gel batteries under bonnet

Submitted: Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 10:21
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all this stuff on splitting a 200 series landcruiser batteries is overwhelming.

I have made the decision to do so

option 1 ( but not prefered at this stage)
fit and split using One(1) NZ 70 as cranking and one (1) 100ah as auxillary

or can this be done
Fit and split two (2) AGM fullriver.....
1 being a HC75 and the other a DC105 (or maybe 115 if space allows)

pro's and cons with later?




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Reply By: Frank P (NSW) - Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 10:46

Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 10:46
In my googling to answer your question on your other topic, I found a reference that said Fullrivers were not suitable for under-bonnet applications due to the high temperatures there.

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Follow Up By: Member No 1 - Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 08:10

Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 08:10
frank...you have a link to that ?...i cant find it
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 09:20

Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 09:20
Last paragraph on this page.

Admittedly a re-seller, and, errr, it's "not recommended" not "unsuitable". But I wouldn't mind betting if you made a warranty claim on an under-bonnet installation you'd likely be unsuccessful.

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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 09:28

Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 09:28
Here's another one. About half way down.

I presume if retailers are saying this the info comes from the distributors or the factory.
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Follow Up By: Member No 1 - Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 09:43

Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 09:43
they specifically relate to deep cycle..not he HC.....but I get the point.

irks me tho, that Fullriver web site doesnt seem to be up front (IMO) with the info.

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Reply By: CSeaJay - Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 10:46

Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 10:46
Hi
I had your latter sample, with a fullriver 105 on the driver side. Split with a redarc isolator.
Worked a treat..for a while
At the time when I researched this I was warned about AGM batteries not liking the heat under bonnet. I thought I'd give it a go notwithstanding. It lasted three years, and at a bushcamp when power was down
I discovered one flat and FAT battery.
So as far as charging and the electronics of the setup goes it will be fine, the car turns over happily with only one battery. But after being warned and now experiencing it myself, the AGM is not the best choice under bonnet. I have now replaced it with a wet cel deep cycle.

Oh and by the way, I actually purchased three fullrivers at the same time. Two went into the trailer. They are well ventilated and still going strong. The battery itself is a good AGM.
Hope this helps,
CJ
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Follow Up By: CSeaJay - Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 10:48

Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 10:48
Correction, I just saw you are suggesting two fullrivers. I had only the aux as AGM.
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Follow Up By: MEMBER - Darian, SA - Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 11:59

Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 11:59
Just on that under bonnet application for AGM's - Century is one manufacturer that declares warranty void if used under bonnet.
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Follow Up By: Member No 1 - Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 08:10

Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 08:10
so why the hell do they make a 900 CCA battery but you cant install it under the bonnet??? doesnt make sense does it?

looks like it will need to be wet type going by answers below.
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 09:11

Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 09:11
There are plenty of situations where a 900 CCA cranking battery is required that is not under a car bonnet
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Reply By: Member - bungarra (WA) - Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 11:05

Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 11:05
Not that overwhelming really as the 200 starts quite happily just on one of the OEM...I ran on that for a few weeks before I got around to changing that Start battery

On my 200 I did the following

Split the batteries by totally removing the parallel positive lead

1) Installed an Optima Gold Top D31A as the cranking battery...this gives 900CCA and is a 75ah deep cycle as well...although the deep cycle part is not relevant to me as it is now the dedicated start battery

2) Installed Excide ST27DC105 as the aux. (this is a NZ70 physical size)......this will quite happily crank the engine if needed

3) Work in progress is to fit a momentary switch override to crank from the AUX if needed.....just haven't got around to it as yet

4) Redarc DCDC25 charger (with solar input option) in front of the grill to manage the AUX......decided that a better option than a diode tricking the alternator to keep AUX fully charged

have attached some pics to show where I put the DCDC charger........


