they think they can get away with it.....IT IS that simple.

cheers

"Indeed we do and have done for thousands of years...because nothing else works."

So all those people who have been working on social programs, education, etc have just been wasting our dollars and their time? Thankfully societies have progressed FAR more than you seem to think Bantam. Simplistic approaches to complex issues rarely achieve much.

Yeh well that is typical baby out with bath water thnking.

Like any irradication programe in addition to pulling out the weeds, shooting the ferals, killing the mould or indeed incarcerating the crims, something has to be done to occupy the space where the undersirable was and to foster desirable desirable growth.

Otherwise all you are doing is providing a fresh clean environment for something just the same to put down roots and grow like a bastard.


This is an iron rule.....one that can not be broken....and applies to all reality.



nobody in their right mind would try and plant a garden in a lot infested with agressive weeds, without doing something about the weeds first.

Likewise nobody in their right mind would think that gardening consists only of killing weeds.




It is a complex matter, but without the first step the remaining measures are simply pointless....in fact may infact promote growth of the undesiragle thing.

If I just firtilised and cultivated an area infested with weeds.....all I would get is a newer, far more vigourous and healthier crop of weeds.

THIS is exactly what is happening.

Because there is not sufficient effort in identifying, capturing, posecuting and encarcerating criminals....ther remaining social programes in many cases foster growth in crime.

Removing the criminal is the weeding step.

Fear of consequence is the mulch that supresses weed growth.

The social programes are the planting, cultivation and furtilising.

There is actually more effort required in the last part, but without the first two, the cultivation by social programes is wasted.


If any part of the programe is under resourced the garden fails and becaomes a weed infested wasteland.

THEN you have to spend rediculous amounts of effort weeding again.

BUT everything hinges on incarceration and fear of consequence.

cheers

Oh Bantam......... "irradication"??
What are you going to do...... hit 'em with a Gamma Ray? haha.

And to think that thousands of experts on social systems, deterrence, prevention, recidivism, sentencing, jail etc have spent years of studying criminal behaviour when all they had to do is look to their botanical colleagues for answers. It's that simple - apparently. Paul Wilson obviously should have studied plant biology. It's quite astounding how often amateurs with little knowledge, qualifications and experience think they know better than the combined wisdom of others who have plenty of same, but no doubt it was ere the case and will ever be.

This thread has more than run its course but as Singapore and deterrence got a few mentions elsewhere I thought this might interest a few: http://www.expertguide.com.au/news/article.aspx?ID=292

Irradication of theft is no different to irradication of so many other things.

The rules and principles remain the same.....those who do not grasp thet there are certain fundamental rules ( unbreakable rules) that apply right across reality are in my opinion blind and thus so to their own disadvantege.

These rules are no less avoidable than the laws of phsyics.

The only thing that will keep any infesttation or infection under control is consistent effort.

It does not matter if it is.
crime
feral animals
weeds or bathroom molud

the rules and methods remain the same.....but there are always those who will try and tell us there is another way that avoids the unpleasant reality and the hard work.....or indeed that the problem simply is too big and can't be addressed.

Yeh we have all these doo gooders and achedemics with their limp wristed ideas.....then we have singapore with one of the lowest crime rates in the world...with a very similar country with one of the highest crime rates right next door.

As far as the death penalty and drug trafficing........that is a micro issue and an incredibly pin prick, small part of the greater justice and crime issue.

We are not discussing capitol punishment...that is a particular issue all of its own....and is more or less statistically insignificant.

As far as drug crime.
Now this will fire a few people up.

The most effective solution to drug crime is to legalise all illicit drugs an allow them to be sold commercially with very specific controlls.

That would make the whole thing not viable as a criminal enterprise and would suck the guts out of many large organised crime sindicates.

Historicaly the more recreational drugs have been regulated and the use prosecuted, the more concentrated and dangerous those drugs have become...and the higher the street price and thus the drug crime profit has become.

Drug crime profit is so incredibly high, there there will always be someone prepared to take the risk.

Particularly when the risk of apprehension is fairly low......contrary to the news reports and the border security shows......the detection rate for drug smuggling is fairly low.........world wide.

