An Insurance Hypothetical

Hi Val,

While I probably need to brush up (no pun intended) on my bush lawyering skills I have always been under the impression that you had to be doing it for reward i.e. a tag along operator, or in a situation such as an incorporated 4WD club who would probably have their own insurance umbrella to cover any public liability issues.

Obviously I could have the whole thing backwards but my impression was that as long as you were just having a trip away with a bunch of mates it was each persons responsibility as an individual.

I shall now retire to chambers to consider my verdict, figuratively speaking.....LOL

Cheers
Pop

It's probably more of a question to a lawyer rather than insurance. An insurance policy would come into operation only if there was a legal liability on the part of the "organiser".

If the invitation was along the line of " hey we're going fishing next week do you want to come", my gut feeling is there would not be any liability unless you personally caused the the damage or injury. If someone tripped and hurt themselves that would be their problem. On the other hand if your boat caught fire and injure occurred, there would be some liability involved.

If the invitation was a bit more formal and you were projecting yourself as an expert in the area you were travelling, there could be grounds for liability. In all cases everyone has a duty of care for themselves and can't simply blame others for their own misadventure.

Cheers
Jon

Gidday

Regardless of what we might think or believe the law to be, if somebody has a grievance they can usually find a lawyer who will take their case.

I imagine there wouldn't be an organisation anywhere these days, whether a business or some sort of club run by volunteers that would not operate under some sort of disclaimer.

And that doesn't stop people sueing.

personal responsibility is an alien concept to many.

Cheers

Our Karavan owners club started out as just an email group of a few people swapping notes and occasionally someone would coordinate a camp. That was pretty much an invitational kind of thing, just a few mates getting together, and no-one thought about insurance.

The group grew to about 50 vans. At this stage someone sought advice from a lawyer in their family about risk, liability and insurance. The scenario presented to the Qualified One was

"If property is damaged or persons injured as a result of our activities at one of our informal, camps, who would be liable?"

The answer was that every attendee would be personally and collectively liable. The injured party could sue individuals, taking everything from everyone until their loss had been satisfied or the money run out. ie, bankruptcy of individuals was a possible outcome.

So that would be my answer to your question, Val.

We were advised to get public liability insurance as a group. To do that we had to incorporate as an association, which we did, and we are now insured through an umbrella association of similar clubs.

Cheers

This same sort of issue has been raised on a Jet Ski Facebook page that I follow. They use to allow people to organise trips and you could join the "event" on the facebook page. However the moderators became a wear that if it was an organised "event" (even though no money changed hands)...the facebook page, moderators, and the event organisers could become liable if there was an accident. See following notice they now have on their page.

"Due to the HIGH RISK of litigation to the event organizer of any ride from this Facebook Page, there will be no permission granted to members to create events. Rides can only be organized between your personal friend's of your own Personal Facebook Page. You can talk about rides I just strongly suggest for your own protection do not gather/organize/create the event on this page."

There are people out there who are a lot smarter than me, and would be able to advise if this is fact or fiction. It is the world we live in....some one always looking for some one else to blame and make money from.

My understanding is that we all have responsibility at common law for the safety of our fellow man. Beyond that every circumstance depends entirely on its merit. If I invite people into my home I have a greater duty of care than perhaps if I invited them to dinner at the pub. From an insurance perspective most Home and Contents policies offer some level of liability cover both at and beyond the home. The concept of people bringing actions against others for seemingly frivolous events is largely urban myth now (in this country at least).

Gday Val,

Just deny inviting them and if they want to push the issue, have them charged with stalking! LOL

Cheers

There are three groups of people in the world;

1/ Us (anyone who is not an insurance company or lawyer),
2/ Insurance companies, and
3/ (Smart) Lawyers.

Now, I am not suggesting one group has it over the other, or is any better or worse. But rest assured when it comes to liability and insurance issues. Aggrieved parties will hire a smart lawyer to prosecute their case, and insurance companies will look for somebody to compensate them for any losses for its underwriting activities, sometimes successfully, other times not.