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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 18:31

Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 18:31
We have three batteries, all of them are Allrounders and they are split in a single for crank and two in parallel for accessories and with a redarc 200 amp isolator they can be switched to the crank for extra cranking or winching as required. We have talked about installing a battery management system but have held off thinking about water problems.

With the redarc mounted behind the grill is there any concern with deep water crossings? On a recent Balfour crossing we had water lapping the windscreen. We have a 100 series and the mounting could be the same.

May I say that we are not into hooning through the bush, charging into water nor "playing" in mud. Quite the opposite. We will go around if needed but we do like a challenge.

You mentioned a momentary switch for isolator control. I have not used a momentary switch because when winching I want all batteries in circuit and I may need both hands for car control.

Thanks
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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 18:43

Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 18:43
Good job - bye the way.
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Follow Up By: Member - bungarra (WA) - Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 18:50

Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 18:50
Hi
I looked long and hard at the position of that Redarc and I was satisfied that its position is ok (its actually quite high up if you look closely)

Certainly at that height any water crossings should be whilst moving forward and the bow wave and a "dousing" certainly will not hurt it I am sure

If your not moving forward and you have water at that height there is bigger issues to worry about than that item

Yes we can all plan a crossing that does not intend to rise above the pre walked height and chosen path ......but I have never forgotten a return crossing in the NT I did a few hours after going through.....water depth hadn't changed...the light pattern did under the rain forest canopy and so my driving line altered slightly...it was windscreen wiper depth and so close to losing my bow wave I was nearly in serious sh**

Hopefully when I winch the motor will be running.....the momentary switch is to make sure I can start it if the winch has pulled the start battery down and I stall it in driving/winching.......or it wasnt running when I winched

I debated wiring it to the AUX but decided the alternator on the start battery and the winch off there was they way to go
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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 20:13

Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 20:13
Always a worry when the water is over the bonnet. Been in water that was a foot deep in the cabin of the truck (see below) that was one of the many that I drove as a recovery mech, driver and offsider in Nashos.

Our winch cables are also run to the main battery but the positive only connected as required.

It isn't a big issue with the motor being sparsely flooded. Helps being diesel and having a well sealed snorkel and extra water proofing done. But that shouldn't happen because, as you said, you should be moving forward. I also use a water blind what the water depth is expected to be over the tops of the wheels. Well we plan to and I understand how you can find a "hidden" deep spot, so the rule is flexible.

From a TV show I believe the innards of the Redarc box are water proofed so it may be okay. We are looking at the box being installed in the cabin. An option that we have not ruled out as yet. Besides it's all working fine as is and maybe the controller is not needed.

Cheers and Merry Christmas

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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 22:36

Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 22:36
bungarra,
Just wondering what you're using for short circuit protection?
In a front end crash, you won't want the cables to short and start a fire.
Cheers
Phil
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Follow Up By: Member No 1 - Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 08:12

Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 08:12
mmm can I afford optima's
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Follow Up By: Member - bungarra (WA) - Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 08:31

Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 08:31
Hi Phil

Cant see a problem with the wiring there at all......

the circuit is completely protected with fast acting circuit breakers at both batteries and so in the event of a front end or any collision for that matter the only "live" point is at the batteries terminals along with every other device both OEM and add on's at the battery

secondly the only thing standing between the DCDC charger and the engine bay is a flimsy radiator bracket...a mixture of thin pressed steel for rigidity and some dense plastic molding........Any high end front end collision is soon going to push all that back....well into batteries and wiring even "unmodified" vehicle standard ex factory

cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - bungarra (WA) - Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 08:35

Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 08:35
Member # 1

I paid $349 delivered to WA from the East !....a huge discount when priced locally here

so shop around.........
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Follow Up By: Member No 1 - Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 08:51

Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 08:51
how did you get a D31 under the bonnet?
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Follow Up By: Member - bungarra (WA) - Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 10:53

Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 10:53
Optima D31A is actually smaller all round and only a fraction higher than the OEM battery....very easy fit
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Follow Up By: Member No 1 - Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 11:32

Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 11:32
but the Optima D31 battery is 325Lx171x238...thats bigger isnt it?