AND again the inconvienient truth is.....there is far more damage and cost to western society caused by the legal drug alcahol than all illicit drugs combined.

cheers

Oh and yess.......Irradication.........or do we want to preserve a remnant population of theves so they don't become extinct.




Oh yeh and those university qualified experts on crime.......particularly if they are american they came from upper middle class families that could afford to send them to university.....so how may of these criminoligists grew up with bakgrounds where theft and violent crime where realities in their life every day.

The closest most of these guys would have ever got to being a victum of serious crime would be having the pocket picked or their VCR stolen.......and after that they would have felt " violated" and needed counciling.

Yeh no wonder middle class shinny bum university professors don't grasp the significance of " fear of consequence"...probably never been truly affraid of anything in their life.




Yes and there are many communities all over the world where serious crime is pretty well unknown among the community.......island communities, religeous communities and many small towns.
If there is crime it usualy comes from outside.

Yeh, but in those communities people are braught up on the near certanty of being caught and definite fear of consequence.

Fear of being ostracised and driven out of the community.

Oh and don't forget......fear of an all seeing all knowing God that will punish you after you die.......Now that is fear of consequence and certainty of enforcement.

cheers

Hilarious Bantam.

So, together with the crims, now you want to "irradicate" (sic) anyone with a superior education!

And it is 'Eradicate' you illiterate ignoramus.

At Bantams request, the WA government has employed the use of a new police enforcement policy. All crimes will now be treated the same and this should see the elimination of the car stealing problem hence forth.

Deep Thought (DA) got it wrong. The answer was a small chook, not 42.

42 was not the answer the mice where looking for.......if you knew your Hitchhikers guide you would know that the earth was constricted specifically to find the answer....the experiment is still running.

cheers

Bantam,
no the Boa was constructed to constrict the 42 mice, it also kiiled the chook after it was constructed as a constrictor. At the time of it's departure from planet earth the chook was a lot smaller than it had previously been due to the constructed constrictor constricting it.

Now back I go and take another tab of acid.

Ya don't know the strory line from hitch hikers guide to the galaxy do you.

cheers

No, but I can write a new story line which in the mean time saved a few prisoners from the Bantam gallows as he is to busy worrying about a sci-fi comedy show.

There is on thing though, I do no the difference between constricted and constructed.

If ya going to worry about spelling.......go on a quizz show.

cheers

Nothing to do with spelling, it is to do with 2 words that don't have the same meaning. So ya better go back to kindy.

There is one side that certainly profits from crime regardless if victim or perpetrator..the lawyer..

I think that everyone on here would like to see crime reduced. How the hell do you rationalize from these posts that we don't want to see crime reduced? Sure, we have different ideas. The same as all the other people and professions that make a living from crime. No one has the answer yet and most of us react out of pure frustration. Especially if we have been the victim of a crime and the courts dismiss our case as trivial by giving the criminal an absurd penalty.

The court system, two tiered-one for the rich and famous, the other for the working class man , favors the criminal and his needs. The victims needs are irrelevant. Not in all cases but a hell of a lot.

Govts will always treat the general population with contempt...we are only here as a money making mechanism..

"To the Ron N's and loyal followers on this forum a simple question about your simple answer, exactly what is the evidence that your solution works and where can I find it?"

EXHIBIT A: Singapore.

I rest my case, yer honour.

Cheers, Ron.

How about Iraq under saddam?

There are many examples of unjust strict governments.

Mostly they are examples of what happens when the crims run the country.

And exactly what happens when you knock down a dominating weed infestation.

At least a paddock dominated by an infestation of a single weed looks like it has some order.......but only by surpressing all other weeds along with desirable spicies.

Remove that dominating weed, and all the other weeds will try to surpress the desirable spicies.

Like cleaning up a weed infested padock.

If you remove organised crime, you then need to come back and deal with the high population of minor crime that was previously surpressed......and keep comming at it consistently, before those inocent can prosper and choke out the crime.

cheers

I don't see anyone on this thread suggesting that the law should tread lightly Rob just a few suggesting that simplistic hang em high comments are (hopefully) unrealistic in a progressive society.

And what about those fencing contractors and their employees that this is currently their Job? What did they do Wrong?
The problem with a lot of the schemes for community service is getting them to do anything worthwhile, you are taking someone else's job, or income.
You need to find something that is hard but basically pointless.