It’s a mine field!

Not that it answers your question, other than to say, tread cautiously and take advice, coincidently, from a lawyer. Who most likely will suggest liability insurance, coincidently, from an insurance company.

And there we have it, the three groups of people.

I can’t help but feel insurance companies and lawyers have a lot to answer for!

Cheers, Baz – The Landy (tongue-in-cheek, sort of)

Not a Lawyer but a little bit involved in Insurance.
In all cases the party that suffered injury or property damage must prove negligence by the person or organisation that they consider caused the injury or property damage.
There is a lot of protection (in NSW at least) under the civil liability act that protects volunteers acting in good faith and within their scope of duties. Any gross or criminal negligence would more end up in the criminal courts not the civil courts and thus no insurance cover even if you did have an insurance policy.
Also there is a duty for the injured party for their own actions and if the cause was obvious than the injured party may be deemed responsible even if it was considered risky.
There is also a provision that you cannot sue if you where involved in a risky or sporting event and was injured.
In regards to the injury caused by the extension cord ( as long as it was considered a hidden danger ), I cannot see how they could blame the owner of the cord as I would see the "organiser" being at fault for not having risk management plan in place for the event.
Also the courts would consider the "duty of care" for a bunch of blokes having a "get-to-gether a lot less than someone organising the Royal Easter Show.

Honky

This sort of thread got me thinking about my younger days when I used to go to motorbike rallies out in the boondooks. Most of these events were organised by a particular club or group of clubs with a special interest. There was hardly a rally where someone didn't get injured, either in the gymkhana events or drunken stupidity (and Jesus were there some clangers!!).

this was the 80's and I assume there was some form of public liability ?, however it would be a brave insurance broker or agent who would write one of these.... it was almost a given that someone would:

a) fall in a fire (drunk)
b) fall off a bike (drunk)
c) get into a fight (usually drunk)
d) run into someone else's bike
e) ruin a bike (burnouts / wheelies / donuts / etc) or
e) "hey watch this" - which would lead to one of the above...

A couple of times the Ambulance had to come into some remote spot to haul someone out..

Noone thought of public liability much in those days, probably couldn't organise half the stuff these days......

Back in the old days before all this insurance do-do, our caravan club used to run a safari every year for a couple of weeks in late Sept Oct wandering around W A.
We loved it.
Now days you tell your mates you are going away for a couple of weeks and if you happen to follow us that's ok.
It has made it hard for the newer members.
rob J

Really haven't got a clue about liability because there are far too many possible scenarios and my knowledge of the law and negligence/responsibility in such cases is minimal. Undoutedly there are many scenarios which could conceivably involve a level of liability, particularly where a debilitating injury is involved.

This is relevant though. "Under Australian Tort law damages for negligence may be sought from those at fault, providing that:
A duty of care must be found to exist.
The duty of care must be breached.
Damage or injury, not too remote, must result from the breach."

This could easily apply when you are assisting another 4WDer out of a bog for example.

A recent cycling incident might be of interest. It involved insurance. Cyclist sues friend

Far be it from me to suggest that where insurance is involved the likelihood of legal action increases, although anecdotally I suspect this is probably true.

I guess the best we can do is operate in good faith and take due care. Until we have an affordable, universal no-fault insurance scheme to take care of seriously injured people like our mates across the 'dtch' then the law will continue to be the only recourse in some circumstances.

Some interesting issues raised, thank you all. The scenario where a small group of friends grows into a bigger group and eventually becomes an incorporated body is a familiar one. In that situation legal advice and insurance are easily arranged as there are many precedents to follow. There is also the time factor; as group members get to know each other they can collectively make rules to guide the group, and individuals can do their own risk assessment to decide who they feel comfortable associating/travelling/doing anything with - and who might be trustworthy in the event of things going pearshaped (though judgements in that area could be full of surprises).