I think the battery trays are only 315L or something like that?
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Follow Up By: Member - bungarra (WA) - Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 12:30

Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 12:30
Make sure you are talking the same battery

I wrote that it was Optima Yellow (Gold) Top D31A

That is what I installed and as stated previously fits sweet.

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Follow Up By: Member - bungarra (WA) - Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 12:33

Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 12:33
Here is a Link

http://optimabatteries.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Group-D31A-YellowTop.pdf

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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 12:39

Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 12:39
Gday MN1,
Apart from the heat, Full River AGM is current limited. - Read on the side of the 105 - it will tell you to charge at no more than 21Amps. Your 160A Landcruiser alternator is capable of putting a lot more into it and the battery will lose capacity with time as it vents.
My preference is to use a 100Ah marine battery as the drivers side auxillary, and an Overlander for the cranker - both wet cell and both very cheap. If you still live in Adelaide - can get them from this mob at Glynde:
www.batterydiscounters.com.au
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 12:57

Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 12:57
I think Phil's suggestions are pretty good.
Fullrivers are good batteries but do have limitations and are exxy.

Heat is a killer of batteries, especially AGM's which are typically specified to 50c max. (including Fullriver).
The temperature next to the batteries in my Troopy measured at 70c on a day of 27c ambient and little load, which is why I installed a heat shield.

Incidentally, your thread heading said "gel" batteries, although you then referred to AGM's. Probably a slip but do not even think of putting Gel's in an engine compartment.
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Follow Up By: Member No 1 - Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 08:28

Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 08:28
Thanks Phil and Allan

Yes a slip allan...

I got my camper fullrivers from them Phil at a good price, so will go back to them again.

Still cant fathom why they build Hi crank (HC Series) batteries with the spill saying they are suiatble for 4WD if they are not really suitable for under bonnet applications?...I hate misleading info or that which is not clearly spelt out in the sales brochures!!
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Reply By: Member - Steve R (NSW) - Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 14:42

Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 14:42
Hi Member No 1
I have a 200 series also and have spit the batteries. Bought 2 Supercharge batteries - passenger side is a MF95D31L (810 CCA) and driver side a Sea Master M7M70 (720 CCA). $374 fitted. These are connected to a Redarc 1225BCDC charger. Works fine.
Regards
Steve
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Follow Up By: Member No 1 - Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 09:01

Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 09:01
thanks Steve

another supercharge user....
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 14:21

Monday, Dec 15, 2014 at 14:21
Add me to that list - a Supercharge Allrounder flooded dual purpose deep cycle/crank battery under the bonnet where it does get hot.

I have seen a measured BATTERY temp in that battery of 62 degC

Cheers
Frank

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Reply By: Peter_n_Margaret - Tuesday, Dec 16, 2014 at 00:03

Tuesday, Dec 16, 2014 at 00:03
I have had 3 batteries in the OKA in the 10 years I have owned it (not under the bonnet).
1. Twin wet cells, unknown brand lasted 2 years.
2. Very large Calcium wet cell, supposedly "4WD" construction. Lasted 3 years.
3. 120Ah Fullriver HGL standby power battery. Now 5 years old and going strong.

My theory.....
AGM construction provides superior physical support for the plates and stops them from being beaten to death by the corrugations.

Cheers,
Peter
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Follow Up By: Member No 1 - Tuesday, Dec 16, 2014 at 07:45

Tuesday, Dec 16, 2014 at 07:45
thats appears to be the way to go...but not for under the bonnet situations.

Ta Pater

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Reply By: Slow one - Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 11:24

Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 11:24
#1,
there is an agm battery that is guaranteed for under bonnet use and the warranty is 3.5 years.

They have different sizes and either cranking or crank/ deep cycle configurations. Designed in Australia and manufactured in Korea.

Here's an ebay link.