Alan

And what about those fencing contractors and their employees that this is currently their Job? What did they do Wrong?

nothing...and they probely would not get the job anyway....because there is no money for them...and the job would remain undone.


We always get this cop out rubbish....it does not matter weather it is prison labour, work for the dole or stimulous money.

Its not the fact thet there is cheap labour...that is already paid for..being used...... it is what it is used for and who gets to profit from it.

If this welfare labour is used to do things that would not have other wise got done...there is no down side.

If this welfare labour displaces other workers....that is a problem......if the rich profit from this welfare labour..that is a problem.

But if this welfare labour......which is already paid for regardless if we use it or not..is used for things that would not otherwise get done.

what can possibly be wrong with that.

give em a bag and a stic and send em out whacking cane toads or something.

Bushland remediation.....road side rubbish collection.

There is heaps of stuff that simply does not get done...we are already paying them...lets put em to work.

cheers

Bantam

All i will say is that a lot of your ideas may make sense when viewed in isolation, but and it is a pretty big but, the implemtation is the challenge.
Yep, its free labour which is already paid for and could be used for things that would otherwise not get done.
The question you need to answer is who would decide what wouldn't get done, and why. Is it because of other choices that things aren't done, or because the funds just arn't there.
How would you propose that these projects are assessed so that contractors and their employees who are innocent of any wrong doing arn't disadvantaged.
Using your example
Road side rubbish collection - a lot of shire and councils employ people (not all i know). Give the shires access to free labour for this and it is not automatical that they will use the saved money to create employment.

There is only one choice about who decides this ...government.....because no one else has the power to...it is that simple.

It is plain and obvious that there are things, that simply do not get done......there are thousands of examples of things that have been done and would not have been done if it where not for these programes that currently exist and have existed in the past.

If you look at all the major capitol cities in this country......most of the stone work you see was at least partly done by convict labour......it simply would not have got done otherwise.

Many of our pioneer fathers where convicts and got their start working as convict labour.

During the great dipression there where lots of things constructed by those working for the dole......I can show you several stone walls, bridges and river revetments that have been clearly identified as work for the dole projects from the great dipression.

Even now most prisons have work programes that either take in commercial paying work or provide external labour.
Those prisoners who have half a brain are keen to get onto these programes.

There are many cases where prisoners have got jobs on release because they have developed skills and proved themselves doing prison labour.

I know a particular bowls club that employs professional green keepers like every other bowls club....but they have always used prison labour from the prison next door, to mow the footpaths and trim the hedges

I have a good friend who did something stupid......he paid for his stupidity by working for the government for 7 years.......5 years of that he spent on a prison farm.....grubbing roots and stumps out of a hill side 5 days a week.
He actually learned a lot in prison......he most certainly manages his money better ( there was specific training)...his only disapointment was he did not get the cert 3 in horticulture he hoped for.
He has been working as a mowing contractor for about 8 years now.

Yes there have been issues with prison labour conflicting with commercial interests.....but mostly they get jumped on pretty fast.

Prison labour IS a reality..and there should be more of it.

cheers

Here is an example of prisoner help. and from what I have heard they did a good job.

Prisoners help out Bowen farmers

Oh no!! Not the cane. Now you will have every bleeding heart jumping up and down.

Naughty Ron. Your conclusion re the Singapore stats MAY have some credibility but without knowing all the details it's hardly definitive. Were the laws stiffened in 2004? Perhaps Singaporeans are simply a more law abiding society? Quite possible that changing technology has had a major effect in the dramatic fall in their theft rate over the last decade. Just some of many possibilities. Cause/effect is rarely simple.

That said your WA figs are wrong if this report is accurate: http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/wa-top-state-for-car-thefts-with-a-vehicle-stolen-even-hour/story-fnhocxo3-1227131772720?nk=51667beb42f021aeb91cc24befbae720

"WA Police figures show 8496 cars were stolen in WA last year – averaging 23 every 24 hours. That’s down 7 per cent compared to the previous year but higher than in 2011-12 (8197 stolen vehicles), 2010-11 (7269 stolen vehicles) and 2009-10 (6245 stolen vehicles)."

So by my calcs thefts have risen 3.6% on fig 3 years ago (8197-->8496). Meantime the population and number of vehicles on the road have also increased. The interesting thing is the theft for parts/rebirthing - up 30%. I doubt GPS will have a great effect on that demographic.

Of course Singapore is a law abiding country......if you don't abide by the law they flog your sorry ass and stick it in the slammer.

They understand fear of consequence.

Lee kuan Yew.......must have got results, the people of Singapore kept re-electing him for 30 years.

Yeh , and they whack over 6000 crims on the backside every year.

Clear and tangable consequence to fear.

cheers

Don't move to Singapore Bantam.

Miss-spelling is a capital offence!!!!!!! LOL

Obviously Bantam's not a believer in a particularly well-known political adage which Singapore is an exemplar for: "It's the economy stupid!" . Taking a nation from poverty to wealth will tend to get you elected consistently despite your many personal and political flaws and laws.

That's it i am moving to North Korea so I can feel safe and be protected by a proactive government.

Then again I probably won't have a vehicle to get stolen. Win, win.

"Don't go to singapore,
they'll cut your hair in singapore.

Yeh there is a very good reason the economy in singapore is good.

People can get on with making a quid without worrying about having it stolen.

It would be interesting to compare, Singapore with neibouring Malasia......very similar cultrual background and ethnic make up...in fact Singapore used to be a part of Malasia.

BUT malasia has a skyrocketing crime rate so high that the government no longer reports it to the UN and Kuala Lumpur is recognised as one of the most dangerous cities in the world and Singapore on the other hand has one of the lowest crime rates in the world.
The straight of Malacca is one of THE most dangerous stretches of water in the world, known to be infested with pirates......comming mostly from Malasia.

Lack of corruption, Consistent enforcement and fear of consequence...its a recipie that simply does not fail.

cheers

I may be wrong but since I left school corporal punishment has been banned and the situation has steadily deteriorated since. if we got the cane we also had to take the wrath of our parents. How things have changed!!
Ian

Hell there was a lokal police sergent in my brothers day that used to give young hoodlums a choice.......

Do you want the thumpin' from me or to I take you home to your old man?

Many made the smart choice and their old man knew no different and they walked away wiser and without a criminal record.

Community service also is not a new thing although it was often off the record.

"Come ere son, I wan'a talk to you......You blew up Mrs Jones letter box cracker night......we know it was you, son......NOW...YOU are going to buy Mrs Jones a new letter box and YOU will be weedin' her front garden for a month.
Its that OR we tell your old man OR we have enough evidence to charge you with willfull distruction."


As Lee Kuan Yew said.....corporal punishment did me no harm.

Fear of consequence......a lot of people simply are not smart enough to grasp that lack of personal discipline and respect for others causes a break down in society, thus lowering the living standard for all.

But they understand a boot up the bum.

cheers

Fair enough Ron. Just looked at the WA Police Annual Figures which suggests the ABC report is wrong.

I don't know enough about law and justice in Singapore to comment but somehow I think I'd prefer our system overall.

I wouldn't believe any stats supplied by a police force in any state. They are manipulated to always make the cops look like they are constantly improving their war on crime. Figures often worked out in association with govt statisticians.

Regardless of the figure..give the mongrels a good flogging, few years working in a remote area and a 5 year good behaviour bond. If you don't agree with this then give the mongrels YOUR car so they don't have to nick mine!!!

I don't agree Bigfish, but I recognise the argument well.

Having been one who was responsible for the interrogation and compiling of reports on crime stats for a district I would also have to disagree. It is a very simple procedure for the gathering of crime stats; all these stats are direct from crime reporting Police computer programs. The way the stats can be manipulated are more by the way groups will only select certain stats or the stats that favour their argument. So if the Police say there has been a reduction in reported assaults in a particular area then that is the fact. But what has caused that reduction? Was it good work by the Police? Maybe not. As an example I have seen big reductions in crime simply by a new Magistrate. I have seen increases in crime simply by more media attention thus more reporting by the victims. And blah blah blah. It can be a very interesting exercise looking at stats. But very frustrating when management refuse to acknowledge certain trends that need immediate action. Kevin