However with rapidly changing technology, in particular social media like Facebook, groups can form (and implement actions) very quickly. Even this site offers a facility for arranging trips with others who often would be total strangers. Where an event is arranged online or "remotely" participants have little chance of assessing other participants or likely prevailing circumstances and hence little chance to do their own risk assessment let alone get legal or insurance advice. A familiar variant of this scenario would be when solo travellers meet with others on the road and decide to travel together for a few days, perhaps to do some more difficult or remote tracks.

In some ways its a pity that these types of issues need to be canvassed, but then life is never risk free. But it could be useful to be aware of risks that can come from unexpected quarters.

Cheers,

Val.

John

One of the issues with insurance is that it gives some one to sue that is able to pay up. In some of the cases set out here if i was to sue some one who i felt had breach their duty of care, if successful it would not matter what the financial outcome as they probably would not be able to pay up. In fact they would probably declare bankruptcy and i would get very little.

But if that same person is insured, the insurer is taking the financial liability, now it is worthwhile suing as the insurance company has huge finacial resources. But importantly they often dont view the case as right vs wrong, but as a financial transaction, i.e it is going to cost x amount to fight and we may still loose, so lets just pay out y amount and settle.

So while insuring may mitigate liability I think it has also increased the amount of litigation as it is more finacilaly worthwhile than suing you or me.

Alan

It's a bit like that "not funny now" Carlton Mid ad where all the footy players and their wives/partners all arrive at the same resort (allegedly independently).
What a coincidence that they all chose the same place at the same time.
Perhaps that is the way to beat the insurance issues.

Here's how it works.
Bloke A says to bloke B that he's going to Place 1 for the period x to y.
Bloke B says not a bad idea, I'll do the same trip at the same time but does not tell bloke A that he's doing it, he tells bloke C and so it goes on.
Eventually you have Blokes A to Z all going to the same place at the same time but if there's no joint planning there is no collusion or organised planning, it is not a group excursion.

The fact that they all arrived at the same place at the same time is purely coincidental.

Try telling that to the Insurance mobs and see how you get on.

Disco.

So, does the Exploroz annual gathering have insurance ??

What is the difference between having a camping weekend with 6 friends or 40 friends ?

If 30 people just happen to turn up to the same place for a weekend, it's OK, but if they communicate that via a website, it's an organised gathering and someone could be held accountable for an accident ??

If people think of these sort of things, we'll play it safe and sit at home of a weekend and watch tellie !!

Its been an upsetting question for a long time Val , and the answer is essentially no , but anythings possible - despite having the best lawyers create an unbustable contract there are teams right now trying to do just that in the case of Victorias East/West link road contract as they smell the potential 1 billion compensation.

For various reasons I keep good records and on the 4wd_Out_of _Melbourne site on may 25 2002 at 9:05 this question was raised and I believe contributed to a significant lost of site support as for a while trips were effectively banned from being discussed because of an over the top response to liability issues.

I am currently organizing 3 trips but I won't spend much time here on the actual subject as its now history , but its a reason though why sites like this and many other areas have disclaimers and "I accept " buttons etc.

At that time no single case was shown to exist, and fortunately we have moved on to have "good Samaritan legislation" which makes it less likely again.
If your getting paid , tour operator , in a comp event or you act in a manner to the effect of saying "Do it my way, or get lost" then of course that changes things.

Your question made by check my response in 2002 and it looks like I haven't changed my position.
My reponse then was approximately as below .

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The first thing and insurance salesman does when he sees you is to tell you about the house that burned down just a few streets way.

But today there is a chance that ->

1/ I will win Tatts
2/ Die in car accident
3/ Will be sued for a trip I organize
4/ Trade my Patrol for a Toyota.

There always a remote possibility of the above happening , but I don't think I will re-organize my life accordingly.