SSB battery link.
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Follow Up By: Zippo - Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 12:09

Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 12:09
Reading that it sounded like the answer to a maiden's prayer. That is, until I saw: "REGULAR CHARGE CURRENT 8.0 Amps". Now it isn't clear how "regular" relates to "maximum", but it did raise a red flag for me.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 13:29

Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 13:29
And it raises my 'Red Flag' that this innovative technology is not prominent on established technology news sites.

I would like to carefully read their legal warranty document.
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Follow Up By: Slow one - Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 15:31

Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 15:31
I hadn't noticed the 8 amps so I gave SSB a bell and not the reseller.

They stated the 8 amp charge rate was for maintaining the battery with a charger and the rate was between 8 and 20 amps with 20 amps the max.

I asked about the alternator and they said no problems at all as long as the charge voltage was between 13.4 and 14.4 volts.

I then rang our local battery mob that sells them and his response was. I have been in batteries for many years and have always told others not to put agm's under the bonnet. He then went on to say that they do warrant them under the bonnet and with the way the battery manufacturing industry is, we will be inundated with rapid change.

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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 16:04

Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 16:04
......."we will be inundated with rapid change."

I look forward to that!

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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 16:51

Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 16:51
The future is already here.

It is spelled L I T H I U M.

:-)
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Follow Up By: Slow one - Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 17:13

Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 17:13
Alan,
Yes, I look at rapid change that improves any component. I never liked the T model ford much anyway.

Yep! I have a battery pack that sits in my hand, weighs nothing and can start my vehicle with a flat battery. Many car transporters are using them. Rapid change I guess, although they have been on the market for awhile.

I wish we could go back to the good old days of crank handles LOL. I still have a dicky thumb from one of those gems when I had a few to many to drink.

Here is another agm that is warranted under the bonnet.

AGM deep cycle under bonnet battery



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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 18:29

Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 18:29
Frank,
My understanding is that Lithium batteries of all variants do not like heat any more than AGMs. In fact heated Lithiums can react violently.
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Allan

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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 18:43

Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 18:43
Allan,

Yes, you may be right. My comment was a generalisation and a little flippant, though I do believe, in essence, what I said.

I will try to get some definite info on operation of LiFePO4 in hot environments and post back here.

Cheers and Happy Christmas

Frank


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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 18:47

Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 18:47
Nuthin wrong with a bit of flippancy Frank, especially at this time of year. LOL

The lead-acid technology has been with us for a very long time and we may well expect a change for the better.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 18:56

Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 18:56
Slowie,

Crank handles I can live without, but I have made a note of that Ultimate for when I next need to replace my AGMs. Thanks mate.
Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Slow one - Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 19:56

Thursday, Dec 18, 2014 at 19:56
Alan,
no worries. It's just that times are a changing and I struggle with it big time.

I just hope #1 does his homework and chooses wisely.

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Follow Up By: Member No 1 - Friday, Dec 19, 2014 at 08:10

Friday, Dec 19, 2014 at 08:10
that battery has an impressive fact sheet

but... is it genuine

but it does have a 48 month warranty...
Slow One......decisions decisions....and I hoped this was going to easy...lol

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Follow Up By: Bigfish - Friday, Dec 19, 2014 at 09:12

Friday, Dec 19, 2014 at 09:12
Picking up new Pajero next week and have started ordering bits and pieces ready for it. Went with the Redarc bcdc1220 and a 12 VOLT 130AH 1000CCA SSB DRYFIT BATTERY AGM DEEP CYCLE. I have had a lithium SSB in my motorcycle for a while and it is brilliant. Battery was about $290 delivered from 4WD EXTREME in Adelaide. It will be going in the 3rd row seat compartment after they are removed. 31KGS is a lot of weight sitting on a tray mounted to a guard and firewall. Too hot under the bonnet for an AGM as well in my opinion. I believe this battery is also made from the heat proof housing material.

Time will tell.